Not my pants in my closet (long)

rob333February 11, 2008

My husband and I have been together and married for nine 1/2 years now. About 4 1/2 years ago, I decided to get back on track, as I'd let myself go a bit. It was time to turn around my appearance. I threw out everything that looked old or matronly, colors that were wrong, things that didn't fit 100% right for my body type and buy all new... I could go on. The point being, I was fanatical about it. I went out and bought two band new pairs of jeans that fit perfectly. One was a straight cut leg and one was boot cut fit. Both were Levi's. I'd decided that brand fit my rear, front and leg length the best. I loved my new Levis. I have always been the type of person who, when I take off my clothes, they end up in the hamper (never even have once understood the philosophy of hanging stinky clothes on bedposts or in chairs, on the floor?). Always. Not a new habit, but fit my new attitude. When hubby did laundry, it sat out on the dining room table. One day, I went to put on my straight cut Levi jeans, but they didn't feel right. They weren't Levi's. Then I went to look for my boot cut Levi's. Not in the closet (I even unhung everything and looked in the bottom of the closet, nope, not there). Then under the bed, then the dining room table. They were no where to be seen. Nowhere. So there I was with jeans that weren't Levi's and my most loved pair gone. We've even moved since then and they didn't turn up in any weird places (like behind the dryer).

How did I lose my Levis but gain jeans I'd never seen, nor would have ever bought?

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I assume since this question is posted on the Marriage forum, that you are wondering if the pants issue suggests a marital problem.

Whenever new articles of clothing appear at my house - (it happens from time to time), I always say, Hey, whose bra is this? He looks at me, shakes his head, and walks off. I then put my mind in gear, and sure enough, i remember that one time when i bought an orange bra.

Sometimes the answer never comes - there is no explaination for the shirt in the laundry that fits neither me or my husband. But I personally don't have a problem with that. If I do, i talk to my husband about the fact that i don't trust him, and I leave the clothing issue out of the conversation.

If you go about it accusingly, you'll either get denial or a fight -

    Bookmark   February 11, 2008 at 7:27PM
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Backtrack and give it good thought, I am sure there is an explanation for it.

Perhaps the amount of close you have prevents you from keeping track of them.

    Bookmark   February 11, 2008 at 7:34PM
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Please forgive me if I read more into your query than what you intended by your question. But I thought you might be wondering whether you should be suspicious about having some other woman's pants left at your home, and yours missing. So let's think carefully before even going down that route.

You said both your Levi's are gone, except one of them was replaced with some other brand of jeans. Well if I was a woman having an affair with your DH at your house, I don't think I would misplace any of my clothes when I undressed. And I certainly would not switch my pair of pants for his wife's jeans, that would make no sense.

I might have a possible scenario for the 'switched' pair of jeans. But since this happened over 4 years ago, you'll have to think back to anywhere you may have gone where other women were also in the premises and there may have been an opportunity for your clothes to get mixed. Try to recall if you were ever visiting somewhere, camping, at a chalet, shared hotel room or any type of overnight place where you brought your jeans. Perhaps there was a time when people were folding clothes from laundry machines, or packing clothes that were strewn on a bed, etc., and some other female accidentally gathered up your jeans instead of hers. There could very well be a woman somewhere wondering how she happened to bring home a pair of jeans that weren't hers. That could easily explain how you ended up with the wrong pair of jeans in your closet.

As for the 'missing' jeans, if I was having an affair with your husband, I would never consider stealing a pair of jeans from your bedroom, again, makes no sense. So whether the missing pair was accidentally thrown out, donated, left behind somewhere or whatever, there just isn't any motive for a mistress to go through your bedroom and take a pair of jeans, of all things. I think at this point I just wouldn't worry about it anymore, because the trail is probably too cold to find your jeans 4 years after the fact. Just chalk it up to a crazy mystery, but unless there is something else to support any suspicion, I wouldn't give it another thought.

    Bookmark   February 11, 2008 at 7:39PM
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do you have a daughter or a mother or a sister? It does happen in our family when things dissapear and then reappeared. On more than one ocassion my DD borrowed something from her gradnma but didn't tell me and I find something that looks like nobody's. Or sometimes I borrowed something from DD or from my mom and forgot about it and then was terrfied: where is it???? My SO's DD takes my clothes and leaves her clothes in my hamper etc. DD exchanged clothes with her GFs and then unknown pieces of women's clothing lay around MY house! When there is more than one woman confusion happens. Think about it. There are plenty of explanations.

    Bookmark   February 11, 2008 at 8:11PM
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I said I'd thrown everything out. Not too many clothes. I also said I loved them greatly, and knew what I had. I also said I never misplaced clothes since they were on my person, in the hamper or in the closet. No daughter, no sister and no shared vacations, outings, etc.

So what you're saying is, there is not a reasonable explanation. Or, is there?

Yes. I am accusing. And if someone was having affair with my husband, why would they care if they left clothes or took my new better jeans? They're over being ethical if they're helping him being unfaithful. If you're smart you don't leave/take jeans, but then again, you don't have affairs. If you're smart. Unless I'm missing something. Feel free to point out what I cannot see.

    Bookmark   February 11, 2008 at 8:29PM
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How long ago was it? If it just happened, then maybe try to have a conversation about trust with your DH. If it happened long time ago, it is pointless to dig up the issue again. Is your DH kind of guy who would cheat? In his own house?

    Bookmark   February 11, 2008 at 8:43PM
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Did you happen to take any clothes to Goodwill and somehow get those jeans mixed in with the other clothes? Another thought is did anyone at any time take some laundry to be done elsewhere? (maybe your washer & dryer were broke down for a short time?) Sometimes if we think *really hard* about something then it hits us as to what could have happened!

    Bookmark   February 11, 2008 at 10:14PM
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I agree with many of the posts to your initial question.

It is quite possible that a mix up occurred with these jeans that you do not remember. Maybe they were sent out to be dry cleaned and you wound up with somone else's pants?

Problem is, you don't remember.....

So, if you think that your DH might have had a "fling" then you can start to be alert to signs of such activity. Another women's pants winding up in your closet would lead me to conclude that she was at your house, somehow messed up her pants and used yours.

You may never know but you can start to be alert to the signs.

Good Luck.

    Bookmark   February 11, 2008 at 11:36PM
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I agree with many of the posts to your initial question.

It is quite possible that a mix up occurred with these jeans that you do not remember. Maybe they were sent out to be dry cleaned and you wound up with somone else's pants?

Problem is, you don't remember.....

So, if you think that your DH might have had a "fling" then you can start to be alert to signs of such activity. Another women's pants winding up in your closet would lead me to conclude that she was at your house, somehow messed up her pants and used yours.

You may never know but you can start to be alert to the signs.

Good Luck.

    Bookmark   February 11, 2008 at 11:38PM
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I think your missing jeans are where my missing favorite college sweater is? I have no idea.

Could you have been trying on jeans in a store and accidentally walked off with a pair that was not yours, leaving yours there? It really may not be that hard to do if your mind was elsewhere and you were trying on tops too, or you were drunk ;-) I don't know.

Maybe they were mixed in with some of your husband's clothes and maybe even given away at some point.

Gosh, if I'm reading you right, this happened like 4 years ago. I'd probably drop the affair thing especially if there haven't been any other signs. If that were the case, I'm sure hubby would have been smart enough to get your jeans back from his lover and throw (and find) them behind the dryer himself to make sure he left no tracks.

I'm guessing maybe you left them at a pool, in a gym bag, in a hotel. It's hard to go back and trace your steps after all this time. I would probably drop the matter and let it remain as one of life's little mysteries.

Heck, maybe your ass looked really bad in the jeans and your husband didn't have the heart to tell you so he just got rid of them and left you some cheap pair just for the fun of it? Hey, it could've happen... Do you recall any of your friends admiring your jeans... Any clepto type friends?

    Bookmark   February 11, 2008 at 11:59PM
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What else is telling you that your husband is having an affair?

It is highly unlikely that this situation alone is leading you to this conclusion. Either there are other signs, or you are coming to this with old wounds, or something.

Missing clothing and unexplained clothing does not logically mean an affair.

You are talking to the wrong people. You need to clarify this issue with your husband - it sounds to me like no matter what anyone says here, you are determined that this is fishy - in that case, there is nothing we can do for you. The only one who can lay this to rest is yourself, with the help of your husband.

    Bookmark   February 12, 2008 at 12:52AM
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This trying to beat me over the head with the same answers I've already given reasonable replies to is pointless. The point is, I do remember. I remember well enough to know what sizes and brands. I threw everyting out. So I had two pairs. No, I don't send my things out. Carla, if they were mixed in, how did I end up with a different pair? I mean come on, strange jeans don't just end up in a cleaned out organized, loved closet. It was a new way for me, and I was very cautious about what I was buying. You guys just don't listen. But basically, you're proving my point. All the reasonable answers come back as no. There was one other thing I caught him red-handed on. That was also years ago. We're working through the last little bit and I want him to own up to it, apologize for it and we can move on. I'm ready for it all to be clean. He says he is too. I hate the thought that a strange pair of jeans ended up in my meticulous closet is somehow my fault, even you're trying to pin in on me. I know I didn't do that. Or mix my clothes up. I'd just gone way overboard to make sure to have what I liked so I could feel good about my appearance. I can still tell you what brand jeans I have now and where I got them. The straight legs levis are now my putting up drywall and painting pants. I have a pair I got from Target that have a swirl on the pockets. I have another dark, tighter fitting pair I got from Target. That's it. I can even tell you every suit, dress and shirt I own, along with all the sweaters and where they came from. I have a fantastic memory and it just cannot be attributed to a lapse. Sorry, you're mistaken, but thanks for trying any way. In the absence of reasonable answers, I'll stick with, they weren't mine and didn't belong in my closet.

None of these answers explain how I ended up with a pair that didn't fit and I'd never seen. Especially since I've never sent my clothes out, can't afford to, and no one changes clothes in my house but me.

I appreciate the tries, but my mind is made up. Unless someone can think of something other than the answers above. Don't bother saying it again, I still won't agree.

    Bookmark   February 12, 2008 at 8:38AM
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I might lose a pair of jeans.

but another pair appearing in their place...

As for a smart (other) woman not getting them mixed up, maybe she liked your jeans better, or maybe she wanted to make trouble.

    Bookmark   February 12, 2008 at 8:52AM
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rob333, Why is it bothering you now, 4 1/2 years after it happened? Do you have any idea why now, and not 2 years ago or three? Has anything else happened which makes you feel that your husband may not be trustworthy? How does he rate as a husband? If he is a really good husband, let it go. And do not allow it to haunt you, or rob you of peace and joy. If he is untrustworthy, is he able to have the integrity to be honest and get the truth out so that it does not continue to fester in your heart?

