Kitchen Layout HELP!!!!

nene45January 29, 2014

Help!!! I am sooooo stressed. We bought an old house that we are renovating and I have a kitchen designer doing the layout and the layout doesn't seem to be very efficient. I want an ultra modern design. I have my appliances. I have a 42' Subzero side by side, a 37' thermador electric cooktop, 30' thermador oven, bosche dishwasher, and an advantium oven microwave. The kitchen is small and connects to the sunroom and the designer suggests removing the wall which is weight bearing. Suggestions please!!! I am so stressed over this cause I don't like what he has come up with. Help!!!!!

I am including all 3 designs. The first design is the wall removed and it's all kitchen. The 2nd design will be with the weight bearing wall still there. This 2nd design has the angled island. The 3rd design will be the designers 1st design tweeked.

http://s1337.photobucket.com/user/geninevh/slideshow/3rd KITCHEN DESIGN

http://s1337.photobucket.com/user/geninevh/slideshow/2nd KITCHEN DESIGN WALL REMOVED

http://s1337.photobucket.com/user/geninevh/slideshow/

This post was edited by nene45 on Thu, Jan 30, 14 at 20:57

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benjesbride

Do you have a drawing of the existing layout? I'm wondering if the door in the upper left can be moved somewhere behind the refrigerator? Or is that a closet that can be eliminated?

    Bookmark   January 29, 2014 at 10:42PM
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nene45

The door in the upper left goes to my basement. I can moved the windows and just about everything else, but I don't think I can move that door.

    Bookmark   January 29, 2014 at 10:49PM
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benjesbride

Is the other door your primary door outside? If there's also an exit in the sunroom, would you consider eliminating the kitchen door? What's going on on the other side of the fridge and pantry cabinet?

    Bookmark   January 29, 2014 at 11:01PM
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nene45

In this layout the designer has already eliminated the wall to the sunroom and now the kitchen has taken over the sunroom is this layout. the door to the right goes outside. The half wall that is shown next to the exterior door is gone also. The open space you see was part of a wall we knocked out and it goes into the family room. The refrigerator can't go back any further cause the wall is there and there are basement steps underneath. the cut out that you see is cause that is how the wall goes so the designer put a pantry there I guess to utilize the strange layout. I wanted a walk-in pantry not pantry doors and was thinking it should be even with the fridge or whatever will go in that spot.

    Bookmark   January 29, 2014 at 11:13PM
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benjesbride

We recently bought an old house ourselves and are embarking on a whole house renovation. I totally understand the stress you are feeling! It will be interesting to read what the experts have to say about your space; it may help me sort out our own challenges.

My first thoughts are from how we use our kitchen. First, I prefer the microwave to be near the refrigerator, so in this plan I'd put it in the island or the pantry cabinet. Second, a GWer pointed out that the spray from the sink will get all over the island. Since reading that it's personally turned me off from sinks in islands since that's where our kiddos would be crafting and doing homework. Third, my biggest pet peeve right now is traffic through the kitchen. Drives me bonkers. I'd look at closing up that exterior door and moving it into the room the kitchen is open to and freeing up that wall for the sink under the window.

    Bookmark   January 29, 2014 at 11:34PM
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lisa_a

If I'm reading your space dimensions correctly, your KD is dreaming if he thinks your 137" wide kitchen can accommodate a row of perimeter cabs, a 40.5 island (24" deep cabs, 1.5" counter overhang, 15" seating overhang) and adequate aisles between perimeter and island (rec 42") and behind island stools (rec 44"). To do what he's suggesting, your kitchen would need to be at least 15" wider.

True, there is a large opening behind the island stools but the opening would need to be wider than the island in order to have sufficient clearance between wall and island at the ends of the island (you'll see what I mean when you look at my drawing below).

I also wondered why he had so much wasted space between the island and the window/door wall. My rough estimate is that there is about 72". I looked at your drawings and I can't figure out what possible reason there could be to leave that large a space underused.

So here's an idea for you.

First off, I eliminated the pantry cabs in favor of a walk-in pantry next to the fridge, as you proposed. It was the first thing I thought of when I looked at the room's odd shape.

I created an L lay-out, moving the clean-up sink and DW to the window/door wall.

I reduced the depth of the island to a single row of 24" deep cabs with 1.5" counter overhang. The island location did not change. I estimated the length of the island based on my guess that the fridge is set back about 8" from the basement stairway doorway. I added a prep sink to it to create a good work triangle between pantry, fridge, oven, MW and cook top. I placed the sink in from the right end of the island so that you could have a 24" deep cab, facing the sink and DW, for dishes and silverware storage. I kept the left end of the island free for fridge, pantry and oven landing zone.

Oh, yeah, I eliminated the cook top bump-out. You just don't have the luxury of space to do that. Besides, when I think of ultra modern design, I envision stream-lined shapes.

You could bring the fridge and pantry forward to be even with the basement stairs door, too. You'd have a bit of dead space behind the fridge but you'd gain a slightly deeper pantry. You'd need to shorten the island a little bit but at 93" long, you could lose a few inches without a problem.

In Plan B, I did just that.

The yellow behind the fridge denotes a void space.

I also modified the island shape to allow you to have 3 seats at the island. Wasn't sure how critical that is for you.

    Bookmark   January 30, 2014 at 4:01AM
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lisa_a

I forgot to add this last night: if the walk-in pantry is large enough to store more than pantry goods (small appliances, trays & other items used infrequently), you may not need to have upper cabs in your kitchen. That would definitely give it a sleek, modern look.

