need advise

kariJanuary 13, 2003

I have looked at this board trying to find someone who has been through a similar situation but havent found it yet...

about a year ago my husband moved 60 miles north of our home for work, I stayed to sell "my house". 6 months later, The day we closed on our new home I found out that he had a "friend", it bothered me but he insisted that it was a nice couple for us to be friends with. She stopped by the house the weekend after we moved in and I definately picked up on some strange "vibes". A couple months later I heard a voice mail on his cell phone from her talking about thier wedding day blah blah blah... When I told him I had heard it he said that she was delusional that yes he had flirted but that she knew he was commited to me, and she knew that I could hear his voice mail. It has been very hard for me to try and put that behind us. AND he is still talking to her, he says she calls him but I think it goes both ways... Are women desperate enough to go to such lenghts to sabotage another relationship or should I get a reality check??

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Trust your instincts, his friend is bad news. If I were in your shoes, I would tell him that he needs to keep his friend at a distance and that these personal phone calls are very suspicious. Of course there are people who go to such lengths. The thing that bothers me about this is that your husband knows that this is a problem, surely he knows how to say the words "please don't call me, it's causing problems in my marriage" and yet he talks WITH her on the phone. It takes 2 to have a conversation. If after you discuss this with him, you start having your own personal conversations with AN ATTOURNEY doesn't make him uncomfortable, he has already made a decision to leave you for this tramp.
Good luck and yes this is a reality check.

    Bookmark   January 14, 2003 at 12:17PM
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Yes woman will go that far, As Jainie said, trust your instincts. A similar thing happened to me about 12 years ago. My husband became "just friends" with our 5 year old daughter's schoolmate's mother. He was an out of work painter, she was a bored housewife with a husband who provided her well. My husband would not stop the relationship. They spent 18 months trying to convince me they were just friends. She would cover her tracks well. She would give him pictures but always with her daughter in it or cards that were unsigned. When I asked her to stop coming to our house when I wasn't home, she came anyway. Said her daughter needed to stop to use the restroom. She always made herself look good and made me look stupid. She went to great lengths; there's just not enough time to tell you everything. She even went to our pastor and asked what kind of church taught that a man and woman couldn't be friends. I finally got a tape recorder and heard enough of his conversation to her to know it was more than friends. I finally gave up and divorced him. Today she is still with her husband of course and my ex is alone. I have remarried to a wonderful man going on 10 years. I would definitely let him know this is or will cause problems in our marriage if left to go on. Good luck.

    Bookmark   January 14, 2003 at 1:24PM
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Update, things got really bad, I called her. She had me believing what she was saying up until she claimed not to have been in love with him, but he was with her. She must have forgotten that I heard the voice mail where it was her talking about a wedding day. And I made him let me listen to the call where he said to her"I am sorry if anything I said made you think I felt that way, she said nothing you have said I am the one that crossed the line" Then she told me that he has never been in love with me. I KNOW that is not true, we were going through a rough time when he moved, but I know we loved oneanother at one time. She of course called him to tell him about the coversation, I told him what she had said to me, she hadn't, and he said he will tell her he doesnt care if her children die(the reason for the other call was that she was upset her brother in law had died) dont call me again. I told him I was leaving and he said that we cant go on living like this but he loves me with all his heart and would hate to see the wonderful life we can have end. So either we move on from here and become the old us or we have to end, he was willing to work if I was. I am still there, I pray I am not a fool.

    Bookmark   January 15, 2003 at 10:05AM
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Kari, I don't have any advice or words of wisdom for you, but you seem like your head is on straight and that you will do what you know is right for you. I wish you all the best in these troubling times.

    Bookmark   January 15, 2003 at 10:26AM
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Kari, Every time my ex would try to break it off with his "friend", she would suddenly have some kind of crisis where she would need him. I think even though he was trying to end it at times, they were co-dependant on each other. In the end she got what she wanted....a toy to play with. Our lives were ruined. I hope yours has a better ending. You have told him you will leave, now the ball is in his court. He must make the next move. Most times they don't realize what they stand to lose until they have already lost it. Good luck to you.