    Bookmark   February 12, 2008 at 9:45AM
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I want him to own up to it, and apologize. Not treat me like I am too stupid to see what is right in front of me. It is a hurt that needs to be repaired. Make sense?

    Bookmark   February 12, 2008 at 10:28AM
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You need to talk to him about it then. If there has been another 'incident' then heck, hint to him that you have heard something and see what he says. If he is messing around, then that will surely make him start thinking and wondering about just how much you know!! Good luck!

    Bookmark   February 12, 2008 at 11:08AM
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The way you are talking to us is an indication of how difficult you are to live with.

There are many people here who have spent their own time, trying to ease your mind. If you are dead set on the idea that there is one possible option, then why in the world have you spent one second on this board? You should be filing for divorce and packing your (or not your) pants in a bag.

That's going to isspay you off, but I get pretty irritated by people who spit in the face of good people reaching out to help.

If unusual pants means unequivocally that your husband's banging some babe who is now walking around in your pants, then for gods sake do something about it and stop insulting the rest of us with your little hissy phit. Here's some advice - take a look at what an unpleasant person you are, and it might indicate what kind of life you've carved for your husband. If you feel out of control, then get in control of something you HAVE control over - yourself.

And look up Borderline Personality.

    Bookmark   February 12, 2008 at 11:37AM
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No, after 4 1/2 years it does not make sense that you are still worrying about this! Let it go already...

We can't help you because it's been too long, we don't know your lifestyle, and you have totally ruled out any kind of possible error on your part (which is really where the answer probably lies).

The possiblities really are endless.

You know what, hire a PI... they can probably even go back and find out if your husband was having an affair (through phone logs, receipts, etc) at that time. I highly doubt those jeans belong to a woman friend of his, but if you're not going to get peace unitl you find out for sure, then find out for sure. Harping on your husband (who is probably innocent) for the rest of your lives is not the right answer.

I find it odd that there has never been a woman in your house (at a party, a cleaning lady, a babysitter, etc) anyone that 'could' have changed jeans with yours without your knowing it.

I've never cheated, but I would suspect that married men often don't bring their lady friends back to their own houses.. Well, because then sheets may need to be changed, etc and with you sounding so organized, I doubt he would risk his friend moving a cup, or using a hand towel and you noticing it... Mainly, though, I don't think husbands bring back their ladies because neighbors see things. If you have neighbors that can and do see things, your husband would have been a fool to be bringing back a woman to your house and probably would have opted for a hotel. Just something to consider.

    Bookmark   February 12, 2008 at 11:40AM
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He and I have talked. What I wanted from you was any rational explanation or possibilites other than the ones I've discussed. I want an apology from him for an extreme break in trust. It doesn't make me difficult to leave with, it makes me a human being who deserves an explantion and apology. You're twisted, because you're not here to help understand or explain, only to point a finger. I don't need a holier-than-thou thought better kept to yourself. He has done another wrong, but I'm not saying it because he owned up. He has weakness in this area. The other was lesser one, just a slip off the slope, but this one would put him in the gutter.

I didn't do the wrong thing, nor am I wrong in wanting brutal honesty to repair the wrong. I deserve nothing less.

If you want to answer why I should give it up, well that's another story. Tell me why, other than time and the fact it cannot be explained? I'm considering it. But I know it hurts too much to ignore without real resolution. If it cannot be explained any other way than someone took my jeans (either on purpose or not) and left theirs, why shouldn't I be hurt. What a violation. No one is spitting, but I'm not thrilled with my justifications being poo-pooed. I've heard you say time and again, a woman knows. So why don't I know? Sounds like it hits close to home for you Amy, hope you resolve your hurt. I didn't come here to argue, just ask for an idea. But you've solidifed none really exist.

    Bookmark   February 12, 2008 at 12:05PM
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Okay Rob, let's have a conversation.

First of all, I'm glad that you talked with your husband. That is what really had to happen here. There is not a single scenario that we could have come up with (in fact, there were many that were offered) that you would have been okay with. You have got to see how you are coming across here! If you are not willing to examine yourself, you will not be able to create the "team" "partnership" "trust-filled" relationship you yearn for in your marriage. When you examine how you are experienced in a setting such as this one, you can see that this is a microcosm for your interactions in other relationships, primarily your marriage. It's information - and if used efficiently, you can effectively implement what feedback you get here and apply it to changes you'll need to make to make your relationship better than you ever imagined.

That said, I agree with you. Time will not put your troubled mind to rest. You DO need answers to your questions, and my guess is that if you are a stable, rational person, then your suspicions are rooted in things other than the pants. I asked you previously if there are other things contributing to your concerns, and it would be in your best interest to understand yourself and your intuitions well enough to identify what those feelings are and where they come from.

Your husband has 'confessed' something to you - what ever it is, and I mean no matter what, your relationship is repairable if you want it to be. Not by burying it - if what he did was hurtful to you, then you need to work together to repair it. Unfortunately, a large portion of trust repair depends on the hurt party's willingness to take on the challenge of trusting in faith. It's not easy but it's necessary.

This can come after the 'offender' has done his (or her) part to be transparent.

Sometimes a woman knows, but sometimes she just senses that things are amiss in the marriage, and women crave intimacy and closeness. When it's missing, she sometimes places her own meanings on things. So if that message doesn't apply to you, it certainly does apply to many out there who are reading this. Many a marriage has been broken over misunderstandings, and that's a shame.

You say that your justifications which you feel are being poo-poo'd. I would imagine that if you anticipate that your husband will deny the pants issue, that it probably stings to hear a myriad of responses here also denying your explanations. Understand though, that we don't do you any favors by jumping on the lynching wagon without more information. The information you provided us did not give us adequate proof to support your theory. That doesn't make us bad, or irrational- to the contrary. It would be highly irresponsible for us to do anything other than say, "slow down, your reasoning is faulty given the information we have."

I was alarmed that after 8 thoughtful, caring responses to your original post, that you would come back and be angry with us. It appeared ungrateful, to be honest.

You need answers, and yes, when we have suspicions in our relationships, or negative vibes, then if the relationship is important, those things should be addressed before they become overwhelming. I believe that if you approach this accusingly and defensively, then you have a much higher mountain to climb to resolve this. Rather, if you go about it with a desire to improve the relationship and open to the fact that you have faults of your own, then you are most likely to get the end result that you really REALLY want - to be loved, respected, and cherished.

    Bookmark   February 12, 2008 at 12:34PM
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It's the invalidation of my reasoning that upsets me. Friends don't do that. Yes, they are possible scenarios, but not in this instance. Trust that I know what I am talking about. It didn't feel really caring, it felt like my comments were being igorned.

That said, converse away. Much has been repaired. It's well above a "saveable" marriage, we enjoy each other and mostly respect each other (not perfectly, but who does). We've been married for about nine years and we just want to have greater intimacy. But the wedge keeps the inner sanctum from being reached, for both of us. His is to feel needed. I can do that. I'm working on it, daily. Mine is this slap in the face and his lack of listening. He is working on listening and doing better. If he keeps it up, we'll just have this one hurt there. If he did cheat, and it's over, it's over. I can take it. It represents the lack of trust on my part, his part, and so much more. That is, this is symbolic for our marriage, more than just "cheating" (if there is such a thing). I want HIM to say it, to my face, and trust that I can go forward, we can forward. The marriage is not over, even if he nevers own up. But it won't be what it can without his ownership.

    Bookmark   February 12, 2008 at 1:25PM
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But the obvious answer is usually the correct one, & a lot of those responses offered far-fetched explanations & implied that OP was in the wrong.

If I were a guest in OP's house, & I had some reason to take off my britches, I'm pretty sure I'd recognize them well enough to put my own back on rather than taking a pair of my hostess's jeans, & if I accidentally picked up her jeans, I'm pretty sure I'd recognize that they weren't the ones I had taken off.

As far as the time line goes, unresolved hurts & insults don't just go away, they often get worse, & the worse the betrayal, the worse the hurt & the longer it lingers.

rob, if you stay in this relationship, please make it a habit to get tested for STDs (sexually-transmitted diseases), including AIDS, every 6 months.

I wish you the best.

    Bookmark   February 12, 2008 at 1:29PM
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Don't have much to offer except these...from personal experience:

1) "Feminine intuition" can be a plague to rational relationships. I don't know where so many women get the idea that they "know" things but, in my experience with my own relationships, what they purport to "know" is very often wrong. However, it must be argued with as if it were divine revelation. I don't know where it comes from or where the power of its assertion came to be so assumed and accepted but it can be pure poison. IMHO, it's as useless and destructive as blind jealousy.

2) Again, from my own experience, I've learned that I, myself, am frequently wrong and my recollections are incomplete or inaccurate. Embarrassing at that moment when I realize I've had something completely mistaken. Forgot something -- some word, event, or circumstance that would have explained everything if I'd remembered it correctly. Accordingly, I've learned to temper my own feelings of "certainty" when an important decision is about to be based upon them.

If you're certain your own thoughts are clear and accurate, then you must act on them. For myself, I've learned to be cautious about important matters.

    Bookmark   February 12, 2008 at 1:32PM
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What is understandably hurtful is when your experience and feelings are not validated.

That makes perfect sense.

However, to say that someone disagreeing with your interpretation of a situation of which we only have been given a glimpse into is not an invalidation, it is rather an alternative point of view.

I'm not joking - just this morning I found a US Marine's t-shirt in the dryer. Based on your logic, my husband is probably gay and has a lover. Can you see how this can be illogical? Whereas, if I come to this forum and say, "I have been having feelings that my husband is up to something. I can't quite put my finger on it - but to complicate things I found a MARINES shirt in my laundry. This makes me even more suspicious. I know none of you have a crystal ball, and I know I need to talk to my husband - I just need some support here from you to help me understand my feelings and what i should do about them."

The difference between me and you is, Yes I found an unidentified object in the laundry, but I have no concerns outside of the laundry! So the laundry doesn't phase me. I can come up with 5 explanations right now that if they are good enough for me, why not for you....except for the fact that there is a lack of intimacy there for you which tells you there is more reason to worry than the average housewife who discovers unidentified clothing.

I agree, it is painful when you are experiencing feelings and no one is there to say, "what you are feeling under these circumstances is reasonable and understandable." Problem is, you didn't give us all the information. All we knew is that you had missing clothing. So what?

If you had told us you had other suspicions, and that your marriage isn't as intimate as you'd like it to be, then we have something with which to work with.

    Bookmark   February 12, 2008 at 2:11PM
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You know I have a pair of sweat socks that belong to no one in my family. Maybe my husband has a gay lover too... either that or his mistress has some big old stinky feet.

