Pendant Lighting?

Laura517February 22, 2013

Here is my inspiration photo for our new kitchen.
Met with electrician yesterday and he needs to know location of pendants over island. Our island will be 51" x 84".
I am all over the place with lighting ideas- from schoolhouse looking pendants to lanterns. Please give me your advice.

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deedles

not seeing the image?

    Bookmark   February 22, 2013 at 12:58PM
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islanddevil

Your inspiration photo does not have pendants and it looks beautiful. Are you sure you want or need them?

    Bookmark   February 22, 2013 at 1:29PM
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Laura517

island: good point, I was just thinking the same thing, however I feel like the island is so large it needs something above it other than recessed lighting.
Here is one I like but DH thinks it needs to cast direct down light.

    Bookmark   February 22, 2013 at 1:43PM
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Laura517

Another idea...one thing I have tried to do is to find large pendants that are at least 12" in diameter. I personally don't like the mini pendants.

    Bookmark   February 22, 2013 at 1:45PM
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Laura517

A third option- except I haven't found this one online so I'm not sure where to find it. Note- our island will be one level not two as pictured in this lighting inspiration photo. But we will have chestnut stained island with white cabinets on perimeter and hardwood floors. I also like the wall paint color in this photo.

    Bookmark   February 22, 2013 at 1:49PM
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nycbluedevil

Check out the beehive lights in my kitchen. I posted them a few weeks back. I am not good with linking otherwise I would do it but you should be able to find the post easily. I think they would look great.

    Bookmark   February 22, 2013 at 1:51PM
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Laura517

nyc: I just searched you on GW and can't find recent photos of your completed kitchen. The one link I had wouldn't allow me to pull up the photos. Did you post on finished kitchens blog?
Signed: one non-techie to another (LOL)

    Bookmark   February 22, 2013 at 1:57PM
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nycbluedevil

Laura, I will bump the post of my kitchen and the one of my lights.

    Bookmark   February 22, 2013 at 2:12PM
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Laura517

Still struggling so I'm bumping this one again in hopes I will get more of a response. Here is my latest choice-from Ballards the Delaney pendant.

Another thing I'm mulling over is what is the correct height to hang pendants over an island? Our ceilings will be 9'.

    Bookmark   February 26, 2013 at 4:18PM
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Molly Phillips

I'm pendant shopping as well, although I need mini-pendants because my peninsula isn't as grand as that island is going to be. I'm all over the place too, from colors to fabric drums to vintage-looking. My favorite is WAC Clarity, though, discovered through this site. I'm just trying to find something less than the $240 price tag since I need three.

Anyway, didn't mean to hijack your thread, only to say I sympathize. I did want to point out that it looks like you are a ORB fan as all of the options you choose have that similarity. Are you planning on having that finish on the rest of your stuff? I only ask because I started out with vibrant stainless and moved to chrome fixtures, so now I'm only looking at chrome pendants now. It helped narrow the search.

Pendants will stop the eye, especially if they're bulky. What is the kitchen attached to? Do you have to blend with other lights? A particular look? Again, I actually like mini pendants so we may have different tastes but out of the ones above I like the last lantern look you posted when I look at it with the inspirational photo you have in the OP. I also prefer one light over a chandelier-type pendant. I like the school house look as well. To me, the second option is builder basic looking and just doesn't stand out as far as pendants go - sounds like you want something to be more of a focal point and that second one doesn't say "look at me!"

Good luck! I'm finding this and barstools may be the decisions that take me over the edge in my mental state of kitchen redesign. :)

    Bookmark   February 26, 2013 at 5:18PM
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enduring

Try looking on Hubbardton Forge site for the multiple pendant you posted. It may not be the same one but they have something similar and they are made in the US. I have a semi flush fixture in my kitchen and love it!

Here is a link that might be useful: Hubbardton Forge Lighting

    Bookmark   February 26, 2013 at 7:18PM
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eleena

I am not a fan of pendant lighting over an island but I'd vote for option #3.

Something tells me that the other ones are, IDK how to say it, more outdated? I tend to agree with PPs that you may not need any.