Here are two unusually shaped islands to give you inspiration for your kitchen:

Contemporary Kitchen by Minneapolis Design-Build Firms Jones Design Build
Notice that the above island does not have a cab at the near end, just support for the island top. That's one way to get another seat at the island and still have an adequate aisle behind the island.

You could also use a different counter material for the seating area, rectangularly cut instead of the angled cut I drew.

Contemporary Kitchen by Eden Prairie Architects & Designers Jaque Bethke for PURE Design Environments Inc.
Rather slick looking, don't you think? I wouldn't do the short divider; there's no need for it and you'd lose function since your island is narrower than this one.

    Bookmark   January 30, 2014 at 1:22PM
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nene45

Thank you all for the help. I am going to read them now and then respond. I wasn't sure if I put the links in right for photobucket so I am going to try to post all of the pics here. There are a total of 3 designs. The design with the angled counter does NOT have the wall removed and the other 2 are designs with the wall gone.
Here is what the kitchen designer sent me: The walkway is 42" between the wall oven and island with 39" between the cooktop and island. The cooktop is extended out 3" to allow room for a pop up vent behind it. This plan does have the wall removed so it is all kitchen up to the exterior door. To give you and idea of where things are, there is a small square below the island on the floor plan. That is the support post we figured would have to stay. The floor plan will also have the room dimensions. .I'm going to read the posts and put more pics up shortly so hopefully this will help you all in helping me. Also, I am not concerned that much about having seating at the island. It's just my husband and I and the kids when they come to visit. I want a place where I can bake cookies and roll out dough if I want to. I want to be able to prepare dinner with ease when I chop up vegetables. I want a place to put my Kuerig and a place for everything so I have nothing on the counter cause I hate clutter. I hope this helps.

    Bookmark   January 30, 2014 at 5:28PM
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nene45

Okay here are the pics of the 2nd design with the weight bearing wall still there.





    Bookmark   January 30, 2014 at 5:54PM
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nene45

This is the other design he did that was tweeked from the 1st design.









    Bookmark   January 30, 2014 at 6:03PM
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nene45

@ Lisa_a thank you so much for the input! I tried enlarging the revisions you made but for some reason it won't let me. Can you tell me how to do it cause I really want to see it better.

Here are my answers to what you wrote: I love, love, love having the walk in pantry bumped to look even. That was what I was trying to tell the KD I wanted and apparently he didn't listen...lol. In the pantry I want to put mops, brooms, kitchen aid mixer, food, etc.

I love the idea of a prep sink this would be great so I have all the usable space to bake if I choose.

Is there another way we can do the dishwasher? I am left handed and it would be better for me if the dishwasher was to the left of the main sink. The 24" cabinet is it big enough to hold my a complete set of 8 dinner plates, bowls, salad plates, etc. I wanted some type of large deep drawer to hold them.

I agree the bumpout for the stove does not look very sleek. he did it cause he asked me what kind of ventilation and I said pop up but I could change the ventilation so I will have a sleeker look.

I wanted a large, deep drawer under the cooktop for pots and pans, a spice drawer, and a deep drawer for cooking utensils and one for potholders.

The KD was suppose to give me a kitchen garage or something to hide the Keurig and my toaster, but he did not. I want a place for these but I want them hidden cause I hate counter clutter.

I also wanted a drawer for my bread.

If you have anymore ideas I would really appreciate them.

The pics you posted well the top one I absolutly love. It is really sharp looking and the 2nd pic I think is more functional.

    Bookmark   January 30, 2014 at 6:43PM
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nene45

@ benjesbride thank you for the input. I cannot move the exterior door I have to have one there but I can add a side light and I do have to decided what style of windows I am putting in the kitchen and where cause we are gutting the whole room to the studs and its getting new everything.

    Bookmark   January 30, 2014 at 6:51PM
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debrak2008

Don't get hung up on what side the dw is to the sink. I am right handed and like the dw on the left. Either side will work.

    Bookmark   January 30, 2014 at 7:42PM
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lisa_a

You're welcome, nene! Save my drawing to your photo file. Once you've done that, you should be able to enlarge it. That's what I did with your images.

Adding to what debrak wrote: the generally recommended location for a DW for right-handed people is on the left side of the sink, so it stands to reason that the suggested location for a DW for left-handed people would be on the right side of the sink. But honestly, I don't pay attention to that nearly as much as locating the DW where it makes the most sense, function-wise. Sorry to say, but there isn't room to put the DW to the left of the sink. You'd have *no* counter to the right of the sink, which would not be good at all.

I wondered what that square was. So it doesn't line up with the wall? If it intrudes into the kitchen area as it seems to do on your drawing, then you really do not have room for island seating, IMO. How much room is there between the 42" wall and the post? It looks fairly narrow. If the post has to stay where it's shown on the drawing, I'd be tempted to either reduce the 42" wall to enlarge the opening or extend the wall to the post.

Why are you set on a pop-up downdraft? They are costly to purchase and install, are noisier and don't work nearly as well as a hood. Plus, you lose storage in the cabs below. I have a pop-up downdraft for my island cook top and my shelves for cookware are only 11" deep. Newer pop-ups don't take up as much room as my nearly 20 year pop-up does but the guts for a pop-up will reduce drawer depth, even with the additional 3" bump-out. (I can not wait to move my cook top to the perimeter so that I can install a hood and have full depth storage under the cook top. Even with the cost to move the gas line, we'll still save money because venting will be so much cheaper!)