And, I'm not suggesting someone tried on the OP's jeans and didn't notice; I mean they stole the Levis jeans and left their generic pair there for her. You'd be surprise at the amount of people that steal things "just because". When I was a girl our maid stole a ring -well, that was for money. But, people take stuff; clothes aren't off limits. I'm pretty sure my lost college sweater was stolen by a ring of sorority girls who would steal sweaters and then trade and resell them in other sororities.

I think sometimes intuition means something, if it's based on facts and generally the woman isn't the condeming type. But, those women are also not usually the type to demand apologies when there's no proof. I think there's a big group of women that are insecure (maybe due to past relationships) and will read things into things that just aren't there. I think they create problems where there are none. Only you know if you are the type of woman that gets mad when your husband harmlessly jokes with a waitress. On the other hand, your husband could be the biggest cheating Casanova around... so do something about it. Mouth service will get you no where. Catch him cheating. Seriously, hire someone to let you know one way or the other. There really is no other answer for you.

I doubt your husband is going to admit to it one way or the other. He either did cheat and he won't admit, or he didn't do it and he won't admit. So, try a different route. Although at this point, I wouldn't rule out him admitting to it even if he didn't so it just so he wouldn't have to listen to you. You are only driving yourself, and I would guess, your husband crazy. It's been 4 and a half years... get some REAL proof or give up.

Not being able to figure out your jean dilema means nothing. It's not proof of anything. It 'could' be a hint at something, but it's NOT the smoking gun you think it is. Your thinking we can't figure out your jean problem so that must mean he's 100% guilty of an affair is ludicrous.

    Bookmark   February 12, 2008 at 3:24PM
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You really are daft if you think it's about laundry after all this discussion. You can't diagnose someone with BPD from one post or even one discussion (which I have a totally rational within reasonable boundary anger and I've been married for more towards a decade, he could've left or if I was BPD, I would've left by now). Not being able to figure out a reasonable answer, any one, other than the ones which have been completely explained away, is an indication. So much so, I never said it but here we ended up at cheating. I'm not saying 100%, but put with other factors... doesn't make me an idiot and I respectfully request you don't answer with any more name calling.

Now if you can unfocus on being right and having the last word of what you think of me... Answer my midway comment. I've moved on why haven't you?

"He either did cheat and he won't admit, or he didn't do it and he won't admit. So, try a different route". What is the different route?

    Bookmark   February 12, 2008 at 5:05PM
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I give up. You aren't interested in listening, only in standing firmly in your own point of view. You've been offered different routes here but you can't even see it. You come here asking for help and slap the hand of all who offer you a hand up. You still havent shared with us anything that would explain why you are insisting he's cheated other than your laundry, so what do you expect us to say?

I'll say it for you. You married an arse who cheated on you. Hang him, and don't EVER let anyone treat you badly. You deserve SO much more - if he doesn't admit it, call your lawyer immediately. Good god woman, you are so above all that.

Pants. Sheesh.

    Bookmark   February 12, 2008 at 5:41PM
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Well, I have to say that if one of my pairs of pants disappeared and a different pair came in their place, I'd be pretty suspicious, too. I can't think of anytime in 10+ years of marriage that something odd has appeared in MY laundry. It seems likely one of two things -- either the "other woman" accidentally swapped jeans, or she did it intentionally, in the hopes you'd figure things out, and leave your husband (so she could have him).

The only other possibility I can think of (and this is one that my husband offered) is that your husband did the laundry, and somehow accidentally destroyed it by washing it poorly (with bleach or something). Not having the heart to tell you that he had ruined your favorite pair of jeans, he tried to replace them without telling you, but because he's a typically useless male when it comes to clothes shopping, he buys the wrong kind. That's something my husband would do; don't know about yours.

Regardless, I agree with the other posters. The pants aren't proof of anything. All it does is give you some sort of suspicion. Either explicitly confront your husband about it, or get over the fact that you'll never know either way.

    Bookmark   February 12, 2008 at 6:39PM
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sorry, rob, I was posting at the same time as you were.

There's a difference between a guy taking off his tee shirt or socks & a woman taking off her trousers-
the guy was working on the car/lawnmower/whatever & got dirty, he got sweaty playing basketball, he stepped in a puddle & the socks were wet, etc.

Why would a woman (whom I have never met) take off her pants in my home?

& accusing someone of being "difficult to live with" & even going so far as to diagnose her as having a personality disorder because she stands up for herself is...odd.

    Bookmark   February 12, 2008 at 7:00PM
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rob333, you say you have a fantastic memory. Around the time that you noticed the jeans were missing, had you been out of town by yourself leaving your DH home alone? Do you possibly work nights so that he has the opportunity (if he wants) to bring someone home? As another poster said, it would seem like the owner of those jeans left them there on purpose so you would find them. If he has done something in the past than most likely he did bring someone to your home.

    Bookmark   February 12, 2008 at 9:17PM
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You're all right, I was out of line to bring up BPD - my immediate reaction was, here's someone who is asking for help, and then snapping at all of us because we are offering logical explanations to replace the illogical one - illogical only because she ONLY talked about the pants, not about other problems or suspicions.

I apologize, it was a jab, not a diagnosis.

    Bookmark   February 12, 2008 at 9:35PM
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I am curious, what exactly did your husband do it the past? I don't understand the reasoning of why you can't tell us the specifics just because he admitted to it. I think it may help enlighten things if we knew what the wrong doing was he admitted to.

Personally, if I wanted a wife to find out about me, I think I'd leave an earring or some panites, maybe call the house, or be sure some lipstick got on his collar...but trading jeans... I guess maybe if I was going after the 'drive the wife' crazy scenario, but I wouldn't necessarily think most wives would jump to the conclusion their husbands were cheating because of it. So, it really would serve no purpose. If she wanted you to find out about her, you'd probably know about her.

But again, please share the wrong doing you husband did admit to.

    Bookmark   February 12, 2008 at 11:36PM
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Everyone who posted has gone over all the possibilities as to how the jeans might have gone missing. Everything from being mislayed, thrown out, damaged in the wash, etc. The are all possible, logical and benign reasons.

Then, there are all the other not so nice reasons that all focus on the cheating angle. Let's be honest here, a person doesn't need a reason or excuse to cheat. Some people just do it when an enticing opportunity arises.

The OP might even have a practical joker or "enemy" in her midsts that she is not aware of. This person may seem a friend, family member, or even landlord who was looking to churn up some trouble for this couple.

Wondering if the OP has any problems with inlaws? Do you have a friend or neighbor who visits?

People can be spiteful. Someone might have done it on the sneak and then sat back waiting to see the outcome.

If there was a cheating incident, my guess is that the cheater is not going to admit to it. Especially considering how very upset the OP is.

So, there is no 100 % full proof way to determine how the loss occurred.

All the OP can do is watch for the signs of cheating now and in the future.

Unfortunately, OP has tipped off the DH of her suspicions. I would suggest that if you really want to know for sure, then back off and let things cool down for a while. You can then pick up on DH's behavior once he feels comfortable.

I hope that this has all just been a mix-up and everything calms down for you.

Best of Luck.

    Bookmark   February 13, 2008 at 1:15AM
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Mary, he was working odd jobs and some were at night or at places where he truly could only be reached if he answered his phone (in a scary part of town with which I'm not familiar). Loads of opportunity. It struck me at the time how much time he was away and how much he could do with it (after I found the jeans).

Amy, thanks for saying that. It means a lot.

Carla, I didn't say what else had happened before since it's such an odd situation. Nonetheless, I wanted to try to present it as objectively as I could. Although, in reality, I probably can never do it. I gave it loads of thought and came up with the same questions you all are posing, did someone change in my bedroom? Did I really throw everything away?... and I just could account for all the good "outs" he had. The one I could never account for was that "oops" factor. And two people here posted exactly what I cannot account for, without my leading them; a person did it accidentally or a person did it on purpose. It just cannot happen another way, if I am right in my recollections. He did have an oops before when he contacted a group by email, posting he was interested in others. It was at a turning point in our marriage. He'd decided he was leaving, but hadn't left. That was his one gimme. No more.

tenderchici, wow, I hadn't thought of someone trying to make me mad, hurt me, etc., but I guess it could be possible.

I guess I was A) looking for some validation (Thanks Sylvia, rivkadr and tenderchichi for acknowledging it is plausible), but importantly, B) find a sounding board before I talked to him again. And I will. I have to frame what I am going to say in a reasonable way. You've helped me do that. At least we've heard three ideas that make his side a little more palatable; 1) threw them out 'cause he hated my ass in them; 2) he spilled bleach on them; and 3) a saboteur. Honestly, shooting holes in the 100% air-tight is probably enough to find forgiveness. Thanks!

    Bookmark   February 13, 2008 at 8:41AM
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The only thing I can add to this is that I understand your desire for a confession if he is guilty of something. Best of luck.


    Bookmark   February 13, 2008 at 10:40AM
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Again, my apologies - I was really on one yesterday, and I know exactly why my buttons were pushed over this thread - I have a hard time for a specific reason with people who ask for help and then get angry over what is offered. That's my issue and I should have kept it in check - again, sorry.

Bottom line, now I understand that you had other things nagging away at you, which would certainly lead to you wanting answers. Forgiveness is a very very difficult thing to do, when the other party isn't participating in the process, so it's hard to just get over something like that, especially when there's that looming question.

Forgiveness is possible for just about anything, however, when both parties are willing to work with a "program" to build trust. I worry that you say that if he confesses to an affair, it's over -

Problem is, if he confesses, and you toss him, then you have a wound that is seeping into any other relationship you enter. However, if that threat is there to leave, chances are he'll never confess and there you have the chore of "forgiveness" in order to live side by side- a tall order when you're going about it by yourself without his participation.

There is still the possibility that this is a non issue - in which case your husband has an opportunity to help you get through this by working on trust issues with you. If he has nothing to hide, he may be annoyed by your doubts but would most likely still want to increase intimacy by working with you on this to help you lay your fears to rest.

In any case, I do hope you find peace. I understand better now.

Ps you might consider that if he confesses something painful, that you go through the process of forgiveness and closure before you leave. Then you don't have baggage to carry on to the next relationship. It would be the best gift you could give yourself.

    Bookmark   February 13, 2008 at 12:47PM
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why did you wait so long to address this issue? Why not then, 4 years ago?

    Bookmark   February 14, 2008 at 11:17PM
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I did address it years ago. And then tried to move on. Normally I can, but this one is just too wrong. It has festered and needs real honest closure.