    Bookmark   February 26, 2013 at 7:23PM
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Laura517

Lovetodream: Thanks for understanding where I'm at with this decision. It seems like the most important thing since cabinet selection. You bring up some great points. I agree about the second option looking rather builder grade, funny thing is that is the most expensive fixture out of the 3 singles at $320 a pop!
You hit it on the head, yes I am trying to make a statement with the lighting, hence the reason why I feel I would be taking the easy way out with recessed lighting. Our kitchen will be large and the breakfast nook is part of the room. I plan to have a drum shade over the kitchen table in the breakfast nook. I also plan to have recessed lighting above the sink and also throughout the kitchen. I want to find the right look for the island and also not have it blinding or creating a glare for anyone who sits at the island or blocking the view across. Our house will be new but somewhat traditional. I want to infuse some rustic elements in, such as a barn door, and perhaps lantern pendants.
As for ORB, you are right I am drawn to it in light fixtures but my faucet will be chrome. Perhaps I should also focus on shiny "chrome" pendants. I like the ORB in the pendants because I feel it will work together with the stained island and wood floors, while also help ground all the white cabinets. Maybe I'm wrong.

enduring: Thank you for the link. I checked it out and Hubbardton has great stuff! I like several of their light fixtures but where can I find the prices? They weren't listed on the website.

Please keep the ideas coming! I am open to suggestions!

    Bookmark   February 26, 2013 at 8:26PM
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Laura517

This is nini's kitchen, one of my favorites on GW. I was thinking of something similar with the Delaney pendants.

    Bookmark   February 26, 2013 at 8:49PM
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enduring

Hi, here is a link to a website that sells Hubbardton Forge. They are not cheap. You can also find them in your local lighting shops. I bought my kitchen light from a shop in Ames Iowa, and my mirror for my new bathroom at a Ferguson's in DM Iowa. I like shopping local, and they often will tell me they can match a price I find on the web. Plus you have a human face & personality to deal with in case of issues with the product.

Here is another site that sells HF lighting:
http://www.handmadeinvermont.com/hubbardton_intro.htm

Here is a link that might be useful: Lighting direct

    Bookmark   February 26, 2013 at 8:58PM
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rebeccamomof123

I've posted about 5 threads on this same topic. I too, feel like the pednants can really add the statement style to a room. Especially those of us going with white kitchens - it's your chance to pop in some visual eye candy. My first choice was onion lights, using this as my inspiration:

Traditional Kitchen design by Philadelphia General Contractor Pinemar, Inc

And I loved this one too:

Contemporary Pendant Lighting design by Other Metro Progress Lighting

However - from what I've learned - apparently the bell jar, the lantern style and such offer more ambient lighting and are not great for task lighting.

What is your plan for can lights? Depending on the placement of those, you might realize you need down, task lights. I think the schoolhouse light might serve that purpose the best out of the options for those.

In my case I'm going with white ice granite and black penninsula chairs so I want black pendants to add a pop of contrast to the otherwise mostly white kitchen. I like these:

http://www.wayfair.com/Z-Lite-Charleston-1-Light-Mini-Pendant-2001MP-2007MP-LLH2182.html

The shade comes in white or burlap and will nicely match the kitchen window treatment I plan to make, like this:

Traditional Kitchen design by Los Angeles Interior Designer The Old Painted Cottage

    Bookmark   February 26, 2013 at 9:53PM
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wardman

No one but you know what they really cost ;-)

https://progresslighting.com/products.aspx?product=P5040-86

We're going with these

    Bookmark   February 26, 2013 at 10:06PM
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Laura517

Lovetodream: I went back to my clippings and looked at all my favorite kitchens. None of the pendant finishes match the faucets or cabinet hardware. Most faucets were chrome or stainless and the hardware and fixtures were a variety of finishes.

Rebecca: Those are really nice- especially the creme/burlap shade. Are you going to use two? The reason I ask is because they are very large at 22" in diameter? Just a thought, I can't remember the size of your peninsula. I'm glad you didn't choose the contemporary pendant from Progress- it looks to be a bit too modern especially in the silver finish.
When you say the schoolhouse would work best for me- my issue is that those lights are completely concealed, even at the bottom. So I'm not sure how much task lighting they will provide.
I am getting the electrical plan back today from the electrician so I can post again with number of cans and locations.

wardman: so true!

Thank you everyone!