I'm not a fan of your KD's Plan 2 at all. It's seriously lacking decent function, IMO. His 3rd design (tweak of design 1) is a huge improvement over Plan 2. Two things I'd tweak in Plan 3. 1) create a walk-in pantry as I showed on my plan. 2) ditch the island seating. As I wrote above, the post and wall make for tight quarters for seating, especially since this is a main path from other areas of the home to the back door and to the basement stairs. The other reason is that a 36" wide island provides only a 10.5" seating overhang, which is doable but shallower than recommended (15" for a 36" high counter). And because it's shallower than recommended, anyone seated at the island will intrude into the aisle ways just as much as if you had a larger overhang.

I think you'd be better off adding shallow storage to the backside of the island. You could opt for a combination of closed storage and open display shelving like this:

Contemporary Kitchen by Boston Architects & Designers Marcus Gleysteen Architects

Even with my suggested tweaks to the KD's Plan 3, I prefer my Plan A. It gives you a good separation between prep and clean-up areas and the cook top is across from the long side of the island so you have plenty of room to spread out for cooking or baking prep.

Oops, nearly forgot to answer your question. I've no idea whether 1 bank of drawers will house all of your

    Bookmark   January 30, 2014 at 8:50PM
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Sophie Wheeler

Lisa's plan is FAR superior to anything the KD came up with. In addition, any KD who would suggest that run laps around the kichen second design should be held as highly suspect that they know what they are doing.

A downdraft is a complete waste of money and effort when you can have a real hood. There is no point in putting a nice new kitchen in a house only to coat it with greasy dust quickly.

BTW, be sure to consider the style of the house when planning the kitchen. You may prefer modern style, but the home may fight you on that. It's always the kitchens that look at home in their surroundings that last the longest without looking dated. Or like a time traveler from Vorgon plopped a mystery box into the middle of a nice old Foursquare.

    Bookmark   January 30, 2014 at 9:24PM
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sena01

I like lisa's layouts much more than the kd's. But if you prefer no sink on the island then kd's last layout with, lisa's pantry and suggestions re the island can be your 2nd best alternative imo. If you go with that layout maybe you can squeeze a narrow pullout b/w the pantry and the wall oven for mobs, brooms, so you won't have them in the pantry. If you don't have any seats on the island or just have 2 on the left then you can have a wider cab for plates, etc in lisa's layout.

The corner b/w the sink and cooktop would be a good location for the appliance garage.

I did my reno 2 years ago, and my kitchen is modern. I have wide uppers with uplifting doors. If you are tall, I highly recommend them. I have long horizontal pulls on both uppers and base cabs, about 1/2 of the cabs width.

I'm left handed and prefer the DW on the right btw. Never used a DW with cutlery rack so don't have any idea about those, but with cutlery baskets, I find using the plate racks easier when DW is on my right.

    Bookmark   January 30, 2014 at 9:56PM
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nene45

Omg Lisa! You have no idea how you are taking my stress away and I am finally getting excited over my kitchen again. The 42" wall was knocked out it is gone. The Square that you see has to stay. It is a weight bearing column, but I am going to angle the one side and have a built in Niche' with a tall sculpture with accent lighting. I think that would look nice when you walk in the back door. The column protrudes about 8 inches.

I ABSOLUTELY LOVE the idea of doing away with the seating at the island since you posted that pic. Now I think it will be possible to have a small pet center to put my puppies food and water bowls.

So what total width do you think the island should be? I'm a little confused. Should it be 36" or I seen on your plan it said 27"?

Do you think I should put a kitchen garage in for my Keurig Coffee or do you have another suggestion?

I am going to do away with the downdraft now that you have told me I will loose so much space. I had a big hood over my cooktop in my last house and all they are is big dust collectors so I think I may look for one that slides in and out.

    Bookmark   January 30, 2014 at 10:09PM
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nene45

debrak thank you for the suggestion for the dishwasher. I read what you and Lisa wrote then went in the kitchen to experiment and it will be fine. So thank you cause at first I thought this definitely would have to be moved

    Bookmark   January 30, 2014 at 10:15PM
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nene45

Hollysprings I agree you should be aware of the style of the house, but this time around I'm doing what I want in the moment. I have always had newly built houses, but when I seen this house I fell in love with it cause I thought I could do everything I want. I think it may be considered a four square...lol. But we plan on never moving so it's gonna be my way this time...lol. Here is a pic of the houe when we firt bought it. We have since removed the trees and painted the front door, but I told my husband we are not doing anything with the exterior til my kitchen is done...lol Here are pics of the exterior.

    Bookmark   January 30, 2014 at 10:36PM
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nene45

sena01 I am so glad you posted. I was so hoping you would. I am new to the forums and have been admiring your work. You come up with great ideas so any input you have would be greatly appreciated. I really like the idea of being able to have at least 2 seats on the island cause it would be nice to sit while doing the prep especially during the holidays. Sometimes there is 3 working in the kitchen but more often there is 2. I would love to see the pics of your modern kitchen! I luv the idea of the small pullout pantry for the mops and such. Then I wouldn't have the messy dirty items in my pantry.

I am adding pics of another design the KD did. I thought I put it up but evidently didn't. Please look through the designs and let me know what you think or if you can come up with a whole different better idea I would welcome the suggestion. Thank you!