    Bookmark   February 15, 2008 at 8:41AM
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So what that it is 4 years later. The pain of what could be infidelity does not have an expiration date. Especially if he is calling the sky green when in your heart you know it is blue. It sounds like the relationship would have a better chance if he was honest. That is of course if he cheated. But lets be honest here. When a women in her heart feel something is not right, then something usually is NOT right. I once heard that it is hard for a woman to find closure when the man never admits fault. That is so true. It really makes you question everything he says to you. It can even make you live you life constantly watching his life. Trying to make sure he is not cheating. Who wants to live that way? You deserve better! You need to find closure in this matter. Do you have children? If so then i would really reccommend trying to work this out. Maybe if he was honest you could move past this with him. But i dont blame you if you wanted to leave. You really have some soul searching to do.

    Bookmark   February 15, 2008 at 9:08AM
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But what is the answer if he really is being honest and has not cheated?

    Bookmark   February 15, 2008 at 12:55PM
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I guess if I found a pair of pants replacing some I knew I had I would also think my husband was guilty.

I would think he ruined my pants in the wash and tried to get a cheap imitation to hide his mistake and would hope I'd never find out.

I would trust my husband with my life but not my pants.

Good luck to you.

    Bookmark   February 15, 2008 at 1:04PM
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BVE, he's ruined things before and owned up. I don't get that mad about a pair of pants, shirt, insert item here. If he had ruined pants, he would've volunteered that immediately.

Carla, I said I would forgive him. "Honestly, shooting holes in the 100% air-tight is probably enough to find forgiveness." But I think ninos says it well "It sounds like the relationship would have a better chance if he was honest...Maybe if he was honest you could move past this with him." With him. And I want to. I'm a big girl, I can handle knowing, but he's can't admit to being wrong. I'll also reiterate what I said earlier: "The marriage is not over, even if he nevers own up. But it won't be what it can without his ownership". I'm not going anywhere, but neither is our marriage. I'd like to go farther. So would he. It may be painful, but how resolve this hard issue, will show our true mettle.

    Bookmark   February 15, 2008 at 2:31PM
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i think it doesn't matter now if he cheated or not. you lost your trust in him and it doesn't matter if he cheated this time or not. trust is lost. you will always suspect something, more so if you stay and suffer and then leave you would not trust other people in the future.

i hate sounding that pessimistic. but if you are pretty sure he cheated, i don't know why would you want to stay. he would just be more careful next time. sorry i don't mean to upset you but maybe you should move on. i mean if he was stupid enough to bring her home, why would you want to stay..

    Bookmark   February 15, 2008 at 2:49PM
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I was in court when three young teen aged girls were sentenced for breaking in to homes and stealing minor items. They got started because they were selling raffle tickets for school, and realized that not all homes are well secured during the day. They primarily drank liquor they found, and enjoyed wandering around homes. They were caught because they left behind a school i.d. card in the pocket of clothing, they ran out because somebody came home early. Their thefts included clothing, money, jewelry and whatever they could put in back packs. They claimed they didn't take much because their parents would have noticed stuff, so they never took laptops or electronics. They took game cartridges though. Apparently they got away with this for a long time.
Juvenile proceedings are not open hearings. I was representing a homeowner who wanted restitution. When she reported her losses the police sort of suggested she might have simply misplaced things. Her locks were intact but she had a doggy door for her shepherd. She made her report right away because she had laid clothing out for an evening event and knew a Feragamo purse was missing, and then looked around for other missing items and found a piece of her clothing with the I.d. card in the pocket.
On an unconnected robbery at our home, my husband came home early and found a young kid in our yard. He claimed to be with the gardeners, but started running. We discovered somebody had climbed in through the window and probably heard my husband coming home. My daughter lost gold charms that were on her dresser, and some of my jewelry was taken. If my husband had not seen him, I don't know that we would have realized we were robbed.
I believe thats what the girls discovered that they could take a small amount of stuff and get away with it, and drink beer etc. at the same time.
Just ocurred to me, when I read your post--can you imagine what the result of losing just a few things in a house can produce? My client was angry because of how she was treated--sort of like she was losing her mind. She lives alone except for the dog and her house is immaculate, so she was positive but in a household with kids, etc. its anybody's guess what happens to stuff.
The Public Defender I talked to said this kind of petty theft is more common than people realize, and often burglars will take food out of the refrigerator and fix a snack.

    Bookmark   February 15, 2008 at 2:53PM
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I don't often frequent this forum, but today I'm layin' low with the "crud"...

Let me understand...
Sometime ago...months? years? Less that 4 1/2 years but more than a week? You found a pair of Mystry Pants in your closet and discovered that 2 pair of pants you thought were in there were missing.
Immediatly you KNEW your husband had a girlfriend in your house who stole your 2 pair of Levi's ( not even Ralph Lauren, or DKNY...just plain old Levi's!) and left something else in their place. I mean it makes perfect sense, doesn't it? He has his slut at your house in YOUR bed...AND she steals 2 pair of your Levi jeans and leaves another sort of jean, but only one pair, in their place....and thinks you will never notice!
But you DO notice, because you know every thread of clothing you own, and immediatly KNOW it has to do with your DH being sexually unfaithful to you.
So you confront him....tell him you KNOW he has been messing around and want him to apologize.
He denies everything, but you insist because you are missing 2 pair of jeans and the only possible way that could happen is if he has been unfaithful to you again DEMAND he confess and he refuses and you demand again and he refuses.
And that behaviour of yours is such a recipe for a happy marriage that your relationship has become stronger and more trusting the more you demand an apologie. Is that the way it is?
Trust begets trust.
If I could fathom any possible scenario where 2 pair of missing jeans and a found pair could indicate that your husband were cheating, I would feel more inclined to be sympathetic, but I cant' see that your missing jeans can in any way be blamed on your husband.....unless he purposley took your jeans and substituted another pair just to drive you crazy. It's been done before, you know, and several good books have been written about one spouse making the other believe they are seeing things and having them committed.
So....either file for divorce based on the fact that you are missing 2 pair of jeans and that means your husband has a girl friend, or forget about it and admit that perhaps you could have had a mamory lapse.
The path you are following now leads nowhere. You can continue to follow it, but you will find it returns you right where you were before.
Have you sought counceling? or seen a psychiatrist?
The problem lies with you....your husband may be a dirty rotton scoundrel, but you are doing nothing to extricate yourself from the situation...or he may be just a slightly disturbed guy who simply needs a loving wife to re affirm his own self worth.
Remember, you have no contol over other's actions, but you DO have control to how you feel about those actions.
Linda C

    Bookmark   February 15, 2008 at 3:09PM
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Here was my last question to you....
"But what is the answer if he really is being honest and has not cheated?"

Your answer to me was...
"Carla, I said I would forgive him."

You did not answer my question, so let me rephrase my question...
"WHAT IF THERE IS NOTHING TO FORGIVE?" (What if your husband didn't cheat on you and you only think he did?)

It sounds like you won't be satisfied unless your husband admits to cheating even if he didn't cheat... Right? He's in a no win situation with you even if he did nothing wrong.

    Bookmark   February 15, 2008 at 3:37PM
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Linda, what can I say but wow. Every marriage has some stupid mistake in it somewhere. That doesn't mean it's divorce time. Or he's a low life, or I'm unloving. How demeaning. So how have we overcome all other obstacles (the horrible economy, jobs, kids, family crises, etc.)? And it sure doesn't mean anyone needs psychiatric help. Calm down and get real. (NOT EVEN DKNY?) WTF?! What does that have to do with anything? That's some real issue you have going on there. The irony of you shouting at me to control myself. Shouting. HA! That's too funny. Surely you can see how strange you sound. Surely?

What if there is nothing to forgive? He doesn't have to admit it, but he shouldn't keep ignoring that it bothers me and I want it resolved. He doesn't have to admit anything except that I have an issue we need to discuss in a reasonable way. But you're not going to stop until you've made your point that he's innocent. Ok. He's completley totally utterly 100% innocent. You win.

    Bookmark   February 15, 2008 at 4:41PM
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so what excatly does he say when you ask him? does he say I didn't do it or he avoids the conversation all together? would you consider going to therrapy together and see if you can discuss this with the thrid party there?

    Bookmark   February 15, 2008 at 5:43PM
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Actually, that's what started the whole deal. We decided to make our marriage over and above because we've gotten along so well lately, that we decided to fix the last little nagging things with a third party. We're in therapy.

What does he say? He has a sheepish looking away glance and shrinkng shoulders as though he's very guilty. He says I don't know, but then can't look me in the eye. It's bad body language.

    Bookmark   February 15, 2008 at 6:27PM
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Oh, fine. Now we're down to "body language". What's next? Tarot cards?

    Bookmark   February 15, 2008 at 6:56PM
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BF and I sometimes roll our eyes when either one of us shows signs of unreasonable jealousy. How about that body language.

On the other hand my X just left his second wife and he cheated on her for a very long time with his friend's wife under his own roof and TOW was invited to the house and now he moved in with her etc. And his second wife had no clue, she was crushed. Maybe she wished she found wrong pair of jeans along the way so she could at least be prepared for a blow. and there was no body langauge issue because he showed no signs of anything, in fact according to her marriage went smoothly, no fights, and it turns out he is in love with someone else. DD was in schock that seemingly nice marriage of dad and SM turned out to be fake.

So it is possible you have a suspicion but he did nothing wrong and somebody else has no suspicions and yet Dh cheated. Who knows when gut feeling tells you the truth...

    Bookmark   February 15, 2008 at 8:35PM
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Body laguage is hard to interpret, but why not ask your counselor what they think when your husband is not around? If it was that obvious, I would think they would have picked up on it too.

Really, though, and I've mentioned this twice so maybe the third times a charm, but why not hire a detective? I don't know for sure, but I would think that they could probably easily and cheaply get some info for you from around that time period in question. Phone records, credit card receipts, etc. If you weren't acting suspicious then, I doubt he covered all his tracks. I would think if you're not hiring them for an actual stake out, the cost would be very minimal. May be better than forking out money for counseling.

If I ever had a real hunch my husband was cheating on me, but couldn't find proof, I would hire a PI in a second. It really could answer your questions and settle everything once and for all. You have a hunch, you can't seem to let it drop, your husband is admitting nothing, so find proof. If it's out there, I bet a good PI would be able to find it for you. They may even have some ideas on your jean dilemma or tell you if they think it is indeed a tactic a mistress may use.

