Does this layout look ok?

dazedandconfusedFebruary 2, 2013

Good morning all! We've been planning this kitchen renovation for over one year. Unfortunately, because of family illnesses, hospitalizations etc we were not able to move forward with it for quite a few months. Thank goodness, things have settled down and we are actively pursuing completion of this kitchen. YAY!

This is the latest layout idea. We're meeting with our architect this morning and would love to hear some critiques. Right off the bat, I don't like the placement of the dishwasher behind the kitchen door and the refrigerator may need to be away from that wall in order for the french door to swing all the way out. Anything else, I'm missing?

The kitchen door must stay for sure and we are knocking down a wall between the kitchen and "breakfast room".

Thank you so much for all your help past, present and future. You're insights and help to all on this board is invaluable.

This post was edited by dazedandconfused on Tue, Feb 5, 13 at 16:48

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Not an expert but do see several things.

There is not enough room to have island seating where the frig is. I can't imagine the congestion there!

With your layout, it is screaming for a prep sink on the island.

It will be fun to see what the experts come up here for suggestions.

    Bookmark   February 2, 2013 at 9:27AM
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Boy it seems like your work triangle is really spread out. I am not the expert here, but I would want my fridge and sink closer together and on the same side as the island. I would put a prep sink on the island across from fridge and use the other sink as my clean up area.

    Bookmark   February 2, 2013 at 9:33AM
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Well, I'm far from an expert, but with such a time crunch I'll chime in. More ideas is better, right?

First to get more useful help from the layout gurus I'd suggest adding more measurements, at least aisle widths.

Fridge- looks like you have a true counter depth fridge included. If the wall comes out farther than the body of the fridge then yes, you will need some space for the doors. If the wall stops at the body, so the doors are past it, you will be fine. It looks like there is not enough space for seating and the fridge in that aisle. You will not be able to open the fridge if anyone is seated at that end of the island.

If the entrance to the kitchen is used frequently then I would agree you should move the DW, and probably the sink, to the left. If its a high traffic door then I think your DW will be hit by the door, and anyone at the sink will be in the way. Moving the cleanup area would get that out of the immediate entrance. I would store less used items in that corner, and consider a small prep sink on the range wall to avoid a long walk through the traffic pattern.

It seems like you have a lot of space, but I'm having a hard time figuring out where it would be convenient to prep.

What about moving the fridge to the end of the sink run (fridge, DW, sink, then counter) and moving the wine fridge where the big fridge currently is to make a beverage center there?

What's the plan for all that space to the right of the range? It might become a junk collector since it's a bit away from the action if there's not a purpose.

Ok, I'll stop rambling now. You have such a nice space to work with, I bet your kitchen will be fantastic!

    Bookmark   February 2, 2013 at 9:51AM
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what are you"replacing existing door" with in dining room/ is it the only dining spot? what is beyond dining room and beyond lower right passageway? Is the little side door by the sink your frequent in/out door and to the drive/garage area or deck or something else?

    Bookmark   February 2, 2013 at 11:34AM
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Hmm. This is interesting.
I agree there doesn't seem to be the space for a fridge and island seating. And, your prep space is all over the place.

Have you considered putting the fridge on the far wall (current sink wall), putting the Sink where the stovetop is, and putting the stove where the sink is? Maybe that isn't a good set up, if the doorway is a main thoroughfare... But, that is one set up I'd consider.

    Bookmark   February 2, 2013 at 12:29PM
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It's not OK. And it doesn't have just one or two problems. It's a do-over.

Aside from a DW opening into a doorway (WTF?), your prep zone is gargantuan, crossing the entire kitchen in every direction, overlapping with cleanup and eating, and sliced through with every single line of pass-through traffic. That's on top of seating that collides with the fridge.

Start with the "kitchen zones" read-me thread.

    Bookmark   February 2, 2013 at 12:46PM
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Have to agree with kirkhall for quick fix. I would also suggest oak for the entire space. You could do an integrated frig to hide it. The new stove placement adds a social element to using it while people are seated at the island or table. You may also lose the desk. A tablet or laptop in a comfortable chair is more likely to be used.

The longer fix addresses the lack of work zones not also pathways. The kitchen corridor design. Relocating the door nearer or across from the stairway takes an L shaped area out of the primary traffic flow and gives you dedicated work space. You won't feel you are in someone's way as they walk through while you are baking croissants.

    Bookmark   February 2, 2013 at 1:06PM
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Thank you so much for your input. You may not be "experts" but your invaluable insights and suggestions are right on the money. Thank you, thank you!

As planned we met with the architect this morning and we suggested moving the refrigerator to the opposite wall on the same side as the sink.
We also added a prep sink to the island ( he suggested in the middle of the counter facing the cabinets where the sink is).

