I got an Apricot Poodle

bug_girlNovember 12, 2006

After much debate on the animal debate forum, (you can read my other post there for reference) I ended up getting a miniature size (not a toy) apricot poodle at a local pet store in my area. I had seen a small toy, that I thought would be good for my friend, and she decided to buy him. Then I noticed on the bottom cage an apricot poodle who was mid sized. I had been trying not to look at the puppies there because they are in little cages, and I think its cruel, so when I was there with my friend, I did see him. He had been there for 11 days, and I am sure he suffered for this.

He is very quiet, and doesnÂt mind being picked up or sitting on laps, but he has at least one bad knee or maybe two? I had two different vets evaluate his knees. The surgery could cost 1,000 per knee.

I was very impressed by his size in the pet store. He seemed like a big boy, but the pet store refused to speculate on his size. The vet said, he would be 13 pounds, and I am hoping for larger then that. The dog we really wanted from the rescue society is about like he should be once full grown. But, we will love him any way. I like he is has grown quite a bit in just one week. He may have been underfed in the pet store.

I looked around on the internet after I got my poodle, and I convinced I got the best deal, because the apricot poodles for sale online are even more expensive at 1,500 dollars, and sold with a neutering contract, and only limited AKA registration, and while I am not planning to breed my poodle, why should I agree to have him neutered? If he was female, I would not want any accidentally puppies, but as a male, I canÂt see any advance to neutering him, expect if he was female, I would not want any accidentally puppies.

It should be up to the owner to make the choice to neuter or not. I am totally against having unwanted puppies or kittens, but I will only have him neutered if his behavior was so aggressive that it was needed, but he is very sweet and mellow, and I know the surgery is painful.

All my past dogs were all fixed, all my cats are all fixed, but if I decide not to fix him, that would be my first animal not to fix, and I have never had a litter of puppies or kittens, and breeding him is totally out of the question, so why should he be forced to under go a painful and unnecessary surgery? My Chow German Sheppard, I had neutered because he was too aggressive. Dante came from a pound and was pre neutered. The Yorkie had to be fixed, so she would not go into heat, or have puppies, but she never left the house. She refused to leave the house, so she was safe from breeding.

The worse part about an online breeder, and you have to have the dog shipped for an extra 250 dollars to the price, and if you donÂt like him or her, you have to ship him or her back, which is not only cruel to the puppy but stressful and expensive. If you canÂt hold the dog and have seen only a photo, how can to tell if you are sure you want one? Apricot Poodles are kind of hard to find.

When you read the breeders websites, they promise the spend time with the puppies, but can you believe them? One said, our puppies are handled

daily, does that mean like touched once a day? If I had puppies I would spend hours with them daily, I mean, but there is no way to prove how much time one spends with them.

He is really a great puppy, and I am very pleased. He was not in good shape when I got him. He was ungroomed, and his toe nails had not been trimmed, he was under weight, but I have made a lot of progress in those areas. He is already potty trained to outside on our back lawn, and he get along great with the cats. He seems to have recovered from his ordeal in the pet store, and am very worried, about that still, but I am beginning to feel better about it, because he is so well adjusted now, and happy, healthy and playing a lot.

He was marked as a cream, but he is apricot, and I emailed the AKC to have this corrected, because I canÂt find a way to contact the breeder. I guess it doesnÂt really matter, since I am not showing him, but I would rather have the paper work corrected. I could not find the kennel on the internet. I looked up the name of the breeder and the name of the kennel. I guess I could send a postal letter to the address of the breeder. I am not sure what can be done.

It seems like no matter whether you choice breeder or rescue, there are drawback to either choice. From a rescue, you donÂt know the background, and there could be problems. Breeders or pet stores cost a lot more, and also your dog could have problems like mine with the bad knees. Plus sometimes the breeders donÂt love the dogs enough and spend enough time with them. Rescues or pounds can make it hard or impossible to deal with all the red tape to get a dog. The lady from the rescue said, that you are saving a life with a rescue, but some time you are not. For example the dog we wanted had so many people wanting him, and the rescues are no kill any way.

I really did save DanteÂs life however, he had two days to go before being killed, and I did save his life, but then he ruined mine with years of unhappiness, because he bit, and not wanted to put him to sleep, and knowing no one else would want a mean dog who bites, so I could not give him away.

I am glad I did not go with a Silky, and I think I was influenced by what comments people replied, because many people seemed to think poodle were great dogs. I want to thank people for replying, and I am really pleased with my new dog. If he needs the knee surgery, we will just get it for him, and then the vet claimed he can have a normal life, so things will work out. We love him so much and he is so sweet, he is worth it.

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Congrats on your new dog, however he does need to be neutered.

If you don't get your dog fixed, he could impregnate unfixed females. What do you think might happen to those puppies? Hopefully they would get adopted. Maybe they would be so cute, they would all get adopted, leaving some of the 'less cute' dogs to be euthanized. Or maybe the pups would inherit his bad knees, and they would not be adoptable to most, since they could require expensive surgery. More euthanizations.

With the number of dogs needing homes in this country, not neutering is flat out irresponsible.

Linked below is just one website of many with some pretty sobering statistics. 6 million dogs and cats euthanized in the USA every year.


In the site below, 30 THOUSAND were euthanized in just this one county in Fla.

    Bookmark   November 12, 2006 at 11:00AM
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How will he generate puppies, if he is not induced to unfixed females? You appear to a victim dogmatic thinking without considering the facts carefully. He will not be allowed to mate with females. Having him altered will not make any effect on the problem of unwanted dogs. The problem is owners who allow animals to breed.

There are too many unwanted pets, therefore all pets must be altered, this is what you are saying. This is why the problem only get worse. One group of people is screaming alter all pets, and another group thinks that oh, it is natural to breed, lets just let them breed at will. The two groups dont have any meeting of the minds because there are unwilling to see the other persons point of view.
Reason and education and not dogma will be the best way to create change.

    Bookmark   November 12, 2006 at 11:26AM
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When a female comes into heat, males will go to GREAT LENGTHS to get at her. Dogs can smell the pheromones that females give off up to 3 MILES away. The drive to reproduce is pure instinct, and overwhelming. Even with a fenced yard, your dog could get out, or slip out the front door. I have personally seen a male dog, 30 pounds or so, scale a 6 foot fence to get at a female in heat. It was astounding.

There are too many unwanted pets, therefore all pets must be altered, this is what you are saying.

Other than responsible breeders, yes, that is exactly what I am saying. Just do some research on euthanization rates, and, if you have the stomach, use Google Images and type in euthanized dogs for your search terms. It's heartbreaking.

    Bookmark   November 12, 2006 at 11:54AM
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The cancer rate is much higher in unneutered dogs than in neutered. Unaltered males are also at risk for prostate infections. Having never owned a male dog, I do not know all the risks, but I do know they exist. Your vet should explain to you the health concerns in an unaltered male dog.

    Bookmark   November 12, 2006 at 12:07PM
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They used to think this was true, but now this is no longer believed, about the higher cancer in the males. Sometimes in females there is a higher cancer rate, however. This is also what my vet says the current research shows.

I may get him altered if he becomes either aggressive has other behavior, that could be helped by fixing. I am not ruling it out. I just want to be sure I am not giving him unnecessary painful surgery. He is too young to tell if he will develop such behavior when is older.

    Bookmark   November 12, 2006 at 12:15PM
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Sorry, but it is true. If you have other data, please post it because as I said, there are multiple health risks, cancer being only one of them. A quick google search turns up many reliable sources that indicate there are health risks for unaltered male dogs.