    Bookmark   February 15, 2008 at 10:33PM
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But....even if she does hire a PI and even if they find nothing, she still won't believe....because she is sure that a girlfriend of her husbands stole her Levi's jeans and won't let it go until her husband confesses, whether he did anything or not.
But...suppose he does confess? Suppose he admits in a councelling session that he did commit adultry....then what?
Will you forgive and let it go? Or will you demand your pound of flesh from him and ever after remind him of "what he did" when you trusted him?
I don't see a happy ending here. You are convinced that he cheated....and you won't be satisfied until he confesses to having cheated with another woman.
Let it go...consider the missing Levi's as one of the mysteries of the universe....or tell DH you can't live with a cheater and file.
Linda C

    Bookmark   February 15, 2008 at 10:59PM
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I totally agree with you, linda. I would just like to hear what the OP's response is. If she were truly after the "truth", a PI would be the route to go, but I don't think that is what she is after, so I doubt she'll go that route. It would be too logical, and may actually answer her questions once and for all.

I think she wants to be the victim and will be one no matter what the cost and/or the truth. She will not let it go nor will she leave him, because then she can't be the victim and can't continue to blame her husband. Some people thrive on chaos and will go as far as to create it themselves if they have to.

    Bookmark   February 16, 2008 at 1:10AM
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Just a side note. If they *could* have been on the dining room table for four years there might be more problems than just the jeans.

    Bookmark   February 16, 2008 at 6:10AM
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haha no she found out jeans are missing 4 years ago, she just had problem letting it go because she never got anything from your DH in regards to where jeans came from. Jeans on a dining room table for 4 years would be entirelly different problem... lol

    Bookmark   February 16, 2008 at 7:55AM
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...suppose he does confess? Suppose he admits in a councelling session that he did commit adultry....then what? Will you forgive and let it go?


    Bookmark   February 16, 2008 at 11:11AM
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So...if he hasn't cheated....the only way he can save his marriage is by lying?
I am reminded of the Jews who were converted en masse during the Spanish inquisition but who were secretly celebrating the Jewish Holidays.
He may "confess" to save his marriage or his skin, but by forcing a confession, how will you know he is really telling the truth or just saying what you want to hear?
He has denied in the past any wrong doing....but you are SURE because you are missing 2 pair of Levi's jeans. Why will you believe him if he confesses? because he will be saying what you want to hear?
And....when you do figure it sure to check back here and tell us how the missing jeans indicate he has committed adultry. and what really happened to your jeans and where that other pair came from.

    Bookmark   February 16, 2008 at 11:51AM
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I personally don't believe in spending money on a PI. If you have to dig that low to "resolve" an issue, then all you have is two options - they find nothing and you STILL don't trust, or they find something and you then have to leave. Very hard to come back and find love again after a third party has been hired.

Sorry to beat a dead horse but there is the most fabulous book on forgiveness. It talks about three options: Forgiving as a partnership, forgiving when the other doesn't participate (acceptance) and then choosing not to forgive.

It goes into great detail with regards to how often we forgive 'cheaply' -so that we can move on peacefully in our lives...but how that option takes away from the option of more intimacy.

What we're talking about here is The Possibility. I think what I hear several people saying is, WHAT IF there is no offense? That has to be a possibility. the OP's feelings are not fact. It would be such a shame that 4 years (and honestly the rest of the future) have been wasted with doubt and mistrust if the guy is innocent. IF that is the case, then the OP has some serious issues to look at.

Now, if all of this STUFF is based solely on the fact that pants are missing and replaced, then I would start looking at the OP's cognitive rationalle.

However, if there are other things at play, which we still don't know about, then I can tell you from experience that I do believe in intuition - it's almost scary what the subconscious can pick up. I also know that sometimes it takes 4 years for the mind to set itself in a position to be able to handle the truth - perhaps if there is an indescretion, the OP has not been emotionally ready to handle the truth and now her subconscious is saying, OK we're ready. We can handle this now.

I highly HIGHLY recommend the book How Can I Forgive You - you'd think I get commissions considering how often I mention it but i'll be danged if this isn't such a new concept and perfectly presented in such a way that forgiveness can be a solid concept rather than this etherial sort of hard to grasp concept espoused by the christian community.

    Bookmark   February 16, 2008 at 12:02PM
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Amy, You've hit the nail on the head. Forgiveness comes in so many forms and so many ways. I can tell when he is being truthful after all these years. How do I know? When whichever side came to light after the fact, even if years later, or even if other matters. I know him. Forgiving as a paterneship is what I am after. How are we going to solve this together? is what I lay at his feet. His whole attitude about it has been odd from every aspect. Fishy in every way. He doesn't do this with other things, so why now?

L, Skip telling me I am incapable of forgiveness or that I would be dumb enough to swallow a lie. I have a better relationship with my husband that that. Maybe you're incapable of forgiveness, so you think everyone is? And it's one pair that was replaced. Get it right since you keep insisting you know what you're saying. One might benefit from all your experience if you just had help in mind. Leave the scathing sarcasm off if you want me to hear. Or maybe it's not what you're after?

    Bookmark   February 16, 2008 at 12:57PM
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Okay rob, so here's what you might need to do to get what you're after (which is,it sounds like,: a process of healing and a move towards greater intimacy for both you and your husband).

Let's go at this under the assumption that he's done something. (Acknowledging the fact that perhaps he hasn't, but for the sake of argument let's honor the instinct for a moment - )

What might be getting in the way of him talking to you? Let's eliminate the terms which might come across to him as threatening and as punishing (you may feel as if he deserves punishment but keep in mind your ultimate goal. This isn't about punishing, it's about problem solving.) So the word "confession" is a bit punitive - puts you in a position above him. Like it or not, you'll need to be on equal ground to get him to feel comfortable opening up.

So how about instead of "demanding a confession" (not your words, mine), how about approaching this in terms of "facilitating conversation" or "encouraging transparency". When you set the stage for him to feel safe to open up, you're going to more likely get what you need. Your attitude as well as your words and actions will determine much of what is said and what is not said by him. No one wants to be treated like a child, and often times when they are treated as such, they tend to act more like children. I presume you don't want to be the parent, either - you want to be equals.

Keep in mind that four years of repression on this topic is going to affect you in a way that this seems a lot bigger, and more offensive, and horrific, and makes him look smaller, and much more pathetic than actuality warrants. You'll need to set attacking and anger aside (I know, easier said than done) in order to create an environment conducive to truth -

Perhaps your counselor can help you get there. Again, this goes back to originally me saying that this problem also is impacted by your actions and reactions - the good news is that you have 100% control over yourself. What seems like a positively natural reaction may not be the best course of action -

When we can learn how to keep our feelings in check and act intentionally rather than reactively, we are most likely to have the results we want in life. Sure, if you were to find out that he's cheated, you'll find 90% of folks out there supportive of you doing things that you "FEEL" like doing or saying - but that is not necessarily going to get the results you want. Just be smart about it - sounds like you have a keeper, from your point of view - you just want intimacy on top of it. It's attainable - I can promise you that, as long as he cooperates, and as long as you make it safe for him to do so. (and you don't have to compromise who you are in order to make it safe - Talk to your counselor about that -)

Maybe part of what might help you get to a more gentle place would be to recognize that you might actually have contributed to some of the lack of intimacy in the marriage as well (gulp - that might hurt, be prepared) - it's easier to go about solving problems in the marriage when we recognize that we aren't perfect and aren't "above" the other person - instead, we're both struggling to make this work and to discover and learn etc -

Good luck

    Bookmark   February 16, 2008 at 3:22PM
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amy, if you were truly haunted by "intuition" (whatever the heck you think that is) that your husband was having an affair but he wouldn't admit to it and it was tearing apart your thoughts and your relationship and a resolution was no where in sight, then why not hire a pi? Living in a constant condemning relationship where there is no trust for whatever the reason is better, why? Because you don't want to have to dig "so low" is an excuse to not be open to finding the truth? Plus, if he is a big dog, he may still be cheating and they can probably very easily tell her that too. Why focus only on one affair along time ago? Once a cheater always a cheater, right? IF her intuition is right, there's probably a lot of stuff she's not aware of to even know to ask about.

Come on, if you're accusing your husband of having an affair and he won't admit to, you need to either drop it or prove it, and not sit in a condemning lala land for your whole life (Do you have any idea how hard that is to be in a relationship like that for both the parties involved?). You hire a lawyer for a legal problem, call the police for a physical fight, but you can't hire a pi to do some background work for you? I think you watch too much tv about how low pi's are. Can you check your husband's call history on his cell phone, or is that too low too? If he was/is cheating the pi's will find something. A rational person would accept the fact that if they didn't find something that he's probably not cheating and maybe their intuition isn't all that. It can provide some type of closure; which is what the OP needs to go on one way or the other.

And, if they found out he was cheating, what makes you think you would HAVE to leave the marriage? Just because a third party is involved you HAVE to leave? I've never heard that before, where does that concept come from? Forcing your husband to apologize or tying him to a tree and beating the truth out of him, creates for a better future relationship than finding out the truth from a pi, why? If he tells her the truth (that he cheated) at this point, I wouldn't even count that as a being honest on his part. After this much time and badgering, it's probably more of a "can't handle this mental abuse" more than a "coming clean and being honest" thing on his part.

You think because the OP asks her husband in a nicer way about his affair, that he will admit to it? Yeah, maybe on his death bed... you can't back pedal once you've demanded an apology from your husband for cheating.

Oh, wait, did I say " Tell me the truth you SOB or I'll chop off your ... you cheating good for nothing...." what I meant to say was.. "You big kind old teddy bear, you, who have you been snuggling up against, sugar love, you know I'll love you no matter what". You seriously think her husband will feel safe to come and tell her? Really, in which decade? If he hasn't told her in 4 years, he's not going to. And, quite honestly even though morally the nice way should be the way to go; if she wants the truth in a timely manner, harassment probably works a lot better.

And, nice assumption, but what if the true answer is her husband has done nothing? I would think in this specific scenario, you should have a solution or a plan that would encompass either option being true. What does the OP do when her husband doesn't admit, no matter how nice and loving she is to him, how much blames she accepts herself and how many decades have passed? What if he didn't cheat?

    Bookmark   February 16, 2008 at 4:28PM
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Intuition is the perceptive part of our brain telling us stuff that the logical part doesn't get, & body language is one of the big things that police & secret service agents study & watch.

We can lie verbally but it's much harder for us to control our gestures & expressions.

The perceptive brain has been around a lot longer than the logical brain, & it knows what it's doing;
it's the brain that kept our species alive long enough for the logical brain to develop.

Many years ago I read "The Gift of Fear", a wonderful book by a security consultant, about using the perceptive brain to keep us safe.

In a nutshell, the message was, if you are suddenly seized by the compulsion to flee...flee.

Fear is the perceptive brain's response to some danger that our logical brain hasn't processed yet.

If you "feel in your gut" or "have the sense that" or have an "intuition" about something, it's likely your perceptive brain telling you what your logical brain hasn't processed or doesn't want to admit.

