In what ways does honey affect breadmaking?

I often use honey that I get locally in making homemade bread, and I have also heard that the honey extends the shelf life of bread. But I usually keep my breads in the fridge anyway, and they don't last much longer than a week, so I can't say I have done any trials and recorded my findings. LOL!

I think honey has a hydroscopic effect in that it can take water vapor from the air and keep foods soft and moist. But (full disclosure here!) I am not an authority on honey - just make lots of bread.

Honey seems to bring out the natural sweetness of whole grains, in my opinion, so bread bakers have included honey in whole wheat breads for ages. As to a ratio, most of my recipes call for 2 to 4 TB of honey per 6-7 cups of flour, be it all-purpose or whole wheat or a mix of the two flours. For a sweet dough recipe, I might use up to 1/2 cup honey for the same amount of flour.

I see that the recipe in your link calls for up to 2-4 more cups of whole wheat flour and the amount of honey is not excessive. As always, read the recipe through first to catch those added measurements and I like to read some of the comments as well to see how the recipe worked for others. Looks like a good recipe to try! Have fun!

Teresa

The Honey Whole Wheat bread that I make regularly is one that it popular here with other members.

6 cups flour (3 white and 3 whole wheat, I use 2 and 4)
1/2 cup honey

I always slice my bread and then freeze. It's easy to snap off the number of slices that you need.

--I consider the honey and whole wheat connection to be one of a continuity of using "natural" ingredients. If you are into milling your own flour or using "healthy" whole wheat flour, you may also tend to avoid white sugar, but there are other reasons for using honey in whole wheat bread.

--There is also a lot of science about the benefits of using honey in bread recipes that you plan on freezing. As Teresa pointed out, it has a hygroscopic effect and is more hygroscopic than table sugar. It takes in and retains moisture from the atmosphere. Agave nectar does the same thing and was the reason I used it in yeast breads, and is one of the secret ingredients in keeping homemade bread moist much longer (along with coconut oil). Both honey and coconut oil also help slow down mold growth in homemade bread.

--Honey can add some interesting flavors. I've been using pure raw buckwheat honey in a few recipes recently, and it imparts a completely different flavor than run-of-the-mill honey. This honey is thick and as dark as a jar of Nutella. I also like to use local honey from a friend's lavender farm in quick breads that has a lavender undertone to it. Our elderly neighbors used to give us a jar of clover honey for Christmas each year that they got in western Kansas, and it was another interesting flavor.

--There is a potential downside to using honey in yeast breads. It is composed of sugars (it's main sugar, as is agave nectar's main sugar, is fructose, while table sugar is sucrose) that can destroy gluten just as too much table sugar in a recipe can.

It is suggested that no more than 1/4 c. of honey per 2 cups of high-protein flour be used as a maximum amount. When there is too much honey or sugar in a recipe, it will pull the moisture from the dough leaving little for the yeast to develop, and that's the reason sweet dough recipes raise more slowly. That's also why sweet dough recipes often include additional yeast to help compensate for the slow yeast development, or there is ascorbic acid powder (1/4 t.) or lemon juice (3 t.) added per loaf. OR, you can use an osmotolerant instant active dry yeast (such as Fermipan Brown and SAF Gold. Osmotolerant yeast products are recommended for use in dough characterized as sweet, salty or low absorption.

--Honey can also kill yeast IF the honey processor use an additive to prevent mold from growing on honey, but this is an exception not a rule. If an ingredient added to honey can prevent mold from growing, it can also prevent yeast from growing. But honey also has natural antibacterial qualities which can also kill yeast, especially if you use it in the proofing water with the yeast. So if you happen to have some Manuka honey, save it for wounds, not your bread, due to it's therapeutic uses.