I rarely post here, and will not do so on this subject again. It is clear that you have made your mind up and are unwilling to listen to rational arguments about why you should neuter your dog - both because of the risk of accidental breeding and the health risks.

    Bookmark   November 12, 2006 at 12:30PM
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You've done a wonderful thing by buying from a pet store. You have opened that cage for yet another puppy mill puppy. I'm sure his mother appreciates the fact that her pups are selling so she will be bred yet again next heat.After all, she loves being a puppy breeding machine and making money for her fine upstanding owner. Shoot even when she has ones with bad knees they manage to sell.It's a win win situation,for momma dog,owner, and pet store. Keep up the good work and make sure to tell all your friends they should consider a pet store puppy.

    Bookmark   November 12, 2006 at 1:18PM
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Don't Confuse Her With The Facts, Her Mind's Made Up.
The danger in being an opinionated member of a forum like this is that sooner or later you do actually run the risk of coming face to face with the facts.

    Bookmark   November 12, 2006 at 1:18PM
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You are attempting to criminalize those who do not bow to your will completely. I am not going to say, that you are right just for the sake of peace. This is the last reply, I am going to give on the subject of fixing dogs.

First of all he is not locked in the yard, because he could be stolen by someone jumping the fence. He will never be locked in the yard. This research is the most recent research, my vet told me. Women can get breast cancer, so should all women have their breasts removed because of the risk? But, the newest research shows no health risks to male dogs unless I guess if you speak of a part that did not get cancer, because it was removed. You can find all kind of opinions of the internet, and people, that may not be correct, and research is proven wrong again and again, and it is revised and updated.

When humans males dont want children their testicals are not removed. Why should it be that dogs must undergo a radical painful removal of a body part, that if it was done to humans would be considered torture and mutilation? Why should this be done automatically without even thinking about it? If there was a way to have him fixed without mutation, then I would definitely agree just the very small chance he would somehow breed. Why should be made to suffer pain when it wont actually have any affect on the numbers of unwanted dogs out there?

Show dogs are not allowed to be fixed. So there are going to be unfixed dogs in the world, and if all pets were fixed there the species would die out. Maybe you should direct your energy and attention to the ACK society and demand all show dogs be fixed?

People need to consider both sides of the matter. It is just like a closed minded person to call the other person closed mined, for not accepting whatever they say without question. It is people like yourself who make the problem worse by attacking others. This will turn people off, and they wont listen to you. I see your attitude, and other people will read it, and it will only hurt your cause to end unwanted overpopulation. I am sorry for that.

I know about unwanted dogs, and I did mention I adopted Dante who was going to be killed at the pound in two days. I did mention that I have not decided yet, and yet this has been completely ignored in your haste to condemn someone. But, if anything talking here with people like you who dont listen and merely attack and condemn others, makes me more and more convinced that I dont want to neuter him.

    Bookmark   November 12, 2006 at 1:33PM
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PART 1: Breeders, Pets Stores, AKC, Etc. :-)

Here are the "facts" on pet stores:

Responsible breeders DO NOT sell to pet stores. Period. Why?

1. Because responsible breeders gurantee health, such as no hip, knee, thyroid problems, etc. Also included will be a lifetime guarantee that the pup will have no genetic diseases and defects. This has been carefully breed out of their line.

2. Responsible breeders have their buyers sign a contract. This contract says that at any point in their pups life, should the buyer be unable to take them, the breeder will take them back.

This contract also requests that the buyer make the breeder aware of any major health problems within the first 4 years. This is so that she can pull the sir or dam and prevent the spreading of these problems.

You will also have to agree to abide by any other terms and conditions set forth in the contract. If that means getting hips certified at age two, or eyes certified, you do so.

As daunting as this is, if you think it over, you will realize that she has done this to protect her dogs. And most people have no trouble signing these contracts with a clear conscience.

3. Responsible breeders screen to whom their pups are going and would never let them go to a poor home to the best of their knowledge.

It seems that you were very interested in the AKC registration of the dog. I wonder why, if you have no intent upon showing?

With that said, you would think that if you were so interested in the AKc reg that you would have taken the time to contact them before purchasing a pup. They would have lead you away from pet stores & made you aware of their breeder refferal program.

Why were you opposed to a limited AKC registration if you have no intent breed. Limited Registration means that the dog is registered but no litters produced by that dog are eligible for registration.

You also have no intent to show. A dog registered with an AKC Limited Registration shall be ineligible to be entered in a breed competition in a licensed or member dog show. It is eligible, however, to be entered in any other licensed or member event. These events include: Obedience, Tracking, Field Trials, Hunting Tests, Herding, Lure Coursing, Agility and Earthdog.

A responsible breeder will ask for a Limited Reg to help protect their pups against being breed & diminished blood lines. This helps perserve the "Breed to Improve" moto that is upheld by the AKC.

BTW, since you did receive your pup direct from the breeder you will need to fill out a Supplemental Transfer Statement along with your completed application. (The application is the form that you received from the pet store. It should be mostly filled out already & just require a little info from you.) The application & fees are necassary to complete registration.

Also, you mentioned that breeders are too much money. You will find it interesting that, as the AKC states:

"The motto of the responsible breeder of purebred dogs is "Breed to Improve." Responsible breeders do not breed to make money-because THEY KNOW THEY WON'T. Responsible breeders do not breed to show their kids the marvels of reproduction and birth-because they know that breeding can be a difficult, and sometimes heart-breaking, process. Responsible breeders do not breed their dog just to produce some cute puppies - because they know that each of those cute puppies will require many hours of care, and must be placed with a responsible owner who will continue that care even when the cuteness of puppyhood is over.

Responsible breeders do not breed unless they are convinced that their knowledge, experience, and devotion to their favorite breed will result in a mating that will produce an exceptional litter of puppies, with qualities that are as near as possible to the ideal for that breed. They breed to preserve and to enhance the characteristics that make their breed unique. In short, they breed to improve."

My final thought on this matter. I wonder how much you paid for your pup at the pet store? Well, you can already add atleast $1,000.00 to that for the surgery. This dogs health problems will surely, eventually cost you more then the cost of purchasing from a responsible breeder.

Just some thoughts to keep in mind for the future...

Cheers - S.

    Bookmark   November 12, 2006 at 3:14PM
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PART 2: Spay & Neuter :-)

Bug Girl, by posting questions here you are showing a willingness to be informed and to learn. Congratulations! It is important for you to be aware of the great measures that male dogs will go to get to a female in heat! Ive actually seen large dogs go through a glass window!! Yikes!!

With that said, all of my dogs are fixed. My male Min Pin was done late at almost a year. The final straw? He started peeing on people. It took a while after he was fixed to break him of this

Prairie Love, actually there has been research done on the matter that I found interesting. You may too. What was once thought to be true, may not! It is important not to believe everything we read on the internet or to assume that it is the most updated info!

Bug Girl, I find it interesting your vet would say that neutering does not prevent cancer. A dog cannot get testicular cancer if he does not have his testicles. That is a very simple medical fact. So, in this sense the surgery is preventative. Perhaps you read a little more into what he was saying or he was not being clear. Yet, I am not saying there are not cons.

Recent research is "SUGGESTING that the benefits to spay/neuter we once thought were there may not be. Research on the cons to ovariohysterectomy and orchiectomy (spay/neuter) are in their infancy. Much research still needs to be conducted to generate definite answers.

