toilet flapper closes too fast

fritzgardenMay 27, 2010

a 5 y.o. AS 4396 w/Fluidmaster guts.

The flapper is closing too fast, and I think, always has.

There is a captured donut of polyfoam (of some kind) right on top of the flapper.

The chain is as tight as I can make it, less then a 1/4" before action.

The take fills to less than 1/2" below the overflow.

Could the donut be water logged, or should I try to add another?

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homebound

Try moving the foam float lower on the chain, or just replace the flapper.

    Bookmark   May 27, 2010 at 8:24PM
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asolo

Fluidmasters cost, what....ten/fifteen bucks? Replace the whole thing and be done with it.

    Bookmark   May 27, 2010 at 8:44PM
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fritzgarden

the foam float is as low as it can go.
maybe as asolo said

    Bookmark   May 27, 2010 at 8:48PM
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homebound

Why replace the entire flush valve? All you need is a new flapper, not an extra project involving removal of the tank.

    Bookmark   May 28, 2010 at 3:06PM
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fritzgarden

What will a new flapper do for me? This one is clean doesn't look worn, fits tight, goes up and down easily.
It seems that it should stay open longer for a full flush, but I don't see what a new one would do in that light.

    Bookmark   May 28, 2010 at 7:38PM
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pelican

"What will a new flapper do for me?"

It will make your toilet work, that's what. You asked for advise on how to fix it, and you received it. Spend $4 and replace it.

    Bookmark   May 29, 2010 at 9:09AM
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homebound

BTW, all this is assuming the water level in the tank is not too low. When full, it should be about 1" or so below the top of the overflow tube.

    Bookmark   May 29, 2010 at 9:28AM
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fritzgarden

water level is 1/2" below overflow.

On 2nd look, I'm not sure if the flapper closes too soon or the tank isn't emptying fast enough. Seems when I watch the job, it varies between the two choices.
It seems to lack enough suck.

    Bookmark   May 29, 2010 at 5:42PM
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fritzgarden

let me add that the other toilet on the first floor has never had this problem. It kicks butt
It is a slightly newer Kohler than the AS upstairs.

    Bookmark   May 29, 2010 at 6:04PM
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homebound

Ok, then. If the tank is emptying too slowly, it's one of two things (one easy, the other more of a pain): A) the hole under the rim are obstructed, so you pole them open with a piece of a coathanger (the holes go through the rim at a sideways angle). That's the easy one. B) Alternatively, something is caught at the base of the toilet. You can try a closet auger to hopefully break it up, but if it's a piece of plastic (eg. toy, razor, bottle cap, plastic "thingy", etc.) you have to remove the toilet and remove it.

    Bookmark   May 29, 2010 at 7:38PM
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fritzgarden

would I be able to see deposits or whatever built up on the rim holes or should I just go ahead a give a poke. They look quite clean and our water is low in minerals.
I have a sneaking suspicion I'm gonna be re-waxing the beast

    Bookmark   May 29, 2010 at 9:28PM
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weedmeister

Does the water go all the way down when the flapper is open during the flush cycle? The flapper is held open by an air bubble that is inside the flapper. Suction holds it closed. Without the air bubble, the flapper will close early or will not open completely.

    Bookmark   May 29, 2010 at 10:36PM
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fritzgarden

no, the water gets about 1 to 2 " above the floor and it seems to vary.

    Bookmark   May 29, 2010 at 11:28PM
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busboy

With the water turned off try a new flapper and a bottle of lime away slightly diluted poured directly into the tank outlet. Let it sit overnight. Try the simple things first.

    Bookmark   May 30, 2010 at 3:42PM
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fritzgarden

new flapper (Home Depot, not exact replacement as it's some AS custom thing)
Lime Away overnight. No change.
New flapper has one hole on the bottom.
The OEM flapper has a hole on the bottom and in the front and is a bigger bell.

    Bookmark   June 8, 2010 at 3:19PM
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fritzgarden

the gang at AS will send me the entire guts of the toilet when in stock in a few weeks.

    Bookmark   June 9, 2010 at 6:30PM
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asolo

It's time. Good on ya.

    Bookmark   June 9, 2010 at 7:52PM
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Terry Love

Since 1992, toilets have used 1.6 gallon or less by law.
The tanks will hold up to 3 gallons.
Do the math. A tank does not empty during the flush cycle.

If you want a 3.5 gallon toilet, you will have to look in a second hand store.