    Bookmark   January 30, 2014 at 11:25PM
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nene45

Sena and Lisa and Anyone who may be viewing this thread. If anyone thinks there is a completely different better idea than a version that the KD came up with I would love the input. I am not set to the design the KD did and if you have a completely different idea please let me know. The people in this forum are so AWESOME. I wish I started posting sooner. Thank you to all!

    Bookmark   January 30, 2014 at 11:31PM
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lisa_a

I'm so glad I was able to help!

I think there's a way to get two seats at the island but I need to know exactly where that post is. I need the dimensions for the distances between top wall and right top corner of the post and between the right side wall and the right top corner of the post (see red lines on drawing).

Re: your question about width of the island. If you only do one row of 24" deep cabs, then your island would be 27" wide. If you do a row of 24" deep cabs back to back with a run of shallow cabs (9"-12", depending on that pillar and other clearances), then your island would be deeper by that much. If you add seats, your island would be 40.5" deep.

27" deep island:
24" deep cabs
3" total counter overhang (1.5" overhang on all sides)

36" deep island (as your KD drew)
24" deep cabs along front
9" deep cabs along the back
3" total counter overhang

40.5 deep island
24" deep cabs along front
1.5" counter overhang along the front
15" seating overhang (this is the minimum rec per NKBA).

Given the space constraints due to the post, your island will likely be a combination of depths to give you what you want. I'll know more once you provide the post's dimensions to me. Also, could you explain more what you mean by "...I am going to angle the one side and have a built in Niche' with a tall sculpture with accent lighting." Angle in which direction? Towards the bottom right corner of the drawing? I'm quite confused what you mean by this. I also don't know what you mean by "The column protrudes about 8 inches." Do you mean the support post? It's 8" in diameter? Or do you mean the wall with the niche in it is 8" wide?

You can include an appliance garage in the top right corner of the kitchen in my Plan A or B. That seems the most convenient location since it would be close to a water source and mostly likely close to where you'll store you coffee cups.

For some odd reason, the end of my final sentence in my post above went missing so I'll finish my thought now. I've no idea whether 1 bank of drawers will house your "complete set of 8 dinner plates, bowls, salad plates, etc." I don't know the size of your plates or what the etc includes. The best way to figure out how much storage you need is to mock up a drawer with the depth and width of your proposed drawer - blue painters tape on your counter would work - and lay your dishes "inside" the drawer. Remember to mark the inside dimensions of the drawer, not the outside dimensions. The inside of a drawer will likely be around 3" narrower than the cab but that will depend on your cab construction.

......I thought I'd seen the worst of the designs by your KD but I was wrong. That last one completely ignores the NKBA recommendations for clearance space around a cook top - at least 12" on one side and 15" on the other. You're not getting your money's worth out of him at all and I'm really sorry about that, for your sake.

Thanks for the compliment, hollysprings and sena!

    Bookmark   January 31, 2014 at 2:28AM
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sena01

It's probably very obvious for experts, but KD's 2nd plan (the one with the angled island) confused me.Which wall is the load bearing one?

Another question. If I'm reading the numbers correctly, the pantry cabs seem to have different widths in layout 1, and the one tweaked from it. Why??

    Bookmark   January 31, 2014 at 4:15PM
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lisa_a

I couldn't figure it out either, Sena, but I didn't really try because I didn't want to waste my time studying a lay-out that I thought was less than optimal.

    Bookmark   January 31, 2014 at 8:35PM
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lavender_lass

I think Lisa's layout are usually much better than the KD's. If I ever need to do a reno, I'm posting here and getting Lisa's help...and Sena's wonderful sketches :)

    Bookmark   January 31, 2014 at 9:10PM
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lavender_lass

duplicate post...

This post was edited by lavender_lass on Fri, Jan 31, 14 at 21:12

    Bookmark   January 31, 2014 at 9:11PM
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nene45

Lisa the measurements from the top wall to right corner post are 10' 10".

Right side wall to right post is 5'8"

    Bookmark   January 31, 2014 at 9:30PM
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nene45

Lisa I was not able to find a pic of how I want the Niche so hopefully between these pics you will understand what I mean. It should not affect any of the dimensions. The column will be angled instead of squared off. There will be a square cut into the wall that will hold the sculpture with down lighting on the sculpture.
It will have a long narrow cutout like the pic below

the column will have a 45 degree angle like this wall below

    Bookmark   January 31, 2014 at 10:33PM
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nene45

Here are some actual pictures. Keep in mind we are in the construction faze and we doing the demolition part ourselves. Living in the house while this is going on is no picnic...lol

The pic below is the corner support column. The view is from me standing in the existing partially demolished kitchen. Hopefully from these pics you will get a better sense of the area.

In the pic below I am in the family room and the view to the left is the kitchen, then back of column, to the right is the existing sunroom.

Pic below I am in the sunroom and this is the other side of the column. This is where I want to put the Niche'.

Pic below is closeup of column from me standing in sunroom.

Pic below this is the sculpture I want to put in and the Niche' will be in the middle of the column maybe eye level or slightly higher cause the sculpture is long.

Pic below showing height of sculpture

    Bookmark   January 31, 2014 at 11:28PM
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nene45

Lisa, the angled island design was by another KD, all the other designs are the KD, and before that I went to Home Depot, Lowe's, and Ikea. For some reason I can't find anyone qualified until now with everyone helping me on this wonderful site.