I will repeat for impact, RESEARCH TO THE CONS OF SPAY & NEUTER ARE IN THEIR INFANCY. MUCH RESEARCH STILL NEEDS TO BE CONDUCTED TO GENERATE DEFINITIVE ANSWERS. In the article I will be referring to below, veterinarian, Dr. Hahn reviewed studies over the past 30 years relating to the roles of hormones and cancer in dogs. For those unversed in the medical field, 30 years is not much time for research at all! Studies themselves can take 3, 5 10 years!

As I mentioned, if we remove a dog's testicles, there's no way he'll develop testicular cancer. On the other hand, most dogs who develop testicular cancer respond well to castration, so the advantages of preventive surgery are perhaps not as great as one might expect. Although intact (unsterilized) females have a higher incidence of mammary cancer, the dog's weight plays an important role in the process: intact females who are lean at one year of age have a lower incidence of the disease compared to their chunky cohorts.

In an interesting article in the August Veterinary Practice News entitled "Can we neuter cancer in dogs?" veterinary oncologist Kevin Hahn opens by saying that, after reviewing studies reported over the last 30 years, he's not sure what to recommend to his clients. Like most veterinarians, Dr Hahn mentions the higher incidence of testicular and mammary cancer in intact animals, but also notes that spayed females have a 4 times greater risk of cardiac hemangiosarcomas, and neutered males also show a significant increased risk for this cancer compared to intact ones.

Another cancer Dr Hahn discusses that deserves mention is prostate cancer because a lot of people erroneously believe that castration prevents this. In reality, it does not. In fact, castrated dogs have up to a 4 times greater risk of developing prostate cancer than intact animals. At the same time, spayed or neutered dogs have a 1.5 to 3 times greater chance of developing bladder cancer. Because of this, rectal examinations and abdominal palpation should always be part of a routine veterinary physical examination.

The link between sterilization and osteosarcoma (i.e. bone cancer) is also troubling: Spayed and neutered animals are twice as likely to develop this cancer. Those spayed or castrated before their first birthdays had a roughly 1 in 4 lifetime risk for osteosarcoma and were significantly more likely to develop a tumor than intact dogs.

The article then goes on to discuss the role of hormones and genetic controls in cancer. All agree that there is a connection, but no one knows exactly what it is. However, in his article Dr Hahn discusses a study done by Dr David Felman (and published in the June Nature) that I find intriguing because of how it may relate to the role the animal's behavior and his/her relationship with the owner plays in cancer. In a very tiny nutshell, the study looked at two gene mutations that lead the stress hormones cortisol and cortisone to trigger the growth of later stage cancer cells.

Because cortisol is also one of the hormones that's elevated when stress results in animal behavioral problems which, in turn, may result from human-animal relationship ones, it would seem that avoiding such elevations of this hormone by treating bond and behavioral problems could conceivably lower the probability of cancer in some animals, or improve the survival chances of those already afflicted with the disease. Although such a hypothesis might seem to require too great a leap of credibility for those who associate cortisol and cortisone with those drugs that counter inflammation and itching, another effect of these hormones is that they undermine the immune response. So while they may benefit animals who encounter occasional stresses of brief duration, these same substances may seriously undermine the health of those who daily live in stressful environments. In that case, not only will these animals have a higher probability of developing stress-related behavioral and medical problems (such as aggression or separation anxiety displays, irritable bowel syndrome or chronic or recurring urinary tract conditions), these animals' taxed immune response may experience more difficulty recognizing and dispatching mutant cells before they multiply and form cancers.

Dr. Hahn stated in his article that he is still not sure what to recommend to his clients.

Personally, unless there is a wide spread agreement that spay/neutering can be severely detrimental to a dogs health I will continue to have mine altered. In part, because I enjoy having my dogs around other dogs and do not want the worry!

Cheers - S.

PS I have had a wonderful time researching. Thank you, Bug Girl, for bringing such an interesting topic to the table. Please, everyone, keep an open mind & try to have a little fun debating. When informing, try to do so with a gentle hand as to present your point untainted.

We are all here because we have a common love and concern for our pets!!!

PPS Here is a link to one of the studies reviewed by Dr. Hahn:

Endogenous Gonadal Hormone Exposure and Bone Sarcoma Risk

Also, these articles raise important questions, but no definitive answers. We can help researchers find the answers by sharing blood samples from our purebred dogs. During your next heartworm test, please have an extra vial drawn for research. Please see:

Dog Disease Research at Broad Institute

Cheers Again!

    Bookmark   November 12, 2006 at 4:19PM
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the_adams, I said there were numerous links to reliable sources. I do know, very well, that much information available on the internet is untrustworthy. As it happens, I am a trained scientist, I know very well how to evaluate resources. That is why I asked for references to material that says the health risks are not applicable to male dogs. And, as I said from the start, I was referring to all health risks, not just cancer.

    Bookmark   November 12, 2006 at 4:45PM
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Hi Pairie Love,

I was never trying to refute your comments. I was simply bringing to the table the fact that the pros/cons to spay/neuter are somewhat debatable at this point.

There is evidence that suggests that there may be more cons then originally thought. Yet, there is a lack of research done to make any definitive conclusions.

Please know, I was not trying to question your level of intelligence. Actually, what is your masters in and have you reviewed the studies I posted links to and what is your take on it?

Personally I feel the studies bring up some interesting information. Could you post your reliable sources for my own review?

At the top of your post you stated "Sorry, but it is true. If you have other data, please post it because as I said, there are multiple health risks, cancer being only one of them." So I posted some other info. I assumed you were genuine in your request. If not, I apologize. I was trying to point out, in not so many words, that to state a matter of opnion as a matter of fact is an error. Seeing that you are a member of the scientific community I am sure you can agree that data is changing every day as new discoveries are made and technology is advanced. Heck, lobotomies used to be common practice...

    Bookmark   November 12, 2006 at 5:41PM
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Bug_girl-I totally respect your right to or not to neuter your dog. That is your business and nobody elses.I do have the opinion that all pets should be neutered,but that is just me. I see no reason not to other than if you are a breeder or plan to use him for stud services,which in his case I doubt anyone would want to do because of his knee problems. Anyway,I have to smile when you refer to it as being a "radical,painful removal of a body part". When I had my little Chihuahua done 3 years ago he was in "pain"
(and I'm not even certain it WAS pain) for about an hour after the surgery,(until the anesthetic wore off). Then he was right back to his own high energy self,running,jumping and acting normal. The incision was completely healed in a matter of a few days and within a week you couldn't even see the incision. I don't think he ever knew what happened and he is still humping all the females and enjoying being a boy dog! LOL I have had several dogs and cats neutered
over the years and none of them ever seemed to suffer for it.
As for condemning you,I don't think anyone is doing that. People are just giving you their own opinions,which is kinda what you were asking for??? You have a right to do whatever you want with you dog but everyone here is just giving you the pros and cons of both sides. And Beanne's comment is true. From the condition your dog was in when you got him it is clear that he came from a puppy mill or possibly a backyard breeder and there's no telling what his blodlines are or what other health problems could crop up later on down the road. There could also possibly have even been some inbreeding involved. Any one of these possibilities would be a definite minus for ever breeding him,planned or otherwise.
You said in your OP
"Show dogs are not allowed to be fixed. So there are going to be unfixed dogs in the world, and if all pets were fixed there the species would die out. Maybe you should direct your energy and attention to the ACK society and demand all show dogs be fixed?"
Show dogs are not fixed because they are judged on their breed standards. Show dogs are the "best of the best"
by AKC standards and in that respect are perfect for breeding,(to keep the line going with the "best" of the breed). All of the "problems" have been bred out. This is why they are not allowed to be altered. The pups born to these dogs that are not superior for breeding purposes (both male and female) are neutered. That is why reputable
breeders sell puppies with stipulations that they be neutered so that the bloodline will be insured.(Just one more reason to believe that your pup came from a puppy mill or backyard breeder. If he had come from a reputable breeder,with his knee problems,you would have been required to sign a neutering agreement before you could even take him home. Sorry but that's just a fact). This certainally doesn't make your pup any less wonderful and sweet and special to you,just a lot less of a candidate for breeding,for any reason!
Due to this neutering policy with AKC registered dogs,just the opposite of what you are suggesting(that all purebreds
will eventually die out) will be insured. Or at least this is what the AKC believes will happen. I am not totally convinced that IS actually happening,but thats a whole other discussion!
I agree,people should consider both sides of the matter and you are one of those people! Just don't close your mind to all the the possibilities.Look at the situation from all sides and make an educated decision after you have weighed all the pros and cons. You have gotten a lot of good information from lots of different angles. Take what you have learned and do the research,then make the decision!

