I have a niggling ? about dough in a machine

arkansas_girlOctober 10, 2012

OK so this keeps going around in my head...I used the dough option on my Oster Express bake machine. What I keep wondering is, OK so this machine does two rises...or at least I think it does...pretty sure the manual says it does. So if that's the case and it's already rising two times...is this the right way to do it or should I get the bread dough out when it beeps the first time which I'm assuming is after the first rise but I can't find any confirmation of that. All I can find are people saying to use the dough setting. I'm probably just over thinking it...

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It depends on what you will be doing with the dough when you take it out? Shaping and baking or giving it another rise?
I always let my bread rise twice before shaping.

    Bookmark   October 10, 2012 at 10:48AM
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My breadmaker has only one rise when it's on the dough setting. It takes about 90 minutes to mix, rest and rise, after that, I take it out, shape it and let it rise again before I bake it.

If I do the whole process in the breadmaker, it will rise twice, but then I get bucket shaped bread.

    Bookmark   October 10, 2012 at 12:05PM
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Mine has two rises on the dough cycle, I have the big Zojirushi. I let it go through both rises, then remove it, shape it, let it rise again and bake it.

If I put it on the "dough" setting, I figure it knows what dough is supposed to do, LOL, but my dough setting takes an hour and 45 minutes, I think. The first 15 minutes are "preheat", so I can use cold liquid ingredients which warm up before the machine starts to knead, so that brings me to the 90 minute mark too.


    Bookmark   October 10, 2012 at 12:07PM
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You can opt out of the dough rising in the bread machine entirely. Remove the dough as soon as the kneading is complete and pat it into a dough-rising bucket for proofing. I rarely allow the dough to rise in the bread machine and use a dough-rising bucket for the task. Dough rises according to the ambient temperature, moisture, and yeast strength - which all has little to do with a timed rise of the bread machine. A dough-rising bucket is also a good way to help prevent under- or over-proofing your dough. When I place enough dough in the container that fills it to the 1-quart line, I know it is done when it reaches just UNDER the 2-quart line.

Commercial flour is no longer bromated, so yeasted bread dough doesn't have the extensibility it had years ago when "double" was the standard. Proofing dough to "double in bulk" is actually over-proofing it slightly. Just under "double" is also best for wholegrain and multi-grain breads.

The link below shows you a dough-rising bucket if you aren't familiar with them. I purchased several sizes of them from the local restaurant supply store (they call them food storage containers) with graduated markings on the side, plus a lid (much le$$ than ordering it on-line). I use a 2-qt/2L size for dough out of the bread machine.


Here is a link that might be useful: Dough Rising Bucket - King Arthur Flour

    Bookmark   October 10, 2012 at 1:09PM
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What was bugging me was the fact that the bread would actually be rising 3 times which is what I questioned. So seems like either way it doesn't matter.

After I took mine out, I actually refrigerated it and baked it the next morning. I took a couple hours before it rose to double size.

I have also stopped being afraid to open the bread machine and look in and it's a good thing I did because the dough was way too dry. I got this good book with pictures that show what too wet and too dry dough looks like.

I'll check out that dough bucket...thanks!

Thanks for all the input...very helpful indeed! :)

    Bookmark   October 10, 2012 at 3:07PM
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I found it interesting that you went back to the ancient spelling of the phrase, which used to be "a nyngkiling" instead of "an inkling". It's like you were channeling the 13th Century, which is pretty neat!

Sorry I can't help you with the dough machine, but I wanted to compliment you on your being in touch with linguistics.


    Bookmark   October 10, 2012 at 3:14PM
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beachlily z9a

Why dirty up another pan if you like the way the dough turns out in the bread maker? If I make bread in my stand mixer, yes, I do use a dough bucket. However, the pan of the bread maker actually takes the place of a dough bucket.

I'm trying to understand what you are trying to accomplish. An extra rising will enhance the taste of the bread. It doesn't cause it to become tough or anything.

    Bookmark   October 10, 2012 at 4:56PM
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I almost always let the dough rise twice before it gets shaped. And when I make double batches, after the second rise, the dough goes into the fridge in a dough bucket. It continues to rise and needs to be knocked down again. When I'm ready to use this dough it gets left on the counter to come to room temperature and it rises again. Then it gets shaped and left to rise before baking. That would make a total of 5 rises if my count is right. The extra risings develop both flavour and texture.


    Bookmark   October 10, 2012 at 5:16PM
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So first I learn that bread makers don't bake well (not to mention the holes in the loaves), now I learn that they don't rise well. How much did this Zoji cost me?!

    Bookmark   October 10, 2012 at 6:15PM
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Why isn't dough bromated any more?...no flour is?