Kitchen door- this is used mostly for throwing out trash and for ventilation during the summer as we have no central air or room a/cs as there are no doors between any of the rooms). Other than that we don't use that door for entering or exiting. It leads to the side yard/ summer herb and lettuce garden and to the trash area.

Stove and sink swap- this was one of the ideas but there is an existing window above where the sink is in this layout. We would like to keep that window if possible.

Existing door ( breakfast room)- there's a sliding door there now and we would just be replacing it with a French sliding door. This leads to our raised patio and backyard. This room is not our "formal " dining room. This is where we eat our meals daily. Right now there is a wall with a pass through between the kitchen and " breakfast room" that will be removed.

Adjacent rooms- Our formal dining room is through the door at the bottom of the layout. The stairs labelled "down" lead to a finished basement. The doorway between the " breakfast room" is being widened to about 5 ft. from 3ft. That is where our den is located. Our tv used to be in there ( now in the basement) and this is where we just sit and relax and read. We are contemplating putting a tv in that room again.

I like the suggestion about a beverage center where the fridge is in this layout! Thank you.

Lifestyle- I cook almost every single night from scratch. My husband usually helps with loading and unloading the dishwasher and washing pots. We have two teenage boys and a tween girl.

I'm confused about a recurring question about prep area. Why is my prep area all over the place? Isn't that a good thing ? Ideally, where should it be located in my kitchen?

Thank you all so much for your help, I really appreciate it. We have been saving for this kitchen for more than 10 years. I just want it to be " perfect" for us.

This post was edited by dazedandconfused on Sat, Feb 2, 13 at 19:39

    Bookmark   February 2, 2013 at 1:16PM
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I have to agree with the others - this space has major problems.

First, have you had a chance to read the "Read Me" thread? It has a wealth of information (including a topic that Marcolo linked to on work zones). There is also a "Layout Help" topic that describes the information we need to help you find a layout that works for you and your family. It also describes how to draw up a floorplan - what measurements we need, etc.

Second, the architect. Please be aware that while architects are generally good at creating "interesting elements" and general home layouts, the vast majority (and I do mean vast) are poor kitchen designers. So, I suggest you work with the architect on the overall design, but either meet with a good kitchen designer or work with the people here to come up with a good, detailed design for the kitchen. (Did the architect design the plan you posted?)

    Bookmark   February 2, 2013 at 1:28PM
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What if you moved the outside door to the window location opposite the basement stairs? That area could act as a mudroom of sorts, and now you can configure your kitchen as an L with an island.

Guessing at a lot of your measurements, I set this up in the IKEA 3-D planner. I especially guessed at the window location that would land to the right of the stove, The closed-up door would become the window to the stove's left. Microwave in a drawer opposite the refrigerator.

IKEA is a high-value option you could consider. If you don't care for their door styles, you can buy their cabinet boxes, drawers and hardware, and use a 3rd party for doors, drawer fronts, and cover panels. Three kitchens that did:

Here is a link that might be useful: IKEA 3D Planner - link good for 5 days

    Bookmark   February 2, 2013 at 4:40PM
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This layout has some red flags:

- What's going to happen when someone opens the door while the diswasher's open? Something's going to be damaged.

- The area between the sink /island seems to be the heart of the work /prep area . . . and a wine fridge doesn't deserve space in that most valuable, high-traffic area. Instead, move the wine fridge over to that out-of-the-way corner by the staircase.

- You're going to hate walking around that island every time you want something from the refrigerator. Very inconvenient placement.

- I think the island is the big problem here. I don't think this kitchen is suited to an island, though I can't really envision a better option. It's an odd shape, and I can't see the answer -- good thing you're going to an architect!

    Bookmark   February 2, 2013 at 4:53PM
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I really guessed wrong at those measurements! 136" is really 13'6".

Here is a link that might be useful: IKEA 3D Planner - link good for 5 days

    Bookmark   February 2, 2013 at 5:34PM
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If you add a prep sink, I'd strongly advise keeping the fridge closer to the stove, rather than moving it to the sink wall. You need a work space that includes fridge to prep to stove. Putting it on the sink wall, unless it's at the stove end, makes for mixed/crossing zones. But that makes it less accessible to others who may want to access it while you cook. You don't want them getting in your way.

Did you say if windows could move? I'm not sure why you have so much space to the left of the main sink.

    Bookmark   February 2, 2013 at 7:33PM
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Thanks for your suggestions, advice and that wonderful 3D layout ! Wow! More than I ever expected! To answer some of your questions:

We are not totally relying on the architect for the final layout of the kitchen. We are hoping to get some feedback from the cabinet places we are considering.

