Are there kitchen drains like these?

andaleeMay 10, 2012

Hey all,

I'm trying to figure out if I can swing something on the kitchen sink like they have on ADA compliant vanity drains: an angle right beneath the strainer, taking the p trap back against the wall. It's a REALLY small kitchen we're doing, and I'd love to be able to make better use of the sink cabinet by keeping the plumbing at the back of the cabinet. I'll be talking to the plumbing inspector soon, but I wondered if I could show him a photo of an actual kitchen sink using this kind of plumbing online in case he wasn't sure what I was talking about. (It could happen, right? ;o)

Thanks for the help . . . I so appreciate it!

Here is a link that might be useful: Ikea's space-saving vanity p-trap.

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lazypup

The bad news is that the IKEA fittings you show are not code approved for use in the U.S.A.

However, the good news is that although that $110 assembly won't work, there is an easy way to make your offset with standard off the shelf parts for about $25 or less.

Code allows a 15" horizontal offset from the drain opening to the trap opening so you could get a standard tubular plastic crosstube for an "End Waste Kit" or "Center waste kit like used on double sinks. The tubes are sold seperately for about $3 to $5 each and you will need two of them.

Connect the first one to the output of your sink and turn it towards the back of the cabinet. You then take the second cross tube and attach it to turn down to the trap. (you will probably have to cut them to fit, but cutting the plastic tubing is easy with any hacksaw).

The center nut on the P-trap can be loosened and the P-trap can be rotated so the tailpiece it pointing in the opposite way to give the maximum clearance. (see illustration)

    Bookmark   May 10, 2012 at 3:00AM
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andalee

lazypup, you're wonderful! Thank you!!!

Now, I'm really curious . . . why are the Ikea drain setups not up to code? (I have a hard time deciphering codes of all kinds. Even as a writer myself, they seem so perversely obfuscatory.)

ThankYouThankYouThankYouThankYouThankYouThankYouThankYouThankYouThankYouThankYouThankYouThankYouThankYouThankYouThankYouThankYouThankYouThankYouThankYouThankYou!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Bookmark   May 10, 2012 at 9:36PM
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brickeyee

"The bad news is that the IKEA fittings you show are not code approved for use in the U.S.A. "

You would be stunned at the mickey Mouse methods allowed in Europe for DWV lines, including black water lines.

Think of things like corrugated drain lines (that will hold at least some waste).

    Bookmark   May 11, 2012 at 4:34PM
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andalee

Hmmmm....maybe that's why the Ikea setup above isn't up to code? The corrugated overflow line? I'd love to know for sure, so I can figure out an alternative, because that Odensvik sink (shown above the drain lines in the link above) is going in my bathroom. I don't want the plumbing inspector to have to make an extra trip . . .

    Bookmark   May 11, 2012 at 4:50PM
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davidro1

Andalee, sometimes an opinion becomes a fact because several people alll maintain it as a fact. It is now a fact that Ikea sells illegal things.

Back to reality: any elbow can be used (under a drain opening) to turn the drain pipe back to go to the wall. There are many cases of this. WC's have it. Tubs have it (called tub shoe). Many showers do too. So, a sink drain may also have a bend (elbow) in it too. On this point lazypup is correct.

Any tight elbow may be used.

So, your basic idea is fine. Move the drain pipe to the back, in order to save space for the items in the drawer underneath. I have done this in all my bathrooms and kitchens.

    Bookmark   May 12, 2012 at 2:27AM
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lazypup

I don't think it is fair to say that IKEA sells illegal things. IKEA is making materials that are sold throughout the world market, and in so doing they have to manufacturer their products to an infinite number of differing codes and standards.

The problem is that homeowners do not consult their tradesman, but rather they grab their credit card and go online ignorantly buying from whoever, where ever, with the blind assumption that a sink is a sink, is a sink, and once they buy it the plumber has to hook it up.

Everyone knows that in the electrical industry they have an independant testing agency called the "Underwriters laboraties" that has to certify all electrical devices before we can install them, but little do they know, all trades have independant testing agencies that have to approve an item before we can install it.