    Bookmark   January 31, 2014 at 11:38PM
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nene45

Sena the pics below are in the existing Sunroom. The wall to the left is the weight bearing wall. I am standing in the family room taking the pic. Please keep in mind we bought the house not long ago and the Sunroom and the Kitchen are the worst...lol.

Pic below closeup of Load Bearing Wall. This wall is the divide between the Kitchen and the Sunroom. The KD said this wall had to go cause there was no way to fit the appliances I have in storage in the space.

The pic below is where the KD shows as a 42" wall. I was going to make it into a half wall and when I seen it I didn't like it so I knocked the whole wall out not realizing I would leave a hole in my floor that goes straight to the basement...lol. Gotta love old houses....lol. The exterior door is to the right.

Oh, I have no idea why the KD has different widths for the pantry cabinets.

    Bookmark   February 1, 2014 at 12:07AM
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Sophie Wheeler

OMG! The ''KD'' just keeps getting worse. Find someone else to deal with.They are dangerously clueless. It's like they are playing with a set of blocks without being able to read the alphabet on them.

    Bookmark   February 1, 2014 at 12:36AM
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nene45

Lisa, in your Plan A if my Refrigerator is set back a little I will not be able to fully open the Refrigerator door so I think it will have to be even with the basement door so I can fully open it.

    Bookmark   February 1, 2014 at 12:59AM
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nene45

Holly, I know. I think he is playing with building blocks. Now you know why I am soooo stressed and frustrated. I am from Jersey and there I had no problems finding qualified KD to do my kitchen, but when we moved to West Virginia I am having a very hard time finding a qualified KD.

    Bookmark   February 1, 2014 at 1:57AM
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lisa_a

Thanks for providing the dimensions I requested, nene, and posting photos. It really helped me visualize your space. I've drawn up two more plans for you that, as accurately as possible, take into account the post's impact on your kitchen planning.

First off, disregard Plans A & B. They won't work because of the post's location. I don't know what your KDs were smoking when they drew up plans with seating at the island but they must have been smoking something to think that there is enough room for an island with seating in your kitchen. By my calculations, there would only be 22" between seating overhang and post. You could only pull the bar stool out so far before banging it into the post. And forget about walking between island and post. Poor, poor planning.

Plan D is a variation of Plan A.

I shifted the island 2 inches closer to the cook top run to give you 37.5" between post and island. My aim was to make that space seem spacious enough so that people walking between back door and fridge or back door and basement stairs would walk around the backside of the island and not through the working part of your kitchen.

I tried to figure out a way to add seating to the island but that post's location ruled out all my ideas (really tested my math skills, too!).

For Plan C, I embraced the post, making it a purposeful part of the kitchen.

You gain a huge island with seating for 2 (the yellow block in the center of the island is a void between cabinets and counter support).

The downside of this plan is that the island's shape could direct traffic through the working part of the kitchen, not around the bottom of the island, to get to the fridge or basement stairs. One way to deal with the former situation would be to put in fridge drawers or a beverage fridge in the island facing the back door.

Plan C won't work if your couch stays where it's shown in your photos. It looks like it's either right up against or very close to the post. Island and couch would create a massive roadblock to traffic moving through that space. Hopefully, you can rearrange your furniture so that's not an issue.

Are you sure that post has to stay? If you haven't consulted a structural engineer, I would do so. You may discover a reasonable solution that would allow you to remove it, gaining you more leeway in your kitchen planning. You could always create a lighted niche for your statue in another location in your home.

NOTE: I didn't say this earlier but all my aisle clearances are counter edge to counter edge, counter edge to appliance face or counter edge to wall.

(Thanks for the compliment, LL. You always have kind words for me.)

    Bookmark   February 1, 2014 at 1:27PM
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Sophie Wheeler

Think about relocating that door on the right since it's an open concept space now. That would allow the cleanup sink cabinets to continue down to the other post and provide a better traffic path and more cabinetry.

    Bookmark   February 1, 2014 at 1:49PM
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nene45

Lisa you are awesome. I so glad you are helping me. Plan D is hard for me to visualize from the sketch. That's why the KD has to do both for me cause I'm the type that really has to see it to figure if it will work for me.

It seems like in C the island would actually be where my weight bearing wall is. I have not consulted a structural engineer yet. But, i think I'm going to have to.

Do you think a whole new design should be done a different way since you are thinking I am not going to have much space? I value your opinion so let me know what you think.

Yes, my furniture can be moved but it will block the other opening going into my formal living room. I'm gonna go tonight and buy some graph paper to draw my house layout so you can see what I mean and I will try to take some pics so you can see.

    Bookmark   February 1, 2014 at 4:36PM
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nene45

Holly yes you are right moving the door would allow better traffic flow, but I can't move it to the right cause then it would open into my family room and cause the house is on the corner I have a front door and a side door and everybody uses the side door in more than front door, and also if it was moved it would be next to my living room window actually real close to it.

    Bookmark   February 1, 2014 at 4:41PM
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nene45

Here is the view from the family room showing the archway into the living room so if I move it it will block that opening also.

you can see the window and how close it is to the door.

This post was edited by nene45 on Sat, Feb 1, 14 at 22:57

    Bookmark   February 1, 2014 at 4:55PM
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Imp.capensis

nene--

Where in WV are you? There used to be a good KD (I think) in Morgantown if you're anywhere near that town. BTW I'm from Jersey too (near Philly), but we moved here from the DC area. It's been quite the culture shock. Good luck to you getting settled.