    Bookmark   February 16, 2008 at 5:00PM
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Whoa carla, the way you're talking to me is coming off pretty sarcastic and rude- no need for all that.

Did I say something that hurt you personally? That was not my intent. Maybe you're bothered by the fact that my post was based on the assumption that Rob's fears are founded - remember, I did point out that there is the possibility that they are not. However, Rob's firm stance is that something is amiss, and my attempts to dissuade her fell on deaf ears - so the next best thing is to assume that there is more to the story than we know, and that perhaps we should address things from her point of view to make progress.

I said I personally would not hire a PI - the "answers" are not the foundation or root of the problem. The PI will only fail to support Rob's position, or he will sustain it, and we are still left with mistrust and major issues to deal with.

I understand that this is an elevated concept, and the more base part of us wants to demand justice and evidence. It doesn't, however, address issues of intimacy, forgiveness, trust, etc - hire a PI if that makes you feel better but you're still left with the reality that you don't trust, and lack intimacy in the marriage.

I found your reference to "...teddy bear..." insulting and without consideration to the intention of the suggestion. I'm not spouting off information without basis, experience, and broad understanding, and for you to twist things and try to dumb it down to such a level is unnecessary. There is a lot of wisdom in the things I had to share, if only because I personally have experienced such things myself.

And Sylvia is right about what intuition is. Intuition is made up by the finest nuances and by things the subconscious makes us aware of. Human beings are complex, more so that you realize. To say that finding pants in the closet is reasonable to deduct an affair is ludicrous. To find pants and which trigger other subconscious awarenesses is certainly reasonable.

The info given in the original first post is clearly not enough for a reasonable human being to jump to the conclusion of an affair. However, the OP has since indicated that there are other things which are pointing in that direction, things which she has and hasn't shared here.

Again, from personal and very profound experiences I do understand and believe in intuition, and I stand by the things I have said here and in my previous post.

    Bookmark   February 16, 2008 at 5:24PM
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which is,it sounds like,: a process of healing and a move towards greater intimacy for both you and your husband)yes, yes, yes!!! You got it. Now for the hard part... as long as he cooperates, and as long as you make it safe for him to do so. (and you don't have to compromise who you are in order to make it safe - Talk to your counselor about that -) I think this is where my difficulty lies. Although, the good news is, Maybe part of what might help you get to a more gentle place would be to recognize that you might actually have contributed to some of the lack of intimacy in the marriage as well (gulp - that might hurt, be prepared) - it's easier to go about solving problems in the marriage when we recognize that we aren't perfect and aren't "above" the other person - instead, we're both struggling to make this work and to discover and learn etc - I've visited here and continue to do work.

Now that's some real help. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

    Bookmark   February 16, 2008 at 8:04PM
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You wrote that none of the rational explanations make sense because you have a great memory (didn't leave the jeans somewhere, etc.). However, the "affair" explanation doesn't make sense either. Let's say (hypothetically, of course) that I am having an affair with a married man in his house. I am snooping around his wife's closet and see jeans that look like they would fit me pretty close. Now, I WANT her to be suspicious (so maybe they will break up and I will get him) so I wear home her jeans and leave mine. Ok, I can see this happening. Cheaters do some pretty sleazy things. But you have TWO pairs of missing jeans. That doesn't make sense. Is the mistress also a kleptomaniac? She wears one pair and just steals the other?

This doesn't make sense to me.

    Bookmark   February 17, 2008 at 12:00AM
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"One day, I went to put on my straight cut Levi jeans, but they didn't feel right. They weren't Levi's. Then I went to look for my boot cut Levi's. Not in the closet (I even unhung everything and looked in the bottom of the closet, nope, not there). Then under the bed, then the dining room table. They were no where to be seen. Nowhere. So there I was with jeans that weren't Levi's and my most loved pair gone"... "The straight legs levis are now my putting up drywall and painting pants". Boot cut leg gone, straight leg stayed. Put on by mistake, taken, who cares why.

Ignoring that part, how do I end up with a pair I've never seen or would've bought. How bout offering up rationale for that part?

    Bookmark   February 17, 2008 at 11:50AM
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I think you understood more about what was going on earlier in your postings. I totally understand your counseling concepts, but I do not think they would ever work in the case with this particular poster for a couple reasons. As I'm sure you may know, people have to be open to things in counseling, and IMHO she's way too close minded for any of your ideas to come close to working.

I also know what intuition is, but after hearing this poster's reasoning for things, I do not believe her thoughts are logical woman's intuition in the least bit. I believe they are rantings.

amy, I'm sorry if I came across so rude to you, but it scared me because usually your opinions are somewhat sound and it just seemed to me like you were beggining to sound like the poster (even she said you hit the nail on the head!), which sort of scared me.

Of course intimacy and trust are lacking in this person's marriage, but I'm not so sure it is a marriage problem that can be solved by marriage counseling. It seems to me that it may be more of a personal issue, and trying to solve it with marriage counseling will usually only compound the problem if the poster's real problems are not addressed. So, I don't disagree with your advice for many people with marriage problems, I just don't agree with it for this particular poster. I think you figured out early on what was really going on here.

    Bookmark   February 17, 2008 at 2:04PM
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Carla, the only person being closed minded is you. As far as I can tell your only objective is to be right. Maybe you are. Maybe you aren't, but you're determined for me to say nothing happened. So what if nothing did. I can stay at a stalemate in my corner, or try figure my way out. At least Amy is trying to understand. You're just finger pointing. I don't care to hear what you're saying, even if it is right because you're so darned determined to shove it down my throat (isn't this what you're accusing me of doing? why is it ok for you?). You've said you piece, I get it. You think he's 100% right based on??? you don't like me? At least that's what I'm getting out of your posts. You are being illogical. Convince me a different way or over something else, because I can be convinced when it's reasonable. You're not here in his midst, you don't see him, his reactions, hear his comments, etc. What exactly are you basing it on? Take me at my word, or maybe you can't, but you are not helping.

    Bookmark   February 17, 2008 at 3:44PM
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Ok...assuming that the strange jeans and the fact that yours are missing is a definite sign that your husband has been unfaithfull to you....
How could that have happened?
You said that he worked in a strange and rough area of town and worked odd hours and late at night. Presuming you and your son where at home while he was working.
In other posts on other forums, you said you were a stay at home mom until your son was over 3...when you sent him to a sitter. You said on another forum that you couldn't afford a preschool for your son. I'm not sure just when the pants switch happened, but if it was while you were a stay at home, that had to be difficult.
During the time before you moved into your house, did you never ever leave LF with a sitter? Never??
Previous to your "discovery" did you notice that your husband had any change in demeanor? Were there any changes of a sexual nature?
And about how long could it have been between the "event" and the time you noticed the switched jeans? Did you wear them once a week? 3 times? Every evening while relaxing?
And in the past when you have confronted your husband with the issue of the jean switch, what does he say? Does he get angry? Does he tell you you are imagining such things?...and what was his attitude the first time you confronted him. And when you confronted him the first time what did you say?
I am really having a problem figuring out just how someone could have pulled the switcheroo and when without you or your son noticing.

    Bookmark   February 17, 2008 at 4:02PM
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0-3 LF stayed either with me or Ed.
3-5 he went to preschool (a great one! Loved it)
5-8 he's been in K-2 grade

4 years ago is preschool. Ed was alone quite a bit in this down period of his life/our lives. It was a bad time all the way around. LF has always stayed with family since Ed and I have 10 brothers and sisters between us (not counting spouses), 2 grandmothers, all of which live within an hour and half. No sitter. That would've been a good idea, but I could account for that one. Loads of changes in both of us in demeanor about loads of things. I wore them alternating with the other jeans, only on weekends. I pour my money into my good work clothes since I work at an ivy league school, never able to wear jeans at any other point. He's not angry, he's just plain fishy about it. I wish I could find a better word! But fishy is closest. Not like with other problems. I so wish there was a clear cut sign. But forgiveness on both our parts is all that can fix it. PHOOEY!

    Bookmark   February 17, 2008 at 6:31PM
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I thought I'd made it clear that the pants switcheroo does not, in my mind, indicate a 'definite sign' or even (if isolated) a mild sign of infidelity.

Just wanted to set the record straight.

It's all the stuff that goes with it that has Rob concerned. Pants is just a trigger telling Rob that something in the marriage is amiss. It may or may not be an affair, but at any rate the anxiety caused by the pants is enough to get her to say, "i haven't trusted you for 4 years. Why is that?"

Yes, i believe that if Rob can go about this humbly and with less emotional outbursts than many of us are guilty of on this thread, then their marriage has a good shot. I've seen stranger things turn out well.

    Bookmark   February 17, 2008 at 6:40PM
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If my jeans were gone & another pair were in my closet & my husband acted "fishy", I my own self wouldn't be inclined to 'forgive', but that's just me.

What I *would* do, & what I strongly urge Rob to do, is get tested for STDs including AIDS, & have the tests repeated every 6 months.

Many years ago, one of my pals from work had to have a hysterectomy due to PID (pelvic inflammatory disease) caused by an infection her philandering husband brought home.

Had it been treated earlier, the disaster wouldn't have been as extreme.

Had it not been treated when it was, she could have died.

You are a mother, your son needs you:

Take care of yourself.

    Bookmark   February 17, 2008 at 7:55PM
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Honestly, I think that the original post did not give the full story, so it sounded odd that the OP was so upset. Then you read this:

"He did have an oops before when he contacted a group by email, posting he was interested in others. It was at a turning point in our marriage. He'd decided he was leaving, but hadn't left. "

If I found out my husband had been posting looking for other people AND a strange item of clothing that wouldn't normally be taken off by a guest appeared in my home, I would be very concerned too.

I actually think it is admirable that Rob wants to forgive. Forget the pants thing. Forgiving him for posting that on the internet would be tough enough.

Sounds like Rob's DH needs to earn back some trust. Let's assume that the pants thing is soem strange unaccountable thing that happened with no help from Rob's DH. Considering the other indiscretion, he should understand Rob's concern and be as helpful as possible in resolving it. If he is reacting differently to this problem than others, then I too would smell a rat.

Obviously Rob wants to work this out. I hope she can, but the pant thing may just continue to be a mystery. It's a tough one Rob and I don't envy your position. I wish I had some concrete advise, but I think I would try and let the pants aspect go as there is no possible way you can prove what happened unless he confesses and he MAY have nothing to confess. I would discuss your concerns about the otherindiscretions with him again. Tell him that it has damaged your trust in the relationship and you need all his help to rebuild that trust. Then keep your eyes open for signs for the coming year. If there are no other signs, then relegate it all to the past and move forward. What other choice do you have?