In the plumbing industry we may not install any pipe, fitting or fixture that has not been approved by the ASSE -(American Society of Sanitary Engineers), the ASTM (American Society of Testing & Materials and the ANSI -(American National Standards Institute).

In the opening general rules of all plumbing codes it expressly says we may not install a product unless it bears the seal of those testing agencies.

If you open the link to that IKEA fixture shown above and examine the page carefully you will see where you can download the installation instructions in PDF format.

On the first page of the installation instructions it has symbols indicating that it is approved in Great Britain, France & Spain.

It would not meet code in the USA because on the top of the riser from the trap their is an input for a washing machine. This is an 1-1/2" device but in the USA all washing machines are required to discharge by means of an indirect waste 2" standpipe, witht the opening of the standpipe a minimum of 18" above the water level in the trap.

    Bookmark   May 12, 2012 at 3:42AM
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andalee

So, the new comments beg a new question: can I put together plumbing that would work with this sink, out of parts available in the US? Looking at the instructions, I don't like the way the overflow line connects to the drain . . . it seems like it would tend to drip, since the male connector is on the downhill side. It's entirely possible that it won't leak, as the connection could be water tight, but still . . .

davidro1, I'm not sure I understand your first statement. I get the feeling you're saying that Ikea sells illegal things, but logically, the two first sentences used together draw the conclusion (heavy with irony) that Ikea sells things considered illegal by some people, but that are, in fact, not so. Everything after that is fantastic, though, as it gives me another data point for what I need to do. :o) Thank you!

lazypup, But if I replace that washer connection with an elbow, would it violate code? . . . so, except for the fact that it's not approved by the alphabet soup (which is important, especially in the US, where we assume that everything has been looked over by those types of agencies before sale), it would be alright? (Maybe I can use that as a model for something to put together . . . ) And, fwiw, I've always understood the "GB, FR & ES" to stand for the languages the instructions are written in, not the countries in which it's approved . . . but I'll have to research that. I've put together a moderate array of Ikea stuff, and that has always held true. (And these are things, like dressers, that aren't regulated like plumbing.)

    Bookmark   May 12, 2012 at 11:00AM
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davidro1

You are right, andalee, it was entrapmentt for lazypup to fall into. No harm done.

One may connect it without using the (available) washing machine input.
Note also that a 1.5 inch drain pipe works well for all US made washing machines, and that washing machine code-spec'd drain sizes were upsized a notch a few decades ago when house sizes were getting bigger (wider pipes are absolutely necessary when horizontal distances are longer), and when top loaders with highly sudsing detergents were the norm, and in fact pretty much the only game in town. But, today, detergents are better than ever, and many washing machines use less water than their ancestros did. And front lloaders (now widely sold) use a lot less water. But you might ask how I know that ANY American made washing machine will drain well on a 1.5 inch pipe.... And i have an answer. In Canada, they never bothered to upsize to a 2" pipe in their codes, and any US machine is legal for sale there, and there are no Canadians complaining about the drain being too small. None. Read the terrylove plumbing forums.

I may be able to find cases of other products being sold without any certification body having looked at it. That would prove the point that it is OK to sell such stuff in the US without being totally in the wrong, and it might lead you to conclude that some helpful internet expert postings are scare mongering. In any case, there are tons of products sold in big box stores to homeowners who install them as they wish to install them, without regard to ANY code or idealized set of size requriements. This is not to say that the Ikea product we are discussing will ever be used inapproprriately. A kitchen sink drain takes a large size pipe. (one size larger than a bathroom lav drain pipe). It iis the saem size pipe that is code-required for bathtubs. Tubs that hold many gallons. Go figure.

Hth.

    Bookmark   May 12, 2012 at 2:33PM
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andalee

davidro1, you think like my husband. ;o)

As for washing machine drains, time was lots of them drained into utility sinks, with 1.5" drains. I'm with you.

I believe that code comes into play (at least in my area, N ID) with new construction, and when a house is for sale. In between that, the homeowner has discretion. I can see the value for new construction, so contractors are prevented (somewhat) from cutting corners that can damage a home or create hazards; and when a home is for sale, as "buyer beware" can only go so far with today's large and bewilderingly complex homes.