From the AKC rules and regulations:
If you do not plan to show your dog in AKC Conformation events, you should have it spayed or neutered. Spaying or neutering will prevent accidental breedings and may even prolong your dog's life. Spayed or neutered dogs can participate in AKC Obedience, Agility, Tracking and most Performance Events.


    Bookmark   November 12, 2006 at 5:48PM
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Congratulations on your new dog. I'm sorry he has luxated patellas. My Ana (Husky) does too. Hers are really bad, and complicated by rear leg deformities. We had the worse knee surgically corrected, but because of her leg deformities and the fact that it was a grade 4 (the worst) and that she was 6 months old when I found her, the surgery didn't help that much. In fact, the surgeon did not recommend having the other leg repaired.

I started supplementing Ana as soon as I found her with glucosamine 1200mg /chondroitin 900mg once a day. She also gets vitamin E 400IU 3 times a week. A couple of years ago I added Duralactin twice daily. The vets are so surprised at how well she gets along, that she is pain-free, and she isn't on any pain medication (yet). I totally credit the excellent diet and supplements for that. Plus she gets walked 1 hour twice a day, to keep the joints moving. Eventually she will need NSAIDs or some other form of pain control for arthritis, I'm sure. Her knees are very creaky, and have been since I found her. But she's gotten along great for almost 5 years now without pain drugs, and the longer I can hold off the better it will be for her in the long run.

Good luck with your pooch. Oh, and $1000/knee is pretty conservative. It will probably cost more. Fair warning.

    Bookmark   November 12, 2006 at 6:00PM
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The purpose of conformation shows in legit registries are to evaluate potential breeding stock. That is why they must not be altered altho in breed specialty shows "veterans" may be shown altered. Altered dogs may be shown in anything other than conformation.

Personally I always alter females but don't really rush to do males. They may or may not be. They are securely fenced tho and not allowed to roam. There may be possible behavior problems with leaving males intact, marking territory is one of them. May make him unreliably house trained. Being intact may also cause "humping" behavior altho this one is not always related to sex hormones but can be a display of dominance as well. You will want to watch and be sure that both testacles desend. If they don't in that case it would be wise to alter him because of the higher incidence of cancer in males with a retained one.


    Bookmark   November 12, 2006 at 8:13PM
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I think the most important aspect of this poodle purchase is that it was purchased from a pet store...in other words a PUPPY MILL!! I have worked in the vet field and have seen puppy mill owners bring in litters of puppies to have hernia's repaired before they are taken to brokers. The brokers then sell the puppies to various pet stores. I have also seen and worked with dogs that have been rescued from multiple puppy mills in Missouri. The majority of the dogs were heartworm positive and had various orthopedic problems that were genetically passed from generation to generation. Also, it was found that many of the puppy mill owners had various AKC "papers" and health certificats that were being used to legitimize multilple litters. Good luck with this puppy. You already have a major health problem. It's a sure bet that it's litter mates also have the problem...as did previous litters out of the dam or sire. But, the mill owners don't care. So...you got what you paid for...a poorly socialized and physically deficient dog. It most probably is a poor representation of the physical and temperament breed standard

    Bookmark   November 12, 2006 at 8:30PM
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artemis, I am a fellow Missourian. (St. Louis) I am just sickened by the couple of things our state is known for...puppy mills and meth labs :(

    Bookmark   November 12, 2006 at 8:58PM
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yes, weed30, Missouri is a big puppy mill offender. The OP has not addressed this issue.

    Bookmark   November 12, 2006 at 9:25PM
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That part of the country has a lot of kitty mills too. There will be no end to it as long as people keep buying animals from pet shops. I won't set foot in an establishment that sells puppies and kittens. If you never walk in the place, you never see the little animals and feel sorry for them. If enough of us had the strength to do that, the places would be out of business. Buy all of your food and supplies from places like PetsMart that don't sell dogs and cats.

    Bookmark   November 12, 2006 at 9:56PM
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Bug_girl.. at least you stuck to your determination of not buying another small dog, believing how you do about breeding for smallness.

Sorry that you lost your heart to a petstore puppy but at least it's one that has a good home. From your previous posts and thread, I didn't get the feeling that puppy mills had even entered your mind, so what's done is done.

As far as neutering your dog, don't make a decision based on having gone on the defensive to other posters. My 11 year old golden retriever has never been neutered either. If I had access to the internet, and all the information that would have been available, a different decision may have been made. Nor did my vet ever express any great concern about not having it done either. Regardless, he has yet to experience any kind of problem, whether health or behavior.

I strongly disagree with the statement "not neutering is flat out irresponsible.", but do believe it irresponsible if intact animals are allowed access to each other.... barring an airplane falling out of the sky, crashing into your house and setting your pets loose before the house goes up in flames.. sheesh! Fact is, anything can happen in life, no guarantees.

I won't even go into pet stores because the sights are so pitiful. Don't even want to imagine where those animals came from or where they'll go. So many will end up in shelters or neglected due to unforeseen problems. And that's the last of my thoughts on that. Depressing!

Glad that you love your new dog, and sorry about his knee problems. What did you name him?

    Bookmark   November 12, 2006 at 11:15PM
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I pretty much agree with Moonie 57, it was not ideal, and I would have rather not supported the industry of pet store, and very often I have a hard time going in that pet store and seeing the puppies, when I go in there to buy crickets for my pet frog, so I put that off for months instead of going there first. But, when I held him, I felt as if he was really special. His name is Carmel and photo will be posted soon. He must have had a good upbringing because otherwise, he would not be well behaved, and well adjusted. I have no idea what his background was, but I am glad, I will be able to afford to fix his knee if it turns out he needs this operation.

I have also bought from a breeder who seemed to fit all the qualities of a good breeder, and that was the Yorkie who was so very sickly both mentally and physically. She really cared about her dogs in fact, she even took one back puppy back, who was not eating and nursed him back to health so he could re join the family. She was very loving to her dogs, and did keep up with us, but still the problems my vet claimed were caused by the smallness of size, and this whole teacup craze is really dangerous, and people should be warned, tiny dogs can be a nightmare of mental and physical problems. We visited her house were the dogs were home raised, and we saw the mother dog who was very loved. This was before there was such a thing as a teacup dog. She was merely a smaller size Yorkie from the litter with two smaller size puppies and three bigger size puppies, and I really should have gone with the larger size puppies. It was a hideous mistake on my part. The mother was a large size Yorkie, and these dogs had not even been breed to be super small or teacups. If the mother is small there are problems with the births.