Toilets since 1992 have had quick closing flappers. If you try to flush an entire tank in the new bowls, and it's plugged even a little bit, you can overflow the bowl onto the floor.

The toilet you are trying to "improve" was poor when it was new. You can't make a silk purse out of that dog you bought. Check the Map rating.
The 2" flush valve "Aquaforce" from A/S was very low end.
I wouldn't have one in my home.
You would be better off with the Cadet 3 if you want something from American Standard. Just remember to inspect the porcelain before bringing it home.
Terry Love

    Bookmark   June 14, 2010 at 2:30PM
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fritzgarden

inspect the porcelain? for what?
Perhaps the porcelain on this one was bad from the start ..... but in what way?
I wouldn't have anything AS in my house, but sometimes it ain't my choice.
nudge, nudge, wink, wink

    Bookmark   June 14, 2010 at 2:45PM
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Chemocurl zn5b/6a Indiana

I wasn't getting good flush action and discovered the water jet hole was completely clogged shut with lime/calcium deposits. After working on it a good bit with a long brass brush, I got it all open and it now flushes much better.

If the flapper is closing too soon, might it be that there is too much 'play' in the chain?

Sue

Here is a link that might be useful: Cutaway of toilet

    Bookmark   June 18, 2010 at 6:11PM
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fritzgarden

the chain is quite tight.
I ran some lime away thru it last week and let it sit for a day as suggested above.
No change. AS sent me a flapper over flow pipe assembly. I'll see what that gets me.

    Bookmark   June 18, 2010 at 6:59PM
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Noremen

I solved this issue with a fishing line float. Using a medium sized float you can adjust the closing rate of the flapper by positioning it's location on the flapper chain. The higher up the quicker the flapper closes / the lower on the chain the longer the flapper stays open. Also make sure that there is not to much extra slack on the flapper chain.

Here is a link that might be useful: Example of fishing line float or bobber

    Bookmark   October 3, 2011 at 3:34PM
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tn_gardening

I'm no expert, but here's what I've read:

The flappers have a hole in the bottom. This is so they can trap a bubble of air when you flush. This bubble of air helps the flapper float while the eater drains. If it is closing too soon, then the flapper is not trapping air properly.

Most would suggest replacing the flapper.

    Bookmark   October 10, 2011 at 9:53AM
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busboy

As mentioned he system is designed to save water. Normal flush is half tank. If you want a full flush hold the handle down.. removing the foam float will probably allow it to give a full flush every time. I noticed this when I bought a new toilet last year. Or replace the flapper valve without a float.

    Bookmark   October 10, 2011 at 11:01AM
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rdibened

I had the same problem and I believe you are correct that the float is water logged. I got tired of buying a new flapper ever couple of years so here is what I did: I got a piece of Styrofoam about 1 1/2" square and about 3/4" thick. I cut a slit about half way through it a fit it under the existing float. I then hot glued the slit closed. It seems to work. Give it a try and let me know what you think.

    Bookmark   September 13, 2013 at 11:44AM
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timfear

So, I've a similar issue. I did not have a float so I went and bought a new flapper yesterday with the float. Now, instead of shutting really quickly, the new flapper slams shut. I've moved the float every which way and can see no difference.

I did adjust the water level and that's helped a titch, but you still need to really hold down the handle. Any ideas why float wouldn't float? I mean, it is buoyant, just seems chain is too heavy.

    Bookmark   September 17, 2013 at 7:37AM
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mhchodog

Before you replace the toilet, fluid master, adjust the chain, adjust the float , buy a new house etc., look at the comment by weedmeister in May 2010. My new flapper had too small an air chamber so it fell prematurely;, the broken one I had to replace had a larger air chamber, so it had been working fine. After returning the one with the small air chamber, I found one with a larger chamber (bulb) and an adjustable air bleed valve, and it works just fine.

Does it make any sense that adjusting the slack on the chain or the position of the float would make any difference, since they are hanging in midair when the flap closes prematurely?

    Bookmark   February 28, 2015 at 9:31AM
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vithdude

No one mentioned the tank lever not being long enough and chain being attached to the incorrect hole. You can have the chain as tight as possible on the wrong hole and the flapper wont open far enough to stay open. The chain should be close to taught and on the correct hole so you get the flapper to actually open far enough to stay open. Yea its an old thread but surprised no one thought of this.

    Bookmark   February 28, 2015 at 8:54PM
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