    Bookmark   February 27, 2013 at 9:01AM
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rebeccamomof123

Laura, the creme, burlap pendants are actually only 7.125" wide so I plan to use 3 of them over an 87" inch peninsula. They are black, while my cabinet and faucet hardware are all going to be shiny polished chrome. I actually like the contrast and think it looks good to break up the hardware so it's not so matchy-matchy. As long as you have something else in the room to tie-in the color with. In my kitchen, I'll have black stools to tie in the black fixtures.

The beehive fixtures in nycbluedevil's kitchen are to die for (love them!) but for my purposes and probably yours too, you'll need your light directed downward. I just discovered schoolhouseelectric.com on houzz last night. You can customize the glass shade and the hardware color and style to your heart's content. If you are interested in schoolhouse pendants, it's totally worth checking out.

Keep me posted on what your electrician suggests! I'll check back here.

I think the schoolhouse pendants offer a more diffused light, versus task-directed. From what I've been told, the upward fixtures like the bell jars, etc. can sometimes cast a funky ceiling shadow. In

    Bookmark   February 27, 2013 at 10:48AM
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drbeanie2000

"island: good point, I was just thinking the same thing, however I feel like the island is so large it needs something above it other than recessed lighting.
Here is one I like but DH thinks it needs to cast direct down light."

If the pendants are open at the bottom, then you also have to worry about seeing the bare bulb. I hate seeing the bare bulb. Our shades, from Schoolhouse Electric, both avoid that and cast plenty of light that illuminates the island. http://www.schoolhouseelectric.com/lighting-and-hardware/fixtures/roosevelt-4.html

Your island is bigger than ours and the ceilings are probably taller, so you don't want flush mount, but there are other options on that site and on others.

I am sorry I can't show you how much light our lights give, but it is so hard to take pictures of the kitchen lights with the lights on!

    Bookmark   February 27, 2013 at 1:03PM
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autumncolor5

I was going to suggest the Progress Lighting seeded glass pendant P3753 that Rebecca posted only in the Cobblestone finish.

I have been watching/admiring that pendant for some time. It currently is marked way down--$68.54.

I saw these in a traditional/transitional kitchen that had white cabinets w/ a large stained island and darker hardwood floors. They used three of the Progress glass pendants in the cobblestone finish. It was beautiful.

Just my opinion, I don't care for the two pendants you posted pictures of with your inspiration picture. As already mentioned, I think a lantern would be nice too.

    Bookmark   February 27, 2013 at 3:36PM
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rebeccamomof123

Here is that link autumncolor mentioned - it's a steal at that price! It also comes in a darker ORB. If it came in black I might go for it myself.

http://www.homedepot.com/buy/progress-lighting-brushed-nickel-3-light-foyer-pendant-p3753-09.html

    Bookmark   February 27, 2013 at 3:56PM
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rebeccamomof123

Here is the progress lighting I posted in ORB, over an island:

Traditional Kitchen design

    Bookmark   February 27, 2013 at 6:00PM
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autumncolor5

Lighting Direct has them for the same price but use code PROGRESS10 and you will get an additional 10% off. I just ordered three in the Cobblestone.

http://www.lightingdirect.com/progress-lighting-p3753-seeded-glass-series-three-light-foyer-pendant-with-clear-seeded-glass-shade/p356625

Rebecca-- did you see it comes in Forged Bronze? I know it's not black, but maybe that would work.

    Bookmark   February 27, 2013 at 6:03PM
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Laura517

Rebecca and autumn: Great find! So happy you ordered them autumn- I wish i could be decisive. I'm concerned about what Rebecca said in prior post.
From what I've been told, the upward fixtures like the bell jars, etc. can sometimes cast a funky ceiling shadow.

Here is one more option that I like. What do you think?
I would hang two of these over the 84" long island because they are 12 1/8" in diameter. The fresnel lense is supposed to work well.

    Bookmark   February 27, 2013 at 7:23PM
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Molly Phillips

I like that one (and thanks for pointing out the no-need to match finishes...hadn't really thought about it).

I thought NYCbluedevil's beehive lights were custom? No? If not, please share sources!

    Bookmark   February 27, 2013 at 9:16PM
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nycbluedevil

My beehive lights are from Chameleon Lighting. I did customize them a bit.