If a good breeder did happen to have a dog with the non movable knee cap problem, then pet store may have been a last resort, rather then just putting him to sleep for having a defective knee. My vet said, this was a very common problem and he also said, he could be 100 normal after the corrective surgery. But, this is certainly not a bed of roses, and people should be really careful. The pet store declared a problem with one knee but said, he was likely to grow out of it, and also my vet agreed, he could end up growing up and not needing the surgery. This will have to be monitored as he grows. Right now, he is walking and running around without any difficulty.

Dante my dog from the pound was also a huge mistake, and there was no way to predict that. There is no way to remove all the uncertainty with getting a new dog. But, I felt in spite of it all I had to stick it out until his old age, and I never considered dumping him.

Lion the Chow German Sheppard who the neighborhoods gave to us, rather then putting him to sleep was our most successful dog, but he had hip dysplasia and I hated seeing him in pain. His was not serious for surgery, the vet said, but as he got older, he got much more crippled, and then it was too late for surgery. He was born because a lady in the neighborhood was breeding Chow German Sheppards and two other puppies went to other neighbors from his litter. They were well loved, but all had hip dysplasia, and she should not have been breeding those dogs at all. I never met her, but I was told this story by the other family, that adopted the other half of his litter.

Pet store gain business by word of mouth and if all the puppies raised under hideous conditions and have horrible defects, then they would end up losing sales, and would not get any repeat customers. With the internet people can review pet stores right on line. If they bought a dog there, and he was very badly breed, and with serious behavior problems they can state this in a review, and this would be bad for the store, so the store does have some interest in buying dogs that are good quality. I am not giving the pet store, a glowing review at all, but he is certainly not a horrible dog whom I regret buying. I would tell my friends the truth about him, and let them decide if they want to take a risk.

    Bookmark   November 13, 2006 at 12:48AM
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bug_girl, congrats on your new dog.I think you did good. Neutering should be between you and your vet. You are the only ones that knows your situation. I'm a firm beleiver there are exceptions to every rule. Go for it.: )

    Bookmark   November 13, 2006 at 6:51AM
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I'd like to see pictures of the mommmy dog. I bet she's adorable. What's her name?
I'm just asking, because I've had very few pedigreed dogs,so I never got to know the parent's or their names.

    Bookmark   November 13, 2006 at 7:34AM
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This is beanne's first post on this forum-
Posted by beeanne (My Page) on Sun, Nov 12, 06 at 13:18

You've done a wonderful thing by buying from a pet store. You have opened that cage for yet another puppy mill puppy. I'm sure his mother appreciates the fact that her pups are selling so she will be bred yet again next heat.After all, she loves being a puppy breeding machine and making money for her fine upstanding owner. Shoot even when she has ones with bad knees they manage to sell.It's a win win situation,for momma dog,owner, and pet store. Keep up the good work and make sure to tell all your friends they should consider a pet store puppy.
This is beanne's second post on this forum-
Posted by beeanne (My Page) on Mon, Nov 13, 06 at 7:34

I'd like to see pictures of the mommmy dog. I bet she's adorable. What's her name?
I'm just asking, because I've had very few pedigreed dogs,so I never got to know the parent's or their names.

First post= sarcastic
Second post= nicey, nicey

What are we today beanne?

    Bookmark   November 13, 2006 at 8:57AM
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ummm....second post is also sarcastic. :-) I won't hold my breath for pictures or even a name. She bought the pup from a pet store for crying out loud. Do you think she got pictures of the mommy? If so, that's a first. If she knows the name it's because it's on the registration paper. I'd kind of like the name because AKC should know that girl is throwing pups with bad knees and shouldn't be bred again.

    Bookmark   November 13, 2006 at 10:32AM
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Please do hold your breath, bug girl has made her choice. Probably doesn't need your opinion. What is done is done. Please offer your solutions and start action, NOW. Instead of ridicule. People with all mouth no action....

    Bookmark   November 13, 2006 at 11:08AM
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You don't know me. Ridicule me all you want. Buying a pet store puppy is ignorant and those who do it are causing more animals to suffer. It's one thing to buy one because you didn't know better, it's another when you do it anyway.
What's done is done is right. That doesn't make it right, just sad.

    Bookmark   November 13, 2006 at 11:36AM
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As far as not needing an opinion, then why post here? This is the Animal Debate forum, and when one posts here it is assumed they are seeking opinions both pro and con.

Unfortunately, there is no "solution". THis person has indeed made the choice to throw her support behind a puppy mill business. It is probably best to view her as rescuing this animal from a bad situation. It really isn't much different whether a dog is rescued from a pound or from a pet store, it is already alive and deserves to be loved as much as any other animal.

As far as registration papers, etc. It is unlikely that any papers issued with a pet store puppy have anything to do with the animal that was purchased. Puppy mills routinely allow their dogs to breed indiscriminately, so thinking that the papers issued actually reflect the parents of the animal in question is naieve at best.

I believe every single non-showing pet quality dog should be neutered, but if you read her entire first post, she really doesn't seem to be astute when it comes to dogs and is just trying to do the best she can.

I hope her commitment to this animal lasts for the duration of the animals life and wish her the best.


    Bookmark   November 13, 2006 at 11:54AM
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Buying A pet store puppy is definately different than rescue. I don't care if the poor thing is a bag of bones and laying in it's own poop in a cage that he can't turn around in. It is not a rescue unless you get it so cheap, or free that no one makes any money. Otherwise you are just making room for another to be treated the same way. If that is the goal to "save" that poor pet shop puppy so be it. Myself , I wouldn't be able to sleep at night knowing I was causing more misery.

    Bookmark   November 13, 2006 at 12:33PM
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"I believe every single non-showing pet quality dog should be neutered"

You just made alot of hunting dog enthusiasts quite unhappy. As a hunter who uses pointing dogs I much prefer the FDSB registry as opposed to the AKC registry.

Without digressing into a heated debate about the registry, lets at least agree that the AKC does produce some very beautiful dogs and the FDSB produces some wonderful hunting dogs .. and that the conformity to each standard is not the same.

Although I seek out FDSB dogs to improve my odds of getting a good hunting prospect, I am not an elitist and would never suggest that all unregisterd dogs should be neutered.

    Bookmark   November 13, 2006 at 12:57PM
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you are absolutely correct in that I should have included field trial dogs. IMO there are many hunting breeds that have been ruined by show breeders trying to achieve a "pretty" version of a breed while ignoring the basic purpose of what the breed is meant for. My personal experience is referring to watching a breed ring filled with Labs, all of whom were so fat and physically unfit they were panting after gaiting once around the ring. A fit working dog that enjoys his job is a thing of beauty even if he doesn;t conform perfectly to the AKC breed ring standard.

That said, I do know a few breeders of dogs that compete in field trials and though their first goal of a planned breeding isn't the AKC ideal of a perfect physical specimen, each and every one of them do include physical traits when considering which sire and dam to choose. Basically, you need to make sure the mechanics are there for the dog to stay sound during the rigorous physical demands put on them, not just a great hunting desire.