-Grainlady

The amounts of honey in the ingredient list and in the directions are not the same. The directions say to use 1/3 cup of honey in the sponge and another 1/3 in the main mixing. The ingredient list has both of these as 2 tablespoons and 3/4 teaspoon. My first thought was "who on earth is going to measure 3/4 of a teaspoon of honey" and that the recipe was kind of crazy. Then reading the directions I guessed they were trying to convert the 1/3 cups to tablespoons but got it completely wrong. A third of a cup is 5 1/3 tablespoons. Half of that is roughly 2 and 3/4 (half of 5 1/2).
So -- the directions have you using twice as much honey as the list of ingredients. For my taste, I'd go with the lower amount.

Another suggestion: don't use whole wheat flour as the "bench flour" that you use as you finish kneading. The ingredient list is kind of weird that way. Obviously not enough flour for three loaves, but then the directions say may it need 2-4 more cups of ww flour! Flour amounts for yeast breads are always approximate, but not that approximate! So work in some of the whole wheat flour while the dough is still pretty wet, but unless you're making 100% whole wheat bread, it's better to finish up with white.

The first honey whole wheat bread I made that I actually liked came from a recipe that Annie posted. Here is her recipe:

HONEY WHOLE WHEAT BREAD
3 cups all purpose flour
3 cups whole wheat flour
2 pkg. active dry yeast (4½ tsp.)
1 1/2 tsp. salt
1 cup milk
1 cup water
1/2 cup honey
1/4 cup butter
1 egg
Melt butter and pour into bread machine with the water, milk, honey and egg. Add both flours and put the yeast and salt on top. I make separate "wells" for the yeast and the salt.
Process on dough cycle, then remove and shape into dinner rolls or loaves. Bake at 375 for 18-20 minutes for rolls or 25-30 minutes for loaves.
Yield: 2 loaves or 24-36 rolls, depending on size
I normally use King Arthur all purpose and it doesn't need Vital Wheat Gluten, but if I were using something like Gold Medal I'd probably add a couple of tablespoons of the VWG.
If making bread by hand, just mix the wet ingredients, add the dry, knead for 8-10 minutes until the dough is smooth and elastic. Let rise then shape into loaves. Put into greased pans, let rise until double, and bake it!

Yes to all that has been said above, including the "natural" part. There was a distinct rise in honey wheat breads during the hippie era. One of the issues is that whole wheat flour can start to turn rancid almost immediately after it has been milled. I thought my King Arthur whole wheat flour was just fine until I tried freshly milled wheat and realized what a big difference there was in flavor (Thank-you, Grainlady!). Even when the flour smells fine, there can be a bitterness when it's baked. The honey masks that and makes the bread taste nicer.

Throw in the philosophical and scientific factors, and it's a stayer. I don't actually like the flavor of honey in my breads, however, so don't use it. Sourdoughs are amazingly resistant to mold and staling as well--maybe because of the acid?--so I've gone that direction instead. With my freshly milled wheat, I don't need sweetener.

Congrats on finding the bread flour! As to recipes, a lot of bread baking is in the feel. You might have to make a recipe a few times to learn what works for you and your oven and ingredients. Keep at it! I really like the recipes on Virtuous Bread though I haven't looked at their instruction areas. There are also highly thought of bread courses and recipes on The Fresh Loaf, though I find it hard to follow. Just for more information.

The recipe you linked is a little weird. I don't know why the honey is listed in halves on the ingredients, and combined a different total in the directions (1/3 cup = 5 1/3 TBSP (5 plus a teaspoon) and the ingredients total 4 1/2 TBSP). When you read a recipe like that, it's best to give it a go by. It might make sense to the author, but be too individual for sharing. Maybe the author was just trying to use measuring spoons for the honey and did the conversion wrong. Maybe an editor read the double entry and sort of combined it in the instructions (perhaps with faulty math) instead of removing a duplicate line. That's where web recipes become suspect--they're too easy to change and aren't tested and edited.

For the amount of flour in the recipe, I'd think that the couple tablespoons+ of honey in a single line on the ingredients would be fine.

One thing to remember if you're concerned with mold is that whatever protection your bread has against it, that doesn't apply to loose flour clinging to the loaf, which is commonly seen on rustic breads. If it's not going to be eaten right away, use a pastry brush to remove the flour before wrapping it.