Windows- we were hoping to keep all three existing windows or at least some of them in their respective spots for as much natural light as possible as well as to keep within our budget. If it is within our budget and helps the flow and function of the kitchen then we are willing to move, remove or eliminate them.

Kitchen door- I've always thought that this door should be closed up or moved to continue the flow of the counters around the room.mI don't know if its within the budget to get rid of the door ( and steps outside) and/ or relocate it. I have emailed the architect to ask if it's possible within our budget. My husband is not on board with removing that door YET... He is attached to the door's function as a direct access to the trash/ recycling area directly down the stairs and it also gives me access to my lettuce and herb garden in the side yard in the summer. If we remove this door we would have to use the sliding doors in the breakfast room to throw out the trash and recyclables.

I have read the "read me" kitchen thread and trying to make my layout fit the guidelines. I don't know if any of can be applied to my kitchen as it is now. As Marcolo said "it's a do over".Lol

Do you think closing up the kitchen door would vastly improve the layout?

Thank you all again for your help.

    Bookmark   February 3, 2013 at 8:30PM
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Can you open up the sink window into door mode?

Please post your measurements.

    Bookmark   February 3, 2013 at 8:49PM
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Yes closing the door would vastly improve the layout. That would be an excellent first change.

    Bookmark   February 3, 2013 at 8:51PM
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Good morning,

I emailed the architect and he said he was always for keeping the door but ultimately it's my decision. According to him, it wouldn't add much additional expense to remove that door and put a window there, if that's what we wanted. So, that's a relief. He thought the flow was good as is. I bet he probably doesn't do a lot of the cooking ( or cleaning) in his family. I can't imagine being jammed up in that corner loading the dishwasher. The door , we were going to replace the existing door with, would have probably been a full panel of glass for more light in the kitchen. Not a good combination with a dishwasher behind it. Now, I just have to get my dh on board!

Garden window ( behind sink) in door mode- I don't think this would be possible as right outside our sliding doors ( in breakfast room) is a raised stone patio. The stairs leading down to the side yard and beyond are almost directly under this window. Also, turning the window (to the right of the range) a door is also impossible as the outside stairs leading to the basement are almost right underneath. It would have been a great idea to turn that area into a mudroom of sorts.

Measurements- the only measurements not listed on the layout above, I think, are the two window measurements ( flanking the range) and aisle widths. Those windows are 28" wide by 39.5" high. The aisle widths are 3ft 6", if I recall correctly. The kitchen is on the west side of the house so we get direct sun as it's setting.

Please, if there is anything I left out, ask away!

Thank you very much for taking time out of your day to help me.


PS I just edited this post to include a response to a question about a windows possibly becoming doors posed by ttbl123. TY

This post was edited by dazedandconfused on Mon, Feb 4, 13 at 10:53

    Bookmark   February 4, 2013 at 9:04AM
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Actually, quite a few measurements are missing. We need the length/width of each wall/window/door and the distance b/w each wall/window/door. In your case, we also need the distance b/w the top wall and the bottom wall on the left side of the kitchen.

    Bookmark   February 4, 2013 at 10:14PM
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Good Afternoon.

My apologies for misunderstanding. I measured and provided the missing measurements to the best of my ability. The architect has not provided me with all measurements yet.

A) 92"

B) 96"

C) 22"

D) 30"

E) 30" w x 80" tall ( we are hoping to close this door up)

F) 16.5"

G) 65.5"

H) 12"

I) 25"

J) 42"

K) 31.5"

L) 63"

M) 14ft

Basement door is 81"h x 24" wide

2 Windows flanking range are 33"h x 28 " wide each ( the one closest to the kitchen door will probably be closed up. See updated plan below)

Dining room doorway ( bottom right on plan) is 81" h x 30" wide

Thank you so much! I really appreciate your time and help.

I'm also attaching an updated floor plan that closes one of the small windows flanking the range but still shows the kitchen door. I'm 99.99% sure this door will be closed up.

    Bookmark   February 5, 2013 at 1:58PM
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Sorry, I think I left out one of the measurements. The measurement between the two small walls on the left side of the kitchen is approximately 118" give or take an inch or two. I'm not sure exactly how wide those two wing walls will be. They're probably going to be between 24- 26" each.



This post was edited by dazedandconfused on Tue, Feb 5, 13 at 16:45

    Bookmark   February 5, 2013 at 1:59PM
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To those of you that are still with me and are willing to help, I just realized I never posted the existing layout of my current kitchen.

Thank you to all who have responded already.

Here she is:

    Bookmark   February 7, 2013 at 1:00PM
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