And speaking of corrugated drain lines, that reminds me of one of my (totally off-topic) biggest pet peeves: the fact that corrugated ductwork is sold for dryers. We nearly had a fire in the white plastic duct in this rental, and while the new duct (installed by the landlord) is metal, it's still corrugated. I'm just glad we're moving soon. The dryer already has shut off due to overheating as a result of lint buildup in the exhaust vent. I just hope the people that buy this home have a clue . . . (/rant)

Thanks for the info, everyone! (And here's hoping that Will, our friendly county plumbing inspector, doesn't stoop over to look behind the sink and make a fuss about the corrugated line for the overflow . . . he can be a persnickety one, he can. ;o)

    Bookmark   May 12, 2012 at 7:00PM
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davidro1

I built my own drain setup like thIkea one, before Ikea brought theirs out. It can be done. I don't know if the Ikea one will fit both ends of a kitchen sink and drain, but if it does, it is a lot cheaper than building your own, because time has a cost.

A "remote drain" product might be of interest to you. Key words: popup, kitchen, remote, drain.

    Bookmark   May 13, 2012 at 12:28AM
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brickeyee

"In between that, the homeowner has discretion."

Better go read some code laws.

New work almost invariably must comply with the code in effect when the work is performed.

Age of the structure has nothing to do with it (an 1880 house gets plumbing and wiring based on the date of installation, not the age of the house).

Repair work gets some relief many times, but you must replace exactly.

    Bookmark   May 13, 2012 at 9:48AM
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lazypup

davidro1-

Just when I was beginning to think you might be a plumber you totally proved me wrong today-

1.- Quote" it was entrapmentt for lazypup to fall into."

LazyPup did not fall into any entrapment.

That Item is not and cannot be approved because it has the illegal washing machine connection, whether it is used or not. (If you had actually been through an plumbing apprenticeship you would have learned that)

2. QUOTE "Note also that a 1.5 inch drain pipe works well for all US made washing machines, and that washing machine code-spec'd drain sizes were upsized a notch a few decades ago when house sizes were getting bigger (wider pipes are absolutely necessary when horizontal distances are longer), "

That is a totally lie. While fixture arms are limited in length, once the line is vented it makes no difference how long the line is.

DWV lines are sized by DFU load (drainage fixture unit) and code minimums for certain specified fixtures, but the length of the line has nothing to do with its size. The only thing on a DWV line that is related to length is that a DWV line must have a cleanout for each 100 linear feet. (some local codes reduce that to as little as 60')

3.- Quote-"Any tight elbow may be used."

Again, that is not true. Only DWV grade elbows may be used.

I specified DWV grade tubular pipes because if they used sched 40 PVC or ABS they would be required to install a cleanout on the end of the fixture arm.

Now you may scoff and ridicule the alphabet soup all you want, but for those of us who actually hold a license, We are not about to forfiet our license or pay stiff fines for using materials that are not approved.

    Bookmark   May 13, 2012 at 9:52AM
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snoonyb

"lazypup"

AMEN!

    Bookmark   May 13, 2012 at 10:11AM
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davidro1

Andalee,

Check out the ADA drains they have under bathroom sinks, too. These are "tight" elbows.

    Bookmark   May 13, 2012 at 11:54PM
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lazypup

No they are not "tight elbows" they are DWV grade 1/4bends

    Bookmark   May 14, 2012 at 12:02AM
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davidro1

Andalee, disregard the adjective, and get the product.

    Bookmark   May 14, 2012 at 12:24AM
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andalee

lol . . . I've been around online forums for long enough to not let any of this bother me. I really appreciate the info, and the effort put into it, and I hope that everyone here has a wonderful week.

Thanks so much for helping me to find a solution to my problem!

    Bookmark   May 14, 2012 at 12:31AM
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andalee

And as a parting shot, (that will hopefully make you all smile) . . . it was just yesterday (after knowing the term "p trap" for a decade) did I realize *why* it was called a p trap. Duh. It's shaped like a P. (As opposed to an s trap . . . ;o) Plumbing . . . silentium per obvious.*

(*Obscurity through the obvious.)

    Bookmark   May 14, 2012 at 12:41AM
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