    Bookmark   February 27, 2013 at 9:31PM
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rebeccamomof123

Laura, love the last one you posted!! What color stools at your island? I am certainly no expert on lighting I'm just going by what I've learned from lots of reading and researching lighting. I need to be especially careful because I have low celings ( 7 1/2 ft. - pretty typical for my Cape Cod style home in New England) so anything aimed up with be close to the ceiling. In the photo I posted of the ORB Progress bell jar's over the island, they hang far enough away from the ceiling that it's probably not an issue. Do you have high or low ceilings?

    Bookmark   February 27, 2013 at 9:49PM
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mpagmom

I have two pendants like that over my island (which is probably a few inches shorter). The fresnel lens does a nice job of spreading the light over the island. The only real negative is that there wasn't space in there for the low-energy bulb I wanted to put in. Standard bulbs and most spiral CFL's are fine though. Restoration Hardware's benson and harmon pendants have a similar look, but they have a frosted diffuser that looks a little nicer than the fresnel to me.

Here's a picture of my pendants:

    Bookmark   February 27, 2013 at 10:12PM
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Laura517

mpagmom: Do you have this exact light? It is by Progress Lighting. I love your kitchen! It is one that I saved! Thanks for pointing out about the low energy bulbs not fitting. And of course I have to check out the Restoration Hardware version.

Rebecca: Thank you so much for your help! I really like the last pendant. I am not sure what seats I will choose for the island. We should be able to fit 4 seats - 3 on the long side and 1 on the short side of the island. Do you have any ideas?
Ok don't think I'm crazy but I am actually considering the the last pendant...this could be it... but in the brushed nickel finish.
Which would you use? I would love to make a decision soon, sigh!

    Bookmark   February 27, 2013 at 11:14PM
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mpagmom

My pendant is actually by Kichler. It is almost identical to the Progress pendant and I had to look it up to be sure. I chose mine because it had an antique brass accent that I hoped would tie in with my dining table pendants, but the brass isn't noticeable in real life.

To clarify, most bulbs fit. I was trying to get a higher-lumen instant-on CFL to fit and it wouldn't.

    Bookmark   February 27, 2013 at 11:22PM
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davidahn

Of the options you posted, I like the Delaney, Laura. We have an 111" x 57" island and just eight 3" can lights. We have an open floor plan and a Danish modern minimalist esthetic, so pendants would diminish our clean lines. Pendants will go better with your style of kitchen, though I still think you should consider going bare.

    Bookmark   February 28, 2013 at 6:13AM
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Laura517

david: Thanks for the advice. Aren't you GW's resident lighting expert? I take what you say from a functional lighting purpose quite seriously. Do you really think the can lights will be enough? I am also a little surprised you like the Delaney because it casts up light vs downlight- did you choose it based on a design aesthetic or lighting effectiveness? I am a little frustrated with our electrician at the moment because he took my copy of our electrical plan since it was the clearest copy when we met at the house last week and I thought I would have it back by now, but I don't. Long story...anyway, if I recall correctly we will have six 6" can lights throughout the kitchen and 3" smaller cans over the wide sink area in front of the windows. We could add 2 or 3 more over the island and go without the pendants. It would certainly create a cleaner look- and I do feel that pendants have become trendy and the styles may change in a few years. How many would you suggest over a 51" by 84" long island?

Also wanted to note that I have read through your suggestions on the lighting forum about the CFMs, LEDs and size of cans. I still don't understand all of it, but I do now that in a few years we will not be able to purchase the incandescent bulbs that are going to be installed in my new home. But what is the problem with replacing the current bulbs with LED bulbs in a few years when that happens? Will they not work the way they are supposed to? Thank you again for your time and help.

    Bookmark   February 28, 2013 at 7:36AM
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rebeccamomof123

Looking forward to David's response.

What do you guys think of this one? Too modern looking?

http://www.wayfair.com/Justice-Design-Group-Wire-Glass-1-Light-Mini-Pendant-WGL-8815-10-JDG7078.html

(Sorry Laura, didn't mean to hijack your post!) I'm clearly stumped on the same pendant issue. I should just flip a coin or have someone decide for me!

I really like the progress bell jar but i think it's just too clunky for my low ceilings.

    Bookmark   February 28, 2013 at 11:59AM
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cathy725

Laura and Mpagmom can you provide a name or link for those lights. I'd like to check them out.

Rebecca--pendants you linked are nice, but only 40w bulb--will it be enough light for you?

    Bookmark   February 28, 2013 at 12:15PM
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rebeccamomof123

Nope - not enough light. Good catch, Cathy. Thanks!! Yay, that narrows down my choices. Hey, when does your demo start? Soon, right?