    Bookmark   February 1, 2014 at 5:22PM
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twosit

Wow! You guys are great! Lisa, your plans are so much better than what was originally presented. My first thought when looking at the original designs was why is that wall not being utilized --you guys saw it too and presented alternatives.
Taking up all that space in the original plan for the frig seems crazy.
NeNe--Good luck with your renovation--it looks like a great project.

    Bookmark   February 1, 2014 at 6:03PM
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nene45

Imp.capensis I'm in tyler county, wv about 2 hours from morgantown. where r u in wv? most of my family is from south philly. what part of philly are you from? small world..lol
.

    Bookmark   February 1, 2014 at 11:01PM
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sena01

Just a few suggestions you may consider with Lisa's very functional layouts.

1. You can resize the cabs on the range wall and have a shallow broom closet facing the basement door next to the oven cab. Lots of examples here.

2. Did you see Linodendron's post of Jan 24, 14 at 18:36 on this tread.

In my kitchen my prep area and cooktop are on my right, but I usually find myself working on a much smaller area on the left of the sink I think this is because I'm left handed (I do the same thing in our summerhouse as well). So if you think you'll prefer having the prep area on your left I suggest you to have the prep sink near the fridge side. I find that arrangement better also because anything you get from the fridge that needs washing can go to the sink immediately instead of landing on your prep area. So from the fridge side it can be trash, sink and 2 cabs; last one facing the DW (trash on the cleanup sink could be under the main sink).

For island seating, other than Lısa's triangular one, the only shape that I could think of was using (half of) an asymmetrical hexagon for the bar.

Lisa, or anyone one following this tread, can you please check my numbers and logic? Does it make any sense?

Long side would be 60" (assumed 90" long island) the short sides about 21,21". (that is a right angled triangle with 2 equal sides (15").). But, .there'd be just 29,5" b/w the 60" part and the FR opening. On the niche side, if both the beam and the island bar would make a 45 degree angle then you'd keep the 37,5 aisle Lisa calculated, for the length of the beam. On the other side, at the point bar reaches 15" depth there'd be a distance of about 37,5" to the end of the opening.

I have strange shaped pantry in the drawing, because KD has different length for that wall in his 2 layouts. .

Nene, some pics from my kitchen are in this tread.

edited to add some more dimensions.

This post was edited by sena01 on Sun, Feb 2, 14 at 8:55

    Bookmark   February 2, 2014 at 7:25AM
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Imp.capensis

I grew up in Cherry Hill, NJ, eons ago; my dad worked in Philly. We're in Harrison Co. about a half hr SW of Clarksburg; I think you and I are separated by Doddridge & Ritchie counties. I'm guessing Parkersburg is the closest big town to you. When I was looking for KDs in the area, I came across websites for one or some in Marietta, just across the river in OH. Such a pretty little town that is. But I don't know anything about them other than what their websites show. I'm really liking what the talented people here are coming up with for your kitchen. In particular, the pantry/fridge configuration sena01 is showing in her latest is helping me rethink my space. I'm looking forward to seeing how it all comes together for you.

    Bookmark   February 2, 2014 at 11:20AM
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nene45

Omg! Sena thank u so much for the sketch. Now I can visualize. After seeing it now I don't know what I want. I was gonna take out the weight bearing wall cause the kitchen was so small but now seeing it well it doesn't look much bigger once I bring the pantry out.

Do you know what the size of my kitchen would be? I brought a table in my kitchen to figure spaces and now I know why you need at least 40".

It seems like I'm going to have to decide between style or function. Ugh. I did like the pic Lisa posted up above that had a funky island.

    Bookmark   February 3, 2014 at 11:41PM
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sena01

The program I'm using calculates the kitchen area as 208 sq ft and the pantry as 25 sq ft (if the small area behind the fridge area isn't available then it's 22 sq ft).

I wouldn't consider 208 sq ft as small, but I'm used to much smaller kitchens. In our summer house my kitchen is just 96 sq ft, and my other kitchen with 161,5 sq ft seems quite large to me.

    Bookmark   February 4, 2014 at 3:59AM
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nene45

Sena I tried pulling the measurement off of the layout and if I'm figuring right if I figure from where the pantry door is to the exterior door is about 17' and width is about 11'???? Did I figure right? Sena is it possible for you to put Lisa's layout of the triangle island in a pic like you did with the last one? It would give me a better idea of how it would look. Btw what software do you use?

Lisa with my kitchen is the problem the support beam or is it the width of the kitchen is too narrow? We got hit with a bad snow storm. As soon as it clears I'm gonna get some graph paper and sketch the downstairs of my house unless I can find something on line to do it. We are getting rid of the arches in the downstairs to open the spaces. I am trying to do the kitchen as inexpensive as I possibly can, cause we have a lot of rooms to redo. Because we are redoing the downstairs I can steal space from other rooms if need be.

Does anyone know if there is any graph paper online to sketch your plan on line or easy to use software to redesign your and change closed off rooms to open floor plan?

    Bookmark   February 4, 2014 at 9:03AM
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nene45

Imp I have to ask if you are Italian? I am and the areas were you were in Jersey and in Clarksburg are primarily Italian. All my family is from South Philly too so I was always in Philadelphia. I will have to check into some KD's in Marietta, but so far what Lisa and Sena are doing is unbelievable. I'm have to talk to my KD and find out wth he was thinking and why the measurements are different.