I wholly apologize for not including Field Trial dogs in my statement.

beeann - basically you are saying it is okay to punish the puppy that is in that cage for the greater good of all. WHile in theory I agree with you, when confronted with a pathetic little face, it takes a spine of steel to walk away knowing that baby has done NOTHING to deserve the unfortunate circumstances it is living in.


    Bookmark   November 13, 2006 at 1:34PM
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What I find most puzzling about the OP is that she went to the pet store because breeders and rescues are too expensive, yet she is very happy with her purchase even though right off the bat he needs $2000 worth of surgery.

Assuming she was unaware of the puppy mill/pet store connection and got sucked in by a cute little face, I'd be furious that I'd been had, and I'd be raising the roof about it.

Bug_girl, why don't you try to get some compensation from them? You can probably sue them in small claims court and you could teach them a lesson about why they shouldn't buy puppies from puppy mills.

    Bookmark   November 13, 2006 at 3:19PM
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If that puppy doesn't sell, it won't be replaced. Simple as that. No market for puppy mill pups, no puppy mills.
I don't see the cute puppy, or the pitiful puppy in the pet store. I think about where that pup came from and absolutely would never give a dime to that store, much less buy a puppy from them. If they want to give me one or sell dirt cheap, yea, I'd take it, if I was sure they lost money on the deal. Otherwise, I'm supporting the puppy mill trade.

    Bookmark   November 13, 2006 at 3:23PM
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As this is the animal debate forum- I'll chime in against "local pet stores" selling dogs. These are often puppy mill supporters, and you pay HUGE money for dogs of questionable lineage or often even mixed breeds.

If you want a mixed breed dog- then the pound/rescue is a good place to start.

    Bookmark   November 13, 2006 at 3:39PM
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I was hoping this was your intent. Thanks for the clarification. However, I'm not ready to agree that all dogs need to be neutered, and in fact, I have one of my two now that is not.


I couldn't agree more that if you know pet stores are supplied by puppy mills then you only support the bad guys if you partipate at all in the supply chain. Our words may say that puppy mills are evil but we all vote with our pocket books/wallets.


The smallest expense in owning a pet is the purchase price. It cost just as much to feed and care for the "inexpensive" dog as it does for the pure bred. It may even cost more in vet bills on the cheap pet, and unfortunately, you may now realize this. If you simply wanted to share your new pet, you should have gone to that forum, not to a "DEBATE" forum.

All of us need to examine our belief systems and then back them up with actions which speak much louder than words. As bug_girl found out, this can sometimes be very difficult to do when you have tempted fate and attached yourself to a puppy or kitten.

As I have gotten older (what a drag!) I've begun to shy away from absolute statements. I generally find that I end up hanging by my own words. I have found that words like "all" & "never" seldom end up making true statements. There always seems to be an exception to whatever was stated.

    Bookmark   November 13, 2006 at 3:39PM
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Just a little 411 on the "pet store" policy return issue. My SIL bought a golden retriever from a pet store 15 years ago. SIL was 20 years old, had no idea what she was contributing to at that time.

Long story short, "Aretha" had bad hips - discovered at first vet visit. It came to light very early on that Aretha was in fact a "puppy mill" dog. When SIL called the store they offered to take the pet back and partial refund. Store would not offset cost of hip surgery or any other care. Of course, SIL would not give pet up and over the lifetime of the dog, spent huge amounts of money on the best care and treatment. Aretha had a lifetime of maladies for a supposed "pure bred". She also had a lifetime of companionship, love and family with SIL and eventually her husband and children that came along later.

The important part of this story is that she was a young girl, had no idea about puppy mills and the like when she bought the dog.

SIL is older and wiser and now as you might imagine totally opposed to puppy mills.

I think it is sad, but I guess sometimes people innocent mistakes, bad choices, etc. I've made plenty... I don't get the impression that OP feels the purchase was a mistake? It is not the mistake so much that is bothering me with the OP situation, but the fact that the OP just seems to think the main problem for her is the question of neutering? Is it me, or isn't that going to be the least of her problems?

I intended not to even get going on this particular issue, since my view of this particular puppy mill breeding makes me sick. I can't even go into a pet store that sells dogs and cats. I won't spend $.10 in a store like that. I just wanted to post in the event OP does decide to try and recoup some of her costs for surgery, she will meet with a hands down "no way". I am sure this puppy was an "as is" purchase.

BTW, funny that you asked for pics of the mom beenane. I really got a kick from that because I do have pics (taken by me) of my 2 boys parents. They have the same mother but different fathers and don't look anything alike. My breeder has both dogs on site and encourages and actually will drag you out to "meet the parents". I am counting my blessings at this particular moment.

    Bookmark   November 13, 2006 at 3:55PM
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I'm sure you do have pics of parents. I've had that privilage twice in my life. I bought from a breeder so actually saw where two Aussies came from. Saw mom, saw dad. It's a good thing. Since then, many years ago, I have no idea where my animals came from. They just seem to fall out of the sky. Maybe that's why I can't understand people having such a hard time finding a pet. Mine seem to find me, through rescue or whatever.
I may come across as seeming to think that the only way to go, is shelters or rescues.That's not really true. Of course I think adopting an animal on death row or from a rescue or shelter is wonderful, but I know it's not for everyone. I dream sometimes about buying the breed of my choice again from a reputable breeder, but it's not going to happen. My dogs are still pretty young and even if they weren't, something would fall from the sky, that needed a home, before I could even think about buying a dog.

    Bookmark   November 13, 2006 at 4:36PM
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Why would anyone knowingly buy a dog with a genetic defect?

Why would anyone not neuter a dog with a genetic defect?

Why would anyone care about AKC registration if they weren't going to breed the dog?

So sad.

Supporting puppy mills, the pet store and planning to breed to pass on the genetic defect to others.

Thinking neutering is mutilation is just flat out hysterical. BTW, they have fake testicals to insert for those who can't stand the thought of the dog not having any. ...

Neutered dogs are much less likely to bite, roam, fight, and are better pets.

    Bookmark   November 13, 2006 at 9:18PM
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I foster dogs and I can say most male dogs recover from their neuter without needing any pain meds past the first day. Females have a rougher time with spay surgeries. However, I also fostered a 10 year girl who had uterine cancer when our adoption group did her spay. :( Sadly, the longer you wait to spay/neuter the more likely such cancer will occur. Also, there are a number of behavioral reasons to neuter your dog if you don't plan to breed - marking, territorial behavior, the possibility that your measures aren't as perfect as you think and he DOES find a intact female to breed, etc. And your puppy has bad knees - don't breed that defect. That is a sad fact of puppy mills and pet stores - they breed poor quality animals with numerous health issues. I only hope you're intelligent enough to end his lineage with him and get him neutered. There's no reason NOT to honestly - like I said, the dogs (adults) that I've had at my house did very well recovering from their surgeries. There are several reasons TO neuter - even if some are just possibilities. There are no good reasons NOT to neuter a nonbreeding animal IMO.

    Bookmark   November 14, 2006 at 4:09PM
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Maybe you can find the puppy mill your dog came from on one of these lists.

List 1

List 2

If you can't find them there, they might not be operating legally and you should check current lists via this USDA site:


A reputable breeder will NEVER use a middle man...period.

"Saving a dog" from a pet store, no matter how harsh this seems, only perpetuates the problem.

Hope that helps.