    Bookmark   February 28, 2013 at 12:18PM
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davidahn

Laura, to paraphrase Groucho Marx, "I refuse to belong to any panel of experts that would have me as a member." But I have done an inordinate amount of lighting research, and would ALMOST consider myself an expert in LED lighting after years of research/order/install cycles of LED lights from China for two 3800 square foot office buildouts and now our 5400 sq ft house (95% LEDs of various forms).

That said, I voted for the Delaney purely on esthetics. You're right, though incandescent candle bulbs would be omnidirectional, there would be shadows cast by the "candles" and bases. Having 4 candle bulbs would cast less distinct but more complex shadows (3 other bulbs are partially lighting the shadow from each candle base).

Functionally and ecologically speaking, as task + general lighting, 3 incandescent mini cans with LED bulbs would be ideal. I would recommend 3.5W or greater LED bulbs, 60 degree dispersion angle bulbs for bright, even task lighting (33 lumens/sq ft), or better yet, 120 degrees for slightly less task brightness but doubling as general lighting as well. I'd personally recommend 4000-4500K color temp (not too yellow, not too cold) for task lighting. This would also avoid your paint, cabinet and counter colors looking drastically different at night vs. during the day (2500-3000K in warm white vs. 6500-7500K daylight depending on clear vs overcast day). Your white cabinets and white marble counters will reflect a lot of light, but if you want to hedge your bets since you're planning medium stained hardwood floors that may absorb some light, you should get 5-6W dimmable LED bulbs in case, and if it's too much light you can always dim down.

I don't think pendants are a passing fad, but are IMO primarily ornamental and also provides some task lighting. Whether you prefer the look of pendants vs. cans is purely a matter of balancing function and tastes.

    Bookmark   February 28, 2013 at 12:37PM
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autumncolor5

I like the style of the last one you posted.

    Bookmark   February 28, 2013 at 1:41PM
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Laura517

cathy: I can't get the link to work but I found them on Amazon so if you search Progress Lighting product P5188-108 you should find them. Good luck! Let us know what you decide!

rebecca: I do like the last one you posted, but that is a totally different style. Do you have a kitchen inspiration photo? I can't recall the design of your kitchen, not sure if that is too blingy for your kitchen.

david: Thank you for the advice and explanation. I went to Home Depot with your lighting suggestions in hand today and tried to find the exact lights. I had a great conversation with Guy in the lighting department about LEDs and how he just converted all of his and has seen a 70% decrease in his electric bill!!!! So I am going to talk to our electrician about changing our plan to LEDs. I was confused when you wrote "3 incandescent mini cans with LED bulbs would be ideal." Guy and I priced out new LEDS which I understand to be the entire inner part of the can, it was actually less than buying the incandescent cans, plus the trim, plus the bulb.
I am not sure why our electrician isn't keen on the LEDs. I assumed it was because of the added expense, but today I found out otherwise. Am I missing something?

As for pendants being a passing fad, I should clarify, that I meant to say the styles of the pendants will certainly change- think 70s glass/brass chandelier types!

    Bookmark   February 28, 2013 at 2:45PM
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Laura517

Rebecca: Just read back through this thread because I knew you had chosen something else. Why did you go away from the Wayfair Z Lite Charleston Minis with the burlap shades? They seem perfect for what you need. Is it because of the 7 1/2' ceiling?

    Bookmark   February 28, 2013 at 2:56PM
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davidahn

@Laura, there's another thread on GW about whether 6" cans are dated... my answer is "yes." With high wattage LED lights offering as many lumens as 75-100W R40 bulbs, you could go with 3 or 4" incandescent can lights with LED bulbs. 3" cans usually use GU10 (110V) or GU5.3 (12V), 4" cans usually use edison base R20/PAR20 (110V) bulbs, and there are LED replacements for these. A 10W LED would give you about 900 lumens.

Re: separates vs. kits, I always recommend buying kits at HD or Lowes, much cheaper than housing + trim separately. If you buy complete LED lighting kits, make sure the LED bulbs are replaceable (some LED lights are hard wired to the housing). I usually buy housing kits from HD, then LED bulbs from China (I have a source but eBay is convenient). Even after buying 10-20% extra due to the failure rate nets you 50-75% savings over the huge markups on "specialty" LED lighting from a US store.