    Bookmark   February 4, 2014 at 9:08AM
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Imp.capensis

Italy is about the only European country my ancestors are not from (although my Hungarian grandma spent some time in Italy as an au pair), but there were big Italian families in our neighborhood. Pretty sure their extended families were in Philly.

Lisa and Sena have come up with great ideas for your space. They really listen, which seems like at least half the job of a good designer, and then they do their magic. It will be interesting to hear what your KD says when you show him what they (and you) have come up with.

    Bookmark   February 4, 2014 at 10:07AM
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sena01

Sena I tried pulling the measurement off of the layout and if I'm figuring right if I figure from where the pantry door is to the exterior door is about 17' and width is about 11'???? Did I figure right? Sena is it possible for you to put Lisa's layout of the triangle island in a pic like you did with the last one? It would give me a better idea of how it would look. Btw what software do you use?

Yes, I went with the measurement on KD's drawings.Mind you, I'm no pro my walls sometimes move lol, but I tried to be as close to the measurements as I can, before I gave you the area.

I'll try to draw Lisa's island and post pics. The program I'm using is Home Designer Interiors, not free unfortunately (abt $.100.- now I think).

Some treads about free design programs:

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchbath/msg1211371417837.html

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchbath/msg012147428493.html

    Bookmark   February 4, 2014 at 10:22AM
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sena01

Pics are ready. I had the beam placed diagonally before, forgot to change it, so it doesn't touch the island as Lisa's. It'll look great imo.

    Bookmark   February 4, 2014 at 11:02AM
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nene45

Omg! Sena you did an AMAZING job! I am just speechless. From these pics I really get a feeling of a real kitchen. I really did not not think the triangle would look as good as it does, but it does look good. Even down to the wall colors.

I hate to ask but are you able to do that with her plan D? I am thinking I may have to get an engineer out here cause it would be so nice open with that column gone.

and again Thank you, thank you, thank you!

    Bookmark   February 4, 2014 at 4:38PM
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sena01

No problem at all. I just change the islands, that's all, very easy

    Bookmark   February 4, 2014 at 5:05PM
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nene45

Boy oh boy that was quick Sena. Thank you! What size is the island? Hmmm I'm not sure which one I like better. Which one do you like better?

I was watched the tutorial of the software you use, and what it does is unbelievable. It reminds me of HGTV. It looks like it takes a lot to learn. You are very talented.

    Bookmark   February 4, 2014 at 5:16PM
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lisa_a

I have Chief Architect but I've yet to spend the time to learn it (large learning curve but once learned, very slick) so I'm glad you're able to provide nene with 3-D images of my plans, sena. Thank you for doing that!

Nene, I like the triangle island, too, but I'm concerned about how it will affect the living room, especially given the limited options you have for placing that large sectional sofa. Unless you plan to replace it, you need to consider its impact on your kitchen plans. For that reason, if the post must stay, I think my Plan D is your best bet. It's still a very nice work space with loads of storage and counter.

Where is your dining room?

    Bookmark   February 4, 2014 at 5:58PM
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nene45

Lisa, I actually haven't decided where I am putting the dining room yet. I'm thinking it may be the room connecting to the family room which is on the other side of the wall where the pantry is. It is totally open since we removed the arch that divided the 2 rooms. Where the previous owner had situated the rooms did not make much sense to me. Since we moved in we move furniture from room to room while working on the house.

I'm gonna draw on a paper the layout of the house and post shortly just so you can get an idea of the space. I will post shortly.

I had a contractor come out and he gave me a computerized drawing of the room with nothing in it. I'm gonna post that to so you can see.

    Bookmark   February 4, 2014 at 9:28PM
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twosit

Nena- I'm putting a link below for grid paper you can print out

Here is a link that might be useful: grid paper link

    Bookmark   February 4, 2014 at 10:27PM
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canuckplayer

Sena: You do very well with that program you have. You have come up with way more functional designs than Nene's KD could even conceive!

I'm definitely not a designer, but I think I preferred your design that had the fridge closer to the "work area". You go to your fridge multiple times during the day and especially during meal prep. You go to the oven less often. Maybe the fridge and the oven could be swapped.

What about incorporating the column into the island, instead of having that small "aisle" between the two? In this way, perhaps it would create a tiny amount of additional storage space, or even a little more stool space.

Also, perhaps the wall extending in front of the pantry could be moved back, leaving a shorter wall for a more open look. Is there any way you could do a pic with this set-up so I can see how far off-base I am?

Nene: After looking at the plans your KD came up with and the plans Sena came up with, I personally think you should dump your KD and hire Sena (lol). If you don't live within a reasonable proximity of each other, it seems Sena could design your kitchen on-line. She's good.
Is your KD certified, or does he/she just work for the cabinetry company? It seems that the original plans were laid out to accommodate cabinetry, not form or function. The revised plans were better only after you showed Sena's plans. The D in KD stands for designer..IMHO your KD needed a design already done so tweaks could be made to show he/she had a clue.

The best design is the one that works for you. When we did our kitchen in a previous house, I wrote down all the things I stored in the kitchen and with a hand drawn mock-up floor plan, designed cabinets around where I felt they were functional for me. I tried acting out a full day - from making the first pot of coffee in the morning to late night snacks. Was the pantry comfortable for prep area and cooktop? Were glasses near the cold drinks? Were plates and cutlery handy to the cooktop? Were prep and cleanup comfortable, with as little walking back and forth as possible. Believe me, I had to "redesign" many times (which meant a lot of redrawing) before I was satisfied.