    Bookmark   November 15, 2006 at 8:54AM
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Webcat, Thanks for posting this. I've tried in vain to prove that the kennel I bought from bought from a puppy mill. Cody had too many quirks not to be. I found it on List 2. Spring Pond Kennel in Shippensburg, Pa. My husband and I would like to take a road trip and see it. I'd find a sitter for Cody, I'd never want to take him back to puppy memories. He's still afraid of that dark hole we call the basement. He cries until we emerge from that scarey place. We've tried to take him down but he's whimpers at the door until we take him back out.

    Bookmark   November 15, 2006 at 7:45PM
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Oh my goodness Webcat :-( I only just glanced at list one and saw tons of Yoders, Troyers, and Zimmermans. I bet every one is Amish.

    Bookmark   November 15, 2006 at 11:59PM
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I actually live in an Amish and Menonite community...I do suppose that it is possible that some apples fell far from the trees. In general, the people in my town are very kind to animals.

Why did that catch your attention?

    Bookmark   November 16, 2006 at 12:22AM
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Because of all the talk a few years back about Amish and PMs. One named David? zimmerman was an especially nasty one. Also, I am originally from Ohio and Amish country there now has lots of mills, as I understand it.
Are you in Penn.? Lancaster is turning into the puppy mill capital, I believe, unless I'm way behind or just confused. Which could be :-)

    Bookmark   November 16, 2006 at 1:16AM
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No, you are correct.

I live about 2 hours from Lancaster and the number of puppy mills there is astonishing.

Really a depressing situation.

    Bookmark   November 16, 2006 at 8:28AM
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I live 45 minutes from Lancaster. Our local paper always has ads for kennels there that are selling many different breeds of dogs, always a tip-off that it's a mill.

Dirthappy, I'm curious as to your dog's breed. I happen to have visited a kennel in Shippensburg last year while searching for a new dog. I didn't like what I found there and left. I can't remember the name of it but she had toy fox terriers, rat terriers, and I think she mentioned another breed she had in her garage but I can't remember what it was.

    Bookmark   November 16, 2006 at 11:15AM
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His papers claim Maltese. I didn't get him in Shippensburg but from a kennel here in New York. He was just born in Shippensburg.

    Bookmark   November 16, 2006 at 11:34AM
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I would have remembered if she had said Maltese because I used to have one. It would have been a huge coincidence if it had been the same kennel, just thought I'd ask. That's Mennonite country, too, and this was a Mennonite breeder.

    Bookmark   November 16, 2006 at 12:12PM
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EEK! I had no idea the Amish and Mennonites ran puppy mills! Gets me to thinking of cows on diary farms. Should we even be drinking milk? Who would like living the life of a diary farm cow? Are we more worried about puppies and kittens because they're cute, make great house pets, and are very intelligent? Hmmm.. pigs are smart. That ham on the Christmas table may go uneaten by me this year.

I hate when my mind starts pondering.

    Bookmark   November 16, 2006 at 2:44PM
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oh yeah.. almost forgot..

Dirtyhappy, I'm sorry for all the distress you may be feeling because of where your pup originated from. But, you've learned something important in the process. :(

    Bookmark   November 16, 2006 at 2:46PM
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A friend of mine lives in PA and works for an Amish man part time and she says they are not kind to animals in general. They view them as inferior to humans and feel it is their right via God to profit from them in any way. I've heard this before from others in PA.

She also says that many Amish do have puppy mills. The people she works for (nothing to do with dogs) also backyard breed. My friend has been involved with dogs for many years, showing but not breeding. She is horrified by their callous treatment of animals and their indiscriminate breeding but she cannot afford to quit her job and most other jobs in her town are related to someone Amish anyway.

    Bookmark   November 16, 2006 at 4:39PM
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I guess there must be a huge difference between Missouri and PA Amish communities...

I will have to check into that further...

My horse, Sam (a Haflinger), came from the Amish...

I first saw him at a draft horse and mule auction and when no one bid on him, the kill lots tried to buy him. Sam's owner would not allow them to and stuck to their reserve (this is set so the lots can't automatically bid and win).
I knew at that point that I wanted that horse. I went to pick him up and he, as well as the other horses/animals, seemed to be fabulously cared for.

    Bookmark   November 16, 2006 at 9:05PM
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I am from MO. too, and I was just thinking the same thing, my mom runs a horse farm and uses the amish for everything from horse breaking (a 10, 11, and 12 year old do this for her) horse shoeing, having her wagons fixed and so on (she has about 15 haflingers included in her 100 count mengarie) yes it is true they are 'stern' with the horses but they are in no way abused, and with ponies you have to be stern, would you chance your 4 and 5 year olds with anything but a bomb proof horse? (her x-mas ponies are a big selling point) I have pics of these Amish broke ponies if anyone would like to see (my 5 year old is riding them) no one in the community raises dogs and in fact they got one of my moms Australian cattledogs for the community kids, they all love him.

on the Apricot poodle, I just wanted to give you a piece of info, my husband owned a poodle when he was growing up, think he was around 15lbs maybe? and he actually went through the living room window to get to a female. they had some times with that dog! he was out on a chain and a female cocker spaniel CAME OVER TO HIS CHAIN! those owners of that dog sued my in-laws and won 500.00 dollars (can you believe that?) then sold the puppies for 100.00, would not even let them see the puppies, they offered to buy one, you know what the answer to that was, George was getting up in age so they thought maybe they could get a puppy (I know, his parents are a little odd, why would you ask the people that sued you if you could buy a puppy?)
I am not condemming you for your choice in neutering, just wanted to let you in on another experiance with a poodle.

    Bookmark   November 16, 2006 at 11:40PM
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I just wanted to add that I have decided to have him fixed in consideration of his luxating patella, and the very small chance he would accidentally breed, and past this on which can result in the dogs being crippled for life in a stage four case. Each dog needs to be considered case by case, and I still do not believe all dogs should be fixed an absolute rule.

    Bookmark   November 17, 2006 at 8:21PM
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Good idea, bug-girl. :)

How is Carmel and where is the photo you promised? Would love to see him.

    Bookmark   November 17, 2006 at 8:37PM
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Bug girl, I've been mean to you on this board. I will not apoligize for that. I feel strongly, that what you did puts your puppy's mom in even more danger. What you can do, is prove me wrong. Supply the kennel name at least. Then we can decide for ourselves if it is a clean commercial breeder, or a filthy one that your pup came from. Is your pups mom in a cage with a hampster water bottle? Or does she actually get to drink water from a bowl? Or can you prove he came from a hobby breeder where you have pictures of his parents and the breeder will be proud to show you both parents?
I'm only mean to you because I'm sure you knew better before you bought your pet store puppy. You just didn't care. Thats just MHO.

    Bookmark   November 17, 2006 at 9:12PM
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I looked at every possible rescue and I searched for two months. I did find a white poodle at peninsula humane, and they said, you cant have him, he doesnt like cats. How do you know? I asked he pulled slightly towards the cats, they said.

(My new poodle likes he cats, and he is interested, he doesnt not bother the cats.)

I found a poodle at in Sonoma SPCA, they said, you cant have him. I said, why? They said, he was returned by someone because he barks constantly, and he needs too much exercise. I was so rejected by each SPCAs, each pound and each rescue, only Rocket dogs was friendly to me, but they did not have anything, and they also had a huge number of people competing for a the small dogs. They mentioned a 10 year old poodle, I knew my husband would not agree, but I asked to see her, and they made a call, and said, no his foster home wants to keep her. They said, they would email me if they found a dog that would work, and I have not heard anything back, so I would still be waiting at this point.

I did want a poodle per se, so I found a mixed poodle, and so many people wanted him there was no chance.