    Bookmark   February 17, 2008 at 8:03PM
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i even wonder if DH acts fishy on purpose. maybe he doesn't want to confess but what rob to suspect him cheating so she would just leave him? maybe he wants out but doesn't know how so he acts fishy to drive her crazy. maybe it is too far fetched but everything is possible

    Bookmark   February 18, 2008 at 11:45AM
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LOL - finedreams, only a woman would be so conniving. Men are far too simple, and I mean that as a compliment to men.

    Bookmark   February 19, 2008 at 11:37AM
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Rob, you are unhappy, you think your husband has been unfaithful to you and you think it happend about 4 years ago. You don't say if you think it's a continuing thing or not.
You have been feeling a lack of intimacy for 4 years and base that on the fact that he won't give you a reasonably explination for what happened to a pair of your jeans.
Right so far?

Some have said leave him....your reply is "over a missing pair of jeans if he would tell me, I would be happy?"
Not sure why you posted there but for looking for people to agree with you that your husband was obviously having an affair and the evidence was the missing pants.
But people didn't say that.

If you really want to have a loving and trusting amrriage, you need to ask him, in a non accusatory way, in the presence of your councellor, and then accept what he says....or leave.
It's been 4 1/2 years already! He may have had dozens of flings in that time that you didn't even suspect...get over it....move on....this was one incident 4 years ago with no logical connection to infidelity...but for in your eyes.
If you want to be happy and have a good marriage, you have to move on...not hang on to one tiny thing and worry it like a dog with a bone until there's nothing left of your marriage or your happiness.
Lidna C

    Bookmark   February 19, 2008 at 2:18PM
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Completely wrong, in every way. I'm pretty sure it was the one time. We don't lack intimacy, although greater intimacy is sought. Not based on jeans, based on other things not talked about here. That's another thread for another time. I wasn't looking for agreeing. It could have been agreement, another explanation or just validation that it was really strange (or that I'm not completely off base IF my other thoughts are correct). That's a big if. People agreed some, disagreed some, offered other explanations (the saboteur is the best one yet!), and some said missing a pair of pants is a little odd, but having to account for jeans I would've never bought or seen is incredibly odd. We're basically pretty happy most of the time. It aint perfect just like everyone else. You show me a 100% perfectly happy couple, and what you're really showing me is a couple of lying SOBs.

Don't take things out of context, it won't make you right. Help if you want, I can even hear those sorts of things then take them to heart. But skip posting if you want to hang on to the one bone you think you have because you're wrong, wrong wrong.

    Bookmark   February 19, 2008 at 3:02PM
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so what is the deal really. this story seems to not be moving anywhere. you suspect, he acts fishy, doesn't say neither yes nor no, counselor is not helpful, you are not happy, so what are we discussing here? what do you really want? you apparently cannot make him to confess and without confession you cannot let it go, so what are your options besides leaving him or letting it go? there is nothing else left! since you can't let it go, i think you should call it quits and move on with your life. it took you over 4 years and nothing got resolved, so why do you think you need to spend another 4 years on this? just leave.

    Bookmark   February 19, 2008 at 6:08PM
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Uh no, I found help, wanted a good way to find forgiveness. Can't you read? A counselor is helpful. What I really want, I found, thanks to Amy. Stalemates help no one. I never wanted that, who does? SEE, READ IT THIS TIME:

"which is,it sounds like,: a process of healing and a move towards greater intimacy for both you and your husband)yes, yes, yes!!! You got it. Now for the hard part... as long as he cooperates, and as long as you make it safe for him to do so. (and you don't have to compromise who you are in order to make it safe - Talk to your counselor about that -) I think this is where my difficulty lies. Although, the good news is, Maybe part of what might help you get to a more gentle place would be to recognize that you might actually have contributed to some of the lack of intimacy in the marriage as well (gulp - that might hurt, be prepared) - it's easier to go about solving problems in the marriage when we recognize that we aren't perfect and aren't "above" the other person - instead, we're both struggling to make this work and to discover and learn etc - I've visited here and continue to do work.

Now that's some real help. Thank you, thank you, thank you!"

You leave fd. Or keep your scathing sarcasm to yourself. Enough. Do those of you who try so hard to thwart have nothing better to do? No real life? Are you so above it all you don't understand forgiveness? Y'all are sad.

I thought we were here te help.

    Bookmark   February 19, 2008 at 6:39PM
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Rob333 - I just want to share this. My first husband made me feel like Ingrid Bergman in Gaslight - because my underwear was always back in the wrong place in the drawer and sometimes it was like a heavier woman had worn it- stitches strained, etc. It made me nutz because he swore up and down there was no other woman...and there wasn't. It was HIM! Is there any possibility your husband secretly dresses up in your clothing when you are not around? It's actually a very common fetish. He could have done something to your pants -ripped them maybe -and then tried to replace them.
P.S. TRUST your intuition, it's real.

    Bookmark   February 19, 2008 at 7:46PM
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Scarlett, that's amazing! I have to admit hubby does have a strange fascination with my underwear (he might jokingly wear it on his head, he's pretty funny), but not really in my jeans. I sure laugh at the thought of my 250 pound hubby trying to fit in them though. I hope it worked out for you and thanks for the reassurance.

    Bookmark   February 19, 2008 at 8:38PM
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no sarcasm, but attempts to understand what do you really want? do you always get angry when people disagree with you or give you suggestions (espcially when you ask for it in a forum).

you said you suspect he cheated, he won't confess, without his confession you won't let it go and won't forgive. so it has been going on for 4 years. it is understandable that you feel bad about it, but what are your options? you can talk and talk about it and get angry at people but it doesn't make him to confess. of course we understand forgiveness, and i and other posters suggested that you forgive and let it go. but you refuse to forgive him because he won't confess! you don't want to forgive, this is nothing to do with us here. you either forgive or leave. you cannot force him to confess.

    Bookmark   February 19, 2008 at 10:22PM
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"Are you so above it all you don't understand forgiveness?"

excatly because we understand forgiveness, we suggest you forgive him without expecting confession. if he didn't confess in 4 years, he probably won't ever. and if you didn't forgive him in 4 years, it is very unlikely you will. it is a vicious cycle.

    Bookmark   February 19, 2008 at 10:28PM
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And now the cycle can end. I couldn't just blindly swallow this one, with so many indicators (there are more, but why give bashers more ammo to pick apart?) pointing to him leaving, unfaithful in heart and actions. Not only that, some posters on this very thread said they wouldn't do it all, once a cheater, always a cheater, and other similar comments. Encourage me not bash me. I'm either stupid for forgiving or incapable of forgiving. As far as I can see, I'm trying harder than most people would.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2008 at 8:30AM
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nobody is bashing you. you are not the one who is unfaithful or acting fishy. he is. i actually encourage you that if he refuses to comnfess but you know he is unfaithful then maybe it is better for you to move on. you don't need this! we are just expressing our opinions. mine is you either forgive and let it go right now or leave him and eventually find someone who is faithful.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2008 at 8:49AM
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Man oh mighty do I have things i need to be getting done today, but yet here I am compulsively returning to my own vomit - LOL! Something about this thread has me intrigued.

Finedreams, I have to respectfully disagree with you, in that there are only two options. There are actually a few more options for Rob, and it looks like she's taking one of them:

Rob is in counseling right now, examining those things that she might inadvertently be doing that is keeping her husband from being open with her. Good Job Rob!!!

Do you know that if people would take this path more often, they'd be a lot happier in the long run?

Finedreams, take your option number 2 - to leave because he hasn't confessed what she desperately believes to be true. She simply cannot do that! First, if he HAS committed a crime, then what we have here is a situation where he #1: Was unhappy enough in the relationship to look outside. We cannot eliminate the reality that there were two people in the relationship so there's a good possibility that both contributed to his dissatisfaction. That doesn't excuse his behaviors but it certainly is something to take a look at - otherwise her contributions to the problem will be un checked and she will take those faults onto the next relationship. #2: Was un willing or un able to tell the truth. Now, that could be all his fault, or she could possibly be someone who is hard to approach. (LOL! Does that resonate with anyone on this thread? That's just feedback Rob, and as natural as it feels to get angry about negative feedback, it is information that is best used to figure out what is going on in your relationships with others, including your husband.)

Bottom line, if she just says "screw it" and walks away - the reality is that if she has any part of this problem, then very possibly she might be walking away from a very good match for her, and would most likely be taking her unfound issues with her right into the next relationship.

I believe Rob is exactly where she needs to be. It sounds like she has a keeper, from her point of view - she just wants something more - and the BEST way to achieve that is to look at the self FIRST. Make adjustments where they are needed. That opens doors to truth.

Eventually the truth will come, and yes, four years is a long time to wait but after the work, it will be okay. Certainly, it would have been best to deal with this four years ago, but maybe Rob was not in a place mentally to handle whatever the truth is - NOTE: Be it the truth that her husband was unfaithful OR that the truth is that the problem lies within herself. The truth will come.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2008 at 12:01PM
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Well put AF...
I think the problem that so many of us have with the issue is that we feel that Rob does not yet recognize that forgiveness is not confession and admission of guilt and then forgivness, but that the person that is looking to forgive be open and accepting and WILLING to forgive.....even without a confession. Forgiving is not conditional...forgiving is loving in spite of...loving without knowing just what the wrong is....loving anyway!
As Amy says the truth will come out whether it is that her husband was unfaithful or whether the problem lies within her....but I suspect the real truth is somewhere in between.

I am remembering that old series..."Can this marriage be saved??"....and they would print her side.....then his side and then the counselors' evaluation and recommendations.
I would love to hear the other side of this story.
Linda C

    Bookmark   February 20, 2008 at 3:59PM
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I haven't been willing (in the past years, that's been the delay), but now I am. I never said I was perfect. And it hasn't been a hateful, gut wreenching few years. It's just one issue. Plenty of other things have kept us together and moved us forward. Finding a way to forgive can be easier said than done. I never needed a confession to forgive him. I just wanted, I think, after much talk here, validation from him that what I am seeing/feeling/experiencing are real and understandable things. He said he understood when we talked again, days ago. He said it with his mouth, his demeanor, his eyes. Every inch of him said he accepted why I thought I what I did, and wanted resolultion in a way that was good for both of us. He's read this whole thread. He agreed with all my justifications. Yes, I have a great memory, no sitters, no one cleaning the house, etc. and that I have HAD reason to think what I DID. It's in the past, and we want to get it behind us, in a way that is satisfactory to both. There is no other half of this story. I mean, he's perplexed and knows things could have been nicer on all sides, but nothing kept back except more dirty laundry. Is that what you want, the dirty laundry? He's fine, I'm fine. It's done.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2008 at 5:12PM
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glad to hear it rob.

about that forgiveness without confession thing that a couple of posters recommend:

in every religion & ethical system I can remember, the transgressor has to repent & to ask for forgiveness, then he/she has to atone or make restitution, then forgiveness is granted.