Good luck!

Hi Everyone,

Thanks a lot for your replies, I always learn a lot from each one of your answers.

For all those of you who said the recipe is weird, I do realize there are some inconsistencies in the ingredient portion when serving size is changed, but I think most of you got confused because the link I sent you was adjusted to 15 servings (1 loafpan size - I have a 9 x 5 x 2.5 inches in which I can use up to 3 & 1/2 cups of flour). The original recipe was for 36 servings (there is an option to change servings on the website). That is probably the reason why you see a difference in the honey measurements in the method (which is still for the original recipe). For those who want to check the link to the original 3 loaf measurements is at the bottom.

The recipe uses honey at two stages and is hence mentioned twice in the ingredient list.

Thanks grainlady and Teresa, I will remember the 2Tbsp per 6 cups ratio and 'no more than 1/4th cup of honey per two cups of flour (that is approx. in the range of 2% to 12% of the flours qty) for my future recipes. (I am not fond of sweet breads for sandwich so I avoid milk and the lesser honey, the better for me). Also, grainlady, I am definitely going to go hunt for coconut oil during my next shopping trip. Thanks once again!

About the bread now, I baked it last evening. The bread shown in the picture (next to the recipe) looks amazing and that is the bread I was hoping to get. I did adjust the recipe a little but what I got was nothing short of a disaster (I have attached a picture of the disaster with measurements). I was too depressed last evening to reply but this morning I woke up and studied the entire thing to see where I could have gone wrong.

Any help and advice appreciated.

I reduced the honey and ended up using a little more water as I decided to soak the whole wheat flour in 1/2 of the water for 2 hours before beginning. I also measured the flours and found a difference in the weights but tried to keep the ratios same as much as I could.

Everything was going fine, I kneaded the dough in my Kenwood Chef Stand Mixer at speed 2 and the rise was amazing (I am glad I found bread flour). I have never seen my bread rise so much.

I put it in the oven when the dough had risen well above the pan and the bread expanded a little in the oven as well. The result was too soft, too moist and unbaked from the middle. Also, the crust was absolutely soft and not at all brown. I did bake it for a little extra time at a higher temperature to develop crust color.

1. I wonder if I used too much flour for one loaf pan and with bread flour I need to use less qty?

2. Or could the dough be over-proofed but it tasted just fine (not acidic)?

3. Or the extra water may have caused the bread to become heavy and not rise evenly?

4. Or was 175 deg C too low a temperature to bake this bread?

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Here is a link that might be useful: Honey Wheat Bread - 36 servings.

IMO, you might want to try another recipe. Your use of the term to "soak" the flour in water for 2 hours could be part of your problem with the results. The recipe has you mix up part of the ingredients and let it sit for 30 minutes - not soak for 2 hours. I've made lots of whl wht breads, both 100% whl wht and recipes that were part whl wht (as this recipe is) and no recipe had you to add additional honey to the second mixing part of the recipe.

Your dough may have over proofed which can result in low risen, soggy interior bread.

Teresa

Thank-you for the explanation about the scaling on the website. I'm sorry I maligned a fictive editor! I was just trying to make the amounts match and thought the second addition was an error too. :) If there had been a single measure of honey and the directions had said "half of the honey" it would have been clearer and worked better on the scaling. Oh, well.

Scaling a recipe you've never made can be dangerous even if you think through every ingredient. My mother's challah recipe, which I've made the most, and made for decades, makes three loaves, and it's much better to make three loaves and freeze two than to try to make it work for a single loaf.

One thing to remember in baking bread is that recipes often fail the first time you make them, especially while you're developing expertise. There are so many variations in flour, kitchen climate and oven climate, that a recipe is really a starting point, not an absolute. I'd also follow the recipe exactly once to get a better idea of what it's supposed to be before changing the ingredients.

After that, remember that when you make changes, you're not following the recipe, and you're relying on some very precise chemical and biological reactions not to care. Keep in mind that you're making an experiment, not a recipe, and that there are things that may be going wrong. I've been doing that almost weekly for the last year, and learning a lot from it about what reactions such changes bring, It's fun! But if your point is to make a good recipe and have a good loaf of bread, do start by actually making the recipe.