    Bookmark   October 10, 2012 at 6:32PM
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Yes Beachlily, I was just wondering if all those rises were better or worse. Seems like somewhere I had heard that three rises was not good so I guess that's what the niggling question was about...HA! So I got that question out of my head...I just thought maybe I was doing something wrong or could have been making the bread better if it didn't have three rises.

    Bookmark   October 10, 2012 at 6:42PM
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I have frequently done three rises of dough and agree with Ann that it helps develop the flavor. I really have no experience with a bread machine, although I keep thinking about getting one just to make dough. However, I really do not have the space for it at this point - the electric meat slicer took up the last available counter space, and I had to create extra counter space for that.

    Bookmark   October 10, 2012 at 7:00PM
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If you have a Goodwill outlet in your area, you may be able to get one for $20 to $30 to play with.

You can have the machine in your garage or basement if you don't have the room in the kitchen.

I even use my machine's bake cycle to make soup and rice.


    Bookmark   October 10, 2012 at 8:19PM
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I bought a bread machine recently for 10.00 at a thrift store. I see them often for that price and never more than 25.00. It was cheaper to buy the bread machine than to replace the lost paddle. I had given the machine to ex who enjoyed using it until the paddle went missing.


    Bookmark   October 10, 2012 at 9:30PM
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beachlily z9a

I use the bread machine for Annie's honey whole wheat bread, but I use stone-ground whole wheat. Oh well...gotta use the long rise, not the short rise. That loaf came out nutty, delicious and hubs asked what was the difference. Well, dear, that stone ground stuff really changed the texture. He thought it was better than any bread from a local bakery. I had to agree! We scarfed it down!

    Bookmark   October 10, 2012 at 9:40PM
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beachlily, did you use all whole wheat or half and half white?

    Bookmark   October 10, 2012 at 10:27PM
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I've used the breadmaker a lot to make cinnamon roll dough. Then roll it out, let it rise and bake.

You don't need to buy a special dough bucket, especially if you don't make a lot of bread. You could use something like an ice cream pail, most any container, even a bowl, just mark the sides with volume so you know when it's where you want it. You can put a piece of tape on the side of a bowl at the level an mark on the tape. Straight sides just make it easier.

These days any variation of the "n" word is highly offensive to some people! LOL

    Bookmark   October 11, 2012 at 1:24AM
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"Why isn't dough bromated any more?...no flour is?"

Flour once had conditioners like bromates and iodates added to them and there was an anti-bromate movement by the public for health reasons. Legislation in California banned bromates, until the entire industry took the bromates and iodates out of commercially milled flour. Where once nearly all commercial bread flour previously contained bromate, it has now been replaced with ascorbic acid.

Since I mill my own flour this isn't a big deal, just another thing I have noted from my studies on the subject of dough conditioners.


    Bookmark   October 11, 2012 at 4:52AM
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Is that fairly recent? In 2009 I bought a 50 lb bag of flour from a bakery, and when I got home and saw it was bromated I read up on what that meant and threw it out.

(LOL, cynic!)

    Bookmark   October 11, 2012 at 7:26AM
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I wonder if the bromate etc being removed has anything to do with the cookies going flat issue and other strange baking anomalies? Just thinkin' here!

cynic....uuuummmmmm "n word"? Ummmm NO! whatever?

    Bookmark   October 11, 2012 at 7:42AM
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beachlily z9a

I usually follow the recipe, but often will use 1/2 wheat and 1/2 white and don't make any other adjustments. Just make sure not to short the yeast. To make the bread wonderfully good I mail order in stone-ground whole wheat and that puts Annie's recipe over the top. Nutty, moist and impossible to not eat while hot! Oh, also that orange blossom honey adds its wonderful flavor and smell. Can you tell I love whole wheat bread????

About the rises ... I have a Zo that has quick dough function and regular dough function. The quick dough has one rise and the regular dough provides 2 rises. There is a significant difference in the amount of time it takes for each. If you are using whole wheat flour, the way I understand it, a longer rise time is necessary because the wheat flour is heavier and harder so it takes more time to morph it to that soft dough that I love to handle.

Just use your bread machine as a tool--that's all it is. And someday if you have the time, try to make bread by hand. It's a sensuous, heady experience that is absolutely a hoot! Fun and delicious!

Gotta go--I'm hearing the osprey who uses the street light across the street as a dining table for one. He comes back each fall/winter and he's BIG this year. He's eating breakfast, lunch and dinner on that street light. It has to be a mess up there! He goes over to the river (a block away), grabs a fish, comes over here and eats. Ah, the joys of nature!

    Bookmark   October 11, 2012 at 7:45AM
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Speaking of birds and bread.
I once had a loaf turn out like a brick,
so I threw it out in the back yard,
and the birds had it devoured inside of
ten minutes. So that's a good use for
those 'bricks' that most of us get, once
in a while.

    Bookmark   October 11, 2012 at 9:06AM
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