As for removing that column completely, if it is load bearing, it probably lines up with a 2nd story support, which supports the roof and a basement one (if there's a basement) that supports the main level. If it is removed, it could mean installing a large beam above the opening to the kitchen to rest on some other support on the main level and relocating the second storey AND the basement supports. The load must be continual from the roofline to lowest level. A structural engineer must definitely be consulted. We had a friend that did this and it cost her over $10,000. To her it was worth it..she wanted a full open concept. For me, I'd first try to work around it if possible.

Sorry, I got very long-winded here. Good luck with all your plans--for the kitchen and the rest of your renos.

    Bookmark   February 4, 2014 at 11:17PM
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nene45

This is the Layout of the 1st floor in the pic below. To the right in kitchen I tried to draw a door and made lines going down the basement steps. I did not want to continue drawing more lines cause I thought it may to confusing trying to figure what is kitchen and what is basement.

The things that look like D's are Doors, squares on the walls are windows. This is my 1st time drawing so I hope you can understand it.

The pic below is from a Contractor that came out and measured. He came out before we knocked out some of the wall. So the wall that says 23'6" has been partially knocked out. You can see that from the KD's measurements. These measurements may shed some light on the pantry size cause the size should not have changed at all.

    Bookmark   February 4, 2014 at 11:34PM
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sena01

@canuckplayer, all the layouts are made by lisa_a. I just used a program to show some renderings.

@lisa, nene, I loved the triangle island, but as Lisa indicated it has some limitations. If you can get of that beam out of the way, I think you'll have your super modern kitchen and it will be very functional too, THANKS TO LISA,. Lisa, can't wait to see your layouts with Chief Architect, I'm sure you'll soon learn and use it very good.

    Bookmark   February 5, 2014 at 12:33AM
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lisa_a

Nene, have you considered swapping the DR and the FR? A table in the same space as the large sectional would likely allow you to go with the triangle island plan.

btw, if you go with the triangle plan, you may be able to eliminate upper cabinets on the cook top wall. You'll have plenty of storage supplied by the large walk-in pantry and base cabinets. You could keep the windows and create a very bright, airy, modern space. IMO, it would not be the worst thing in the world to have your Keurig and toaster on the counter, not with all those windows.

If you post your FR and DR space - with dimensions and windows and doorways marked - with the dimensions of the furniture you own or intend to purchase on the Home Decorating forum, you would likely get tips on how to place the furniture to make the most of each space.

(Sena, it was very kind of you to make sure I got credit for the plans, thank you.)

Here is a link that might be useful: Home Decorating & Design

    Bookmark   February 5, 2014 at 2:49PM
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nene45

Lisa I have no problem changing rooms. the only problem that I am having is my furniture from my other house was very large. The only thing I really kept from there was the dining room furniture. Here is a pic of a dining room table similar to mine that I found on the net, but I also have the server and I am trying to see where it will fit. If I can fit it somewhere I can change the room and it wont be an issue. I', going to get new furniture laer so I'm not worried about the sectional cause right now everything ust moves from room to room.

I like the idea of no upper cabinets but it will drive me nuts seeing things on the counter so I have to find a spot for the coffee maker and the toaster.

I will check out that thread though.

    Bookmark   February 5, 2014 at 6:06PM
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canuckplayer

@lisa_a: I'm sorry, I didn't mean to slight you. This thread has become so long, I guess I lost track. Your plans and Sena's renderings are both really great!

    Bookmark   February 6, 2014 at 3:02AM
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nene45

Update: 2 Contractors came out today and the Engineer is scheduled for next week. The structural pillar that I want removed is a major issue from what they are telling me, but I am crossing my fingers and hoping that what the Engineer says has to be done will not be at an extreme cost. So my fingers are crossed!

    Bookmark   February 18, 2014 at 5:54PM
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lisa_a

Didn't see your comment until now, canuckplayer, sorry. Thanks for the apology but it's okay, I know how easy it is to overlook something in these long threads.

Thanks for the update, nene. Fingers crossed for you!

    Bookmark   February 18, 2014 at 7:28PM
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nene45

I was reading through some of the post and it was mentioned since I have the walk in pantry maybe I could eliminate most of the upper cabinets and put windows that way it would give a more modern look and make the room look bigger. I think I am going to go for the rectangular island as in Lisa's design D.

Lisa do you think it is possible to get rid of most of the upper cabinets? I know I will need a space for the exhaust and I want a tall kitchen garage for my coffee maker, but do you think this will be doable?

Thank you!

    Bookmark   February 19, 2014 at 9:06AM
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lisa_a

Nene, only you can determine if the pantry and all your base cabs will provide enough storage for you to forgo upper cabinets. Take an inventory of what you own (measurements included) and where you'd like to store them and go from there.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by a tall appliance garage but I would make it the same height as the oven cab so that it bookends that wall. Here are a few images that hopefully show you what I mean:

(See range wall in this image)

Tropical Kitchen by Manchester General Contractors Windover Construction

Contemporary Kitchen by Other Metro Kitchen & Bath Designers Garrett Dillon Crafted Kitchens & Furniture

Traditional Kitchen by Boston Kitchen & Bath Designers Venegas and Company

    Bookmark   February 20, 2014 at 6:21PM
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