I have all kinds of ideas of how to proceed and tried writing them out, but I realized I'm not expert enough to make them make sense. It sounds like it might be overrisen, underbaked, or perhaps baked at too low a temperature. Do you have an oven thermometer?

Re soaking, if you're trying to adjust the nutrients of the whole wheat, you should do at least 8 hrs. and with some acid (I found a jar of vitamin C crystals easy to find and use a pinch of that, but normal kitchens acids will work). Adding extra liquid for it might have required a little extra baking too. I've found that even if a soaker seems very dry, when I mix everything together, it's fully hydrated and doesn't need an addition of water. This is true even when I knead the ingredients together by hand.

My best advice is to decide on a few small adjustments, try again, and see what happens. :)

LOL fictive editor! That was somewhat like my reaction when it didn't work out, but as you said developing expertise takes time and conditions differ. :-)

My logic behind soaking the whole wheat was that if the honey that keeps bread moist is missing, the soaked wheat would compensate for the extra softness. I'll just need to stick closer to the ratios next time.

Considering the fact that the corner slices got me something quite close to moist bread, it won't hurt to try again with fewer adjustments. Maybe cut down the rise time, extra water and bake longer or @ higher temp. Better still buy a thermometer.

Thanks Both! :-)

Here is an interesting comment I found under the same recipe.

Someone else had exactly the same problem and found an interesting solution.

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That's a very good recommendation. If your oven doesn't go into a fast preheat, a cold start is great. I do a lot of cold start baking. By gradually increasing the heat, the middle gets a chance to heat up before the edges dry out and trap the steam. My challah requires a cold start. If put into a preheated oven, it'll rise and look great on the outside and have a cavern inside with a blob of raw dough.

Your bread doesn't seem that way, but the times and temperature of the suggestion sound "right" to me. :) Definitely worth trying.

Thanks Pllog, I was also thinking about this tip and can do with some more advice. On a different note, I have a glass pyrex loaf pan in which I want to bake a banana bread (to be baked @ 350 F [175 C]).

I will be reducing the temperature to 150 C while baking, need advice on whether I can do a cold start on this one.

There is going to be a lot of moisture in this recipe becoz the 2 & 1/2 cups flours will be soaked in a 3/4 cup water (instead of milk). It also uses honey and applesauce.

Here is a link that might be useful: Recipe

I'm guessing you can do a cold start on almost any closed crumb bread or cake. Pound cake is usually made in a cold start oven. Very hot ovens are necessary for soft, open crumbs and especially the big holes that are the current darlings of bread bakers. They require pop.

This recipe for the banana bread doesn't read well to me. It might be fantastic, but it sounds very sweet and dense. In fact, it calls for pastry flour to cut down the denseness. Additionally, it doesn't talk about the moisture content of the applesauce, which can vary wildly. In general, I'm a fan of blog recipes. They're made under real world circumstances and often work as well or better than tested chefy recipes in books. This one, however, seems very personal with ingredients that could vary hugely from place to place. If you try it, even following 100% exactly, expect it to go amiss, and be thrilled if it comes out well.

Have a look at this one from King Arthur via Breadtopia. Read through the comments. It starts out as a well tested recipe and people seem to be having a lot of success with their variations.

Thanks Pllog.

I seriously doubt if a cold start would work with a quick bread because it's the hot oven that reacts with the leavening and creates the gas/bubbles necessary for the batter to rise. This is why it's important to have the oven pre-heated and waiting for the quick bread (or other things leavened with a chemical leavening) - you never make the prepared and panned quick bread batter wait for the oven to pre-heat because these leavening chemicals react first with the liquid ingredients during mixing, then with the heat from the pre-heated oven. By using a cold start, I think you will get a finished product that didn't raise properly.

-Grainlady

Grainlady is right. I had confused the recipe you were asking about with an egg rising recipe.