As for whether 6 x 900 lumens is enough general lighting depends on your kitchen size. General lighting recommendations are 25-50 lumens/sq ft, task lighting about 75-150 lumens/sq ft. Remember general lighting lights your island work areas, so the total of task + general lighting should equal 75-150 lumens/sq ft (depending on how bright you like it). You do have generally reflective colors, which is a plus.

@rebeccamom, your pendant, which looks kind of cool and very retro, has an 18W CFL option, which would give the equivalent of about 70W of incandescent light, would offer quite a bit of brightness spaced 3-4' apart.

    Bookmark   February 28, 2013 at 3:36PM
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rebeccamomof123

Laura, it's because indecision is my middle name! Okay, that's it - I'm going back to my Wayfair Z Lite Charleston Minis with the burlap shades. Those were the ones I was originally drawn to anyhow.

I just can't seem to help myself. There are so many options to look at!!! I think i need to step away from the pendants. I am officially TPO. (totally pendant obsessed)

    Bookmark   February 28, 2013 at 3:53PM
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cathy725

I'm TPO also! I really like those progress lights. How do they read to you? Are they more traditional, transitional, or contemporary. I just can't seem to tell sometimes and my kitchen will read traditional/transitional.

Good luck to my TPO buddies. I should find out this weekend when demolition begins (should be within the next week, or I just might go crazy!)

    Bookmark   February 28, 2013 at 5:25PM
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rebeccamomof123

One last insipiration pic for my TBO pals...this is the Progress light we all like so much - which I read as a cross between transitional/traditional, btw.

Traditional Kitchen design by Indianapolis Kitchen And Bath Shannon Poe

    Bookmark   February 28, 2013 at 6:44PM
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Laura517

Hello fellow TPOers- I have to put this aside for now- more pressing decisions to make. But one last word:
Rebecca: If you like the bell jar lanterns in the last photo that you posted- go for it! You don't need to obsess about matching your peninsula chairs to the finish on your pendants. Ha Ha! I know you already are obsessed, but honestly I think you could make those work. How many inches are they? That will determine how high you would need to hang them above the peninsula. I would guess and say in the photo above they hang about 3 inches before the top part begins. Now because your ceilings are 7 1/2' you may need a smaller pendant- do these come in different sizes? Note the photo of Nini's kitchen that I posted above- her lanterns are very close to her ceiling. I'm not sure of the height of her ceilings as she is not on the FKB. Do you like the way hers look?

Now I've added one more photo. Do these pendants look familiar? Is this what you are going for???
Decisions, decisions.....Good luck and let me know what you decide.
PS How is the demo going?

    Bookmark   March 1, 2013 at 8:53AM
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Laura517

Electrician coming on Monday. I have to decide if I want the recessed cans or pendants over the island!
My heart says pendants, but my head says recessed!

    Bookmark   March 1, 2013 at 10:55PM
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mpagmom

How high are your ceilings? That could make a difference.

    Bookmark   March 1, 2013 at 11:59PM
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davidahn

Laura, forget everything I've said. Go with your heart, you can't go wrong. I hijacked another thread about the importance of gut instinct (see link), but the bottom line is: your gut (or heart) usually knows how to cut through all the options and get to the right conclusion better than your head, which often gets bogged down and suffers from confusion and bias.

If you get the pendants you love now, and later want to switch to cans, you can: leave space for cans above the pendants' pancake boxes.

Here is a link that might be useful: Of Counters, Backsplashes, and Happiness

    Bookmark   March 2, 2013 at 3:24AM
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Lake_Girl

Can't you take the pendants down in a few years, and just put small cans there if you get tired of them? I think your large island will look great with pendants. We went for years w/o pendants over the island, and added two last year. I think they add interest, and of course, more light. I actually like the second light you chose. In the blog "for the love of a house", she has something similar. I also love the lantern look. I also love the large fixture mamadadapaige recently used, you should check it out. It would make a statement. I'm with david, go with your gut.

    Bookmark   March 2, 2013 at 8:44AM
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Elk Lighting Newington 3091-C Outdoor Wall Lantern in Solid Brass & Charcoal Fin
Beyond Stores
Indoor Area Rug: Contemporary Cherry and Light Brown Rectangle 5' 3" x 7' 5" Plu
Home Depot
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