I found a silky at Pets In Need Rescue, Rosie the Silky was ten years, had serious medical problems and hated to be picked up and tried to bite me when I need to bring her down the stairs after our visit.

I did not want to buy a dog online and have him shipped without seeing him first. I found a silky breeder locally, but she was not having puppies for at least 10 more months. The Yorkie I did get from a "good breeder" not so good. She hated to be touched or picked up. I think this comes from grooming the puppies and when it pulls thier fur they associate laps sitting and touching with pain. So, my poodle is only being professional groomed.

I did get him at the pet shop. He is very well behaved, and a wonderful dog, but he may have a 2000 dollar knee operation in his future, however, the pet store is willing to cover that if needed. Since I discovered this I feel much better. But, the dark side is clear. I have contacted his breeder from his registration so she will know not to breed his parents again, thus stopping the cycle hopefully, if she is responsible, of luxating patella.

I really did try to get a rescue, but I realized it was going to take years of searching, and I wanted less time looking and more time being with my puppy. So, it is very tempting, when you see the prefect dog, and you can just have him without suffering all of the lengthy application processes, the home inspection, the waiting, the delays, the heart break of losing the dog you want to someone else. I do not think what pet store puppies are ideal, but if it had been easier to rescue one, I would have done that.

Dante was a rescue 15 years ago, but things are much harder at rescues. In fact, there are very few dogs to be rescued except for pit bills, and Chihuahuas, and mixes of these types we did not want. When you look you can see in numbers there are many dogs, but of the ones we wanted there are very few. Kern County near Bakers field is 300 miles away, and they have a huge number of dogs, but to get one we would have to make many trips to Bakers field, and we both work, and do not have un limited time to invest. I cant say he did come from a puppy mill. You cant say all pet stores puppies come from puppy mills. He had a breeder who sent him to a clearing house who ships to various pet stores. If he had a horrible existences then he would not be a nice dog now.

Dante (my mixed breed rescue) had been abused, and he was a bitter, who also bite not only us, but children. My husband refused the idea of an older dog, because he did not want to endure a death so soon, and we were really out of options before I saw the puppy at the pet store. He did not come from a puppy mill. I have provided a link to a site with a discussion which points out bad temper and ill health is not always related to a puppy mill, it can come sometimes with genetics.

San Francisco has a premium on small dogs, because space is expensive and apartments are small.

    Bookmark   November 19, 2006 at 1:12PM
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Bug Girl, I'm glad your puppy has found someone kind and willing to give it the love and the help it needs. Who knows what it's fate would have been if you had not purchased it. Puppy mills/pet stores will be an issue for a long time. And I'm not in favor of puppy mills. So, do we leave these puppies in the pet stores to face probable death? Or do we give them a chance for a loving, caring, secure life in our homes? It's not the puppies at fault, we can't hold them responsible for where they came from. But they do deserve a warm loving home. I wish you much luck with your puppy. Now how about a picture? :)

    Bookmark   November 19, 2006 at 1:53PM
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Bug girl, I ditto above poster. enjoy you puppy.

    Bookmark   November 19, 2006 at 10:23PM
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"If he had a horrible existences then he would not be a nice dog now."

Working with rescue I know this is entirely untrue and depends upon the dog. In fact, I rescued a Doberman 3 years ago this Thanksgiving. He was obviously very abused, but is the sweetest, kindest, most gentle giant (105 pds!). He lives peacefully in a home with my Jack Russell and Min Pin, always watching his step as not to hurt them.

He has never snapped at us or the other dogs. A horrible exsistence does not equal a "not nice dog".

My rescue experience deals specifically with severly abused dogs. I have come upon many who you would expect to be mean after what they endured, yet they are not. They seem to look at you with eyes that are saying "Thank you..."

    Bookmark   November 20, 2006 at 6:37PM
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I completely agree with the_adams....in fact it is part of a dogs nature to be more forgiving than not.

I, also, have had many abuse cases through my doors (I rehabilitate and rehome) and have only had one that was not able to be rehomed. She was severely beaten and was part Border Collie. This type of dog has an intense ability to reason and will tend to be much less forgiving.
She lived with me for quite a while (8 years) until she became a danger to me and my other dogs....

I never considered her to be my dog, but a dog that lived with me since the trust level was never secure.

    Bookmark   November 20, 2006 at 9:27PM
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Does anyone feel like projectile vomiting after reading this?

    Bookmark   December 4, 2006 at 3:28PM
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    Bookmark   December 4, 2006 at 4:16PM
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Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.

The best thing I got from this particular thread was access to List 1 and List 2 courtesy of webcat. I actually printed List 1, not realizing it was 75 plus pages long.

The names of the corporate breeders, there were so many and not just drug companies, etc. You know what they are breeding for. It was very enlightening.

As for the OP, I don't think the pet store purchase was totally "innocent". I don't think she set out for a puppymill dog, but I don't see that it bothered her at all, and that part really offends me.

    Bookmark   December 4, 2006 at 4:18PM
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She's Guilty.
Guilty of two counts of not doing her homework prior to obtaining a dog.
Sentencing to commence on December 5th.
This court is adjourned.

    Bookmark   December 4, 2006 at 7:51PM
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webkat, are those 'lists' everybody that raises dogs that has a license? or are they known puppy mills? is there reputable breeders in there as well?
just curious....

    Bookmark   December 5, 2006 at 12:18AM
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Micke, generally speaking those should only be the puppy mills. The reason I say that is because the responsible breeders won't be required to license themselves with the USDA. If a breeder has over 3 breeding females, they are required to register...if they don't, they are operating illegally. Since a part of responsible breeding is the absence of a "numbers" game (breeding females or litters produced), they shouldn't be on the lists.

Hunt corporation and Petland are suspect of purchasing from illegal operations...if the breeder can not be found on those lists and was purchased from via those companies, they should be reported. Even if the breeder is on the list and is inspected by the USDA...the visits are generally announced (unlike restaurants), so what is the point?? If they are not on the lists, they are never inspected.

You can read much more about Petland puppies, etc...at this website...I used it for some of the information in a speech I gave about puppy mills/pet stores/pet overpopulation.

    Bookmark   December 5, 2006 at 10:40AM
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The first list are those who hold A certs (Breeders), the second list are those who hold B certs (Dealers).

    Bookmark   December 5, 2006 at 10:51AM
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I really highly doubt everyone on the "A" list is a puppy mill type of breeder. One of the registrants lived right down the street from where I used to live. Not that that means anything but I suppose we can go to these addresses and say "whuzza"
How do we know these are all dog breeders and not alpacas or ostriches?

    Bookmark   December 5, 2006 at 6:49PM
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The obvious reason to neuter your male dog, if they are not neutered they hump everything in site. And they pee all over everything they come into contact with. You and he will be much happier if you take him to get snipped.

I mean no one will want to visit you at your house if your dog humps them when they come over and whizzes on their stuff. My DHs parents had a bichon that before they had it fixed, actually whizzed on my baby's blanket that was on the floor - he was being territorial obviously. Another friends male dog pees on people's coats when they come over. Endearing.

Also you should not breed him because he obviously came from stock that had knee problems, why would you want to perpetuate that trait?
Good breeders will watch for that and try to breed it out of their lines. And will advertise that fact proudly when they can.

Good luck with the poodle, they are very smart animals and you should be able to teach him lots of tricks after you get his knees fixed.

    Bookmark   December 6, 2006 at 11:21AM
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