(which sounds like what has happened here.)

Without those steps, "forgiveness" is just a get-out-of-jail-free card, & the transgressor has no humble appreciation for having been forgiven & no motivation to do better in future.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2008 at 6:03PM
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It's done?

I can now get back to the laundry. No pun intended.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2008 at 8:14PM
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"It's done."

Thank you!

    Bookmark   February 20, 2008 at 8:47PM
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Now we're divorcing, so I though an update was in order. How about an extra piece of lingerie (two sizes smaller and a size I haven't worn in a decade.) in the truck (that we've only had for about a year) along with his undergarments on the seat (where my son could've seen?!)? Or a card that says she love his sexy smile... or the bottle of wine opened which he and didn't share. He doesn't drink.

My gut was right. And she lives in low income housing, so maybe she took the jeans and my jewelry because she couldn't afford her own. My point being, listen to your gut. Strange stuff will show out at the end. Just listen to it.

    Bookmark   November 17, 2008 at 10:50AM
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I am very sorry for you. I know you tried, it seems he did not try as hard as you did.
Karen L

    Bookmark   November 17, 2008 at 11:27AM
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Oh no Rob!!! I am so very very sorry! And you're right on listening to your gut. That's how I caught my ex as well, even though I didn't think it could possibly be happening.

As I was skimming over this again, I remembered a girl friend of mine who found underwear under her couch. Not hers. No explaination, ever. She "let it go" and they continued another six years. they're now divorcing.

Again, I'm sorry you had to go through this. Best luck in the future!

    Bookmark   November 17, 2008 at 11:49AM
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Thanks Karen, I appreciate it. I did try really really hard. Too bad he didn't, he's gonna miss out.

Silver, it's ok. We ended up going to counseling, both individual and couples therapy for over a year. We could do more than we did. I found out how right on I was even though he'd spent years trying to tell me how I didn't fit what he thought I should be. It was great to hear a professional tell me I was well adjusted and very justified in feeling the things I felt. She found underwear? Good to know I am not alone. I just find it funny, probably half those here would've said she just forget she bought them and then misplaced them.

It's not the one thing, it's all the little ones that add up and the gut can glue them all together.

    Bookmark   November 17, 2008 at 12:28PM
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That must have been really validating to know you aren't crazy. I know that "crazy-looking-for-something-I can't-find" feeling and to top it off, finding pants that weren't yours... weird.

Yes, at first I thought my girlfriend was a little loco when she told me about the panties she found. But then she showed them to me, and you know how it is... sometimes you can just tell she'd have nothing to do with those crotchless lace wonders with pink bows. LOL!!!

Now here's the part I want to know... did you ever get your jewelry back (who cares about the jeans now that her skeezy bum has been in them)!

    Bookmark   November 17, 2008 at 4:03PM
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Not so far. Danggit. I miss that black pearl bracelet. She can have the watch he gave me. And I miss the necklace, but having my son is worth losing a necklace.

    Bookmark   November 17, 2008 at 7:43PM
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so sorry to hear about divorce but it is for the best.

i was right then, i could never understand why you wanted to make him confess. and you were so sure it happened only one time. it never is just one time. i am glad you didn't spend any longer on trying to forgive or make him confess. if it is still the same woman, it was going on for too long, even if a different one.

make sure you go to a doctor check yourself and good luck in your new life. you certainly are better off alone than with a man who sleeps with different women in your own bed. what a shameless SOB.

    Bookmark   November 17, 2008 at 7:49PM
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Oh Rob, I didn't even ask about your child and how that was going... when I got my divorce I made a deal... you get everything, if I get custody. He agreed. And he's a 'good' dad, but just not in a healthy place to raise a kid.

I wouldn't go back on my deal for the world!!! I tell her, you can buy just about anything at the store, but I can't get another _________.

    Bookmark   November 17, 2008 at 11:25PM
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Geez,alot of negative,rather rude comments to you about your (gut) feelings too.Hope I never have a problem I need to post about.
Women may not have a sixth sense regarding men cheating,but we know our clothes dangit!!!

    Bookmark   November 18, 2008 at 5:58AM
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you said it fire! I just wanted to make sure I did right all the way. I still am doing it right. And it's about to pay off in sole custody, but still get my stuff.

Silver, you should've gotten both. I will. I don't care if I have to pay my lawyer a gazillion dollars, a few thousand now vs. being poor forever. My husband isn't a good dad. He's a great friend to LF when they're hanging out. I may say, if you pay the debt you can have one extra night every other weekend. Maybe. Right now, LF is too happy he's gone to even consider it.

ilove, your clothes comment made me gut laugh. Right on baby! I'm sure they were just being devils' advocates. It's ok. We get like that sometimes. I still love them.

    Bookmark   November 18, 2008 at 8:37AM
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Rob, thank you... but in the state I divorced, they are very big on fathers rights. Plus, he had enough money to fight me to the death. I had an excellent lawyer, the top family lawyer in my area, and had a consult with the second top so he couldn't use that lawyer either. Had I gone to court I would not have ended up with sole custody and it would have been really ugly. By going to mediation I was able to get the best deal I think I could have. My lawyer told me to take it and run. (which would not have paid them any more, so I don't think it was self-serving at all). The consult with the second top lawyer ended with her telling me I'd better just stay with him because there was no way I'd get anything, and I'd never be able to leave the state with my daughter.

Plus the state in which I divorced is no fault. It doesn't matter if he was cheating. None of his poor judgment would have come up in court at all, and that's all I had as proof against him. I think I got a pretty good deal, considering. And we aren't enemies now, which is really really really nice.

    Bookmark   November 18, 2008 at 12:21PM
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Well phooey on that! I am glad you're friends. We keep trying to be, but it won't end up that way. He sent me a proposal for 43% him/57% me custody as his acquience to his original 50/50 proposal. I'm sorry, a child needs one home. I suggested a 35/65 split and he just would NOT go for it, told me to fight him. So I am. But not for 26 more days out of the year, I'm fighting for one home for my sweet kiddo. No bouncing around. Yes, we have fault divorce here, and that's a good thing. I can't believe courts would allow a person (be it a man or a woman) cheating right in front of the child to go unpunished! That's an ultimately selfish thing for someone to do and traumatic for a child. Shame on the courts in your state. I feel for you. Glad you have your baby.

    Bookmark   November 18, 2008 at 12:32PM
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As for being friends we arenÂt enemies anymore... LOL! WeÂre friendly. But we arenÂt friends.

You should have seen the look on my face when I walked into the divorce attorneyÂs office with all my solid, dated, evidence and she told me it wasnÂt worth the paper it was printed on. I cried all the way home.

Fight for your child. I started out wanting my fair half until I realized I could lose her. Then I let everything else go and concentrated only on her. The boat, sure, you can have it. The furniture? Ok. Sure. WhateverÂs valuable to you. But I get custody. I literally shook for a year, not knowing what he would do, or if I would get to keep her.

Worst thing is, she has no idea what went wrong, nor can I ever tell her. It's horrible.

My heart goes out to you. I think youÂre doing the right thing.

    Bookmark   November 18, 2008 at 4:05PM
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First, I'm so sorry that you were betrayed - what a terrible thing for any individual to endure. It will take some work to recover from that, no?

Second, I'm going to go out on a limb here, and be very unpopular no doubt, but it needs to be said. With this deep of a betrayal, the pants were a very small symptom of a much bigger problem. I'm going to say that there was much that was wrong here, and it was the bigger piece that was wrong that led you to question the pants.

We here reading could not 'feel' the wrongness, or absence of intimacy, here in cyber world. The only information we had was "pants."

If anyone else were in a similar situation, it would be good to listen to gut....but believe me, there are plenty of people who have a trust issue to begin with that has nothing do to with their partner. Maybe it's past relationships, poor parenting, whatever....I'd bet that in the next relationship you're in, if this is not resolved, you'll be in hyper drive when it comes to unexplained phenomenon around the house. That said, it is important to understand that there are things that happen that have nothing to do with a spouse's unfaithfulness. Plenty of folks out there hurting because their partner is breathing down their necks for no good reason other than the ketchup is on a different shelf, or an unexplained phone number.

Pants, themselves are not a reason to leave your marriage. Pants plus all the other stuff - absence of intimacy, distance, gut feelings based on other things, etc etc etc, is worthy of some attention.

Nothing worse than getting cheated on. Read some Janis Abrahms Spring, and good luck to you.

    Bookmark   November 18, 2008 at 5:32PM
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AF-"First, I'm so sorry that you were betrayed - what a terrible thing for any individual to endure. It will take some work to recover from that, no?"

Thanks for your concern. I must be numb or just so freaking glad for the chaos to be over, but so far I am really happy. Bliss is the word I keep using. He's been almost a month now and my home is clean, organized, full of loving kindness, meals shared with people who got run off, and most of all, a happy kid.

Second, I'm going to go out on a limb here, and be very unpopular no doubt, but it needs to be said. With this deep of a betrayal, the pants were a very small symptom of a much bigger problem. I'm going to say that there was much that was wrong here, and it was the bigger piece that was wrong that led you to question the pants."

Absolutely. I had strange things going on for a long time. I was just trying to present it objectively. Again, I don't think that could ever happen. I do find it important to note pants don't just walk into a closet. No rationale was ever offered that I agreed with. I had decided levis were thte brand for me, since nothing else ever really fit right; I knew they weren't mine. However, of the weird things, it was the first thing I could hold in my hands, that was couldn't be explained away. I do think undergarments would've been taken more seriously. I don't disagree someone changing in your house is completely unreasonable for most, but a weird bra is harder to explain away.

"I'd bet that in the next relationship you're in, if this is not resolved, you'll be in hyper drive when it comes to unexplained phenomenon around the house. That said, it is important to understand that there are things that happen that have nothing to do with a spouse's unfaithfulness."

It was explained. He was a slime. I'm a big truster and I've been in plenty of relationships since I'm in my forties. I don't think I'll be hypersensitive, although I could see where others might take heed that it could happen to them.

Amy, I think what you said helped the most. I wanted for ME to be able to forgive so that I could find closure. I know how anger can eat a person alive and that the responsibility lay on my shoulders, since he was never going to be "worthy" of the forgiveness. Is anyone ever? But him owning up to it could've helped that. Nonetheless, it is his inadequacy that I will not take personally. I have forgiven. Hey?! Maybe that's why I am so good and blissful now.

    Bookmark   November 19, 2008 at 8:18AM
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