    Bookmark   January 15, 2003 at 11:07AM
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Every marriage has it's highs and lows. You guys have hit a major low point but it doesn't have to be permanent. Your ending can be anything you want - if and only if - you are willing to work hard for something good. Please get yourselves to marriage counseling as fast as you can. If either of you doesn't like or feel completely comfortable with the counseler, move on and try somebody new immediately. Read an appropriate self-help book. Pray. But, don't leave this to chance or hope the issues will solve themselves, because that's how marriages fail. If you both recommit and are willing to work at it, in a year or two, you can have a great marriage. Please note that I said a year or two. Your marriage will get better day by day if you put in enough effort, but it takes time to heal wounds like this. Your hubby has got to want to work too - because it takes 2 people to make a marriage work, but only 1 person to screw it up.


    Bookmark   January 15, 2003 at 11:54AM
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I am glad that you confronted him with this and didn't go through this alone. I think that this is a positive move, but, still, keep the 3rd eye out. If you notice something fishy, don't be played a fool. Counseling is a good idea. It will be hard to trust again. Be prepared for a long road to relationship repair, if that is what you wish for. Another word of advice, have her number(s) blocked from the cell phone and land lines. It's very easy to do. When she calls she'll get the message "the party at this line is not taking calls from you". It really hits home. I did this once for a different reason, but I wanted the same results, stop calling us. Also, if she sends letters, put return to sender on them and put it back in the mail box. I would tell hubby that you are doing this. If he isn't being honest, he'll have to go to great lengths to keep in touch with her and you will catch him. Be weary of odd trips out.
Good luck, you are in my prayers

    Bookmark   January 15, 2003 at 4:16PM
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You can see a counselor with or without your partner. That is, seeing someone who is a counselor can be helpful just for you, even if you and your husband are both seeing a relationship counselor as well.

People can complicated. Usually, people don't like imposed 'change.' That goes even for people who have become involved in places or other relationships where their presence is more disruptive than supportive. Sometimes things are less mutual than they appear, sometimes not. It's hard to tell from the outside. Some people seem to be more likely, at least in some situations, to confuse fantasy and wishful thinking with reality. Also, human beings don't come with convenient labelling that would easily alert others to particular needs or quirks that may be present.

That's the prelude to, if a woman who has flirted with your husband leaves a message (knowing you could or would hear it) about her wedding day-- with your husband no less-- that sounds like she has problems. It's an anti-social sort of thing; it may or may not relate to delusions she had or has; and/or she might be attempting to cause pain in your relationship (to you or your husband, or both). Mainly unknown, but people who are conventionally 'normal' and stable don't make those kinds of phone calls. People who act unpredictably, in ways that might indicate desperation of that sort can be dangerous. In addition to counseling for yourself and within your relationship, it might also be a good idea to talk to them (or risk assessment professionals) about the situation in terms of risk assessment.

hopefully though, you don't become the couple of the past that you were, but instead get to experience being older and wiser and better within your relationship

P.S. Boundaries are important, but easy to miss or to blur. It may be possible that your husband has an idea, based on his subjective sense of reality, that he and that woman can be friends (or were friends, simply because he is able to have friends and be platonic and stable). It may also be possible that, at least that one woman is not as able to be a friend in that sense. Her subjective sense may be quite different from his. Some people have traits, and beyond-- to the point of disorder-- which keep them from being able to have nonpressured, platonic and healthy friendships with others. It wouldn't matter really within the context of your situation, it seems pretty clear that your husband would need to give an emotionally detached, clear and totally unambiguous message to her about no contact. (That's why the risk assessment consultation is as important as the counseling. She may have problems with him detaching, and she may have problems with herself detaching dispassionately.)

    Bookmark   January 15, 2003 at 9:47PM
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amygdala, I think you are absolutely on target. It is nice to hear that what I hoped to be my reality could be. I think my husband is able to have platonic friendships. He is incredibly sensitive to people, funny and outgoing. I can see why any women would be attracted and want him in thier lives. This woman has driven by our house several times, left other messages when she knew I was in the car with him, and told me several things in our conversation that I just dont buy. I hope that she can detach but it would not suprise me if she causes other problems first. I really wanted to believe that she was instigating all the problems but felt that he must be asking for it in some way if she wouldnt go away.... I really needed to have that conversation with her to be able to put aside my doubts about the situation. Now it is time to reconstruct and grow in our relationship. Most of the stresses that would have had him looking for friendship had been settled months ago and now I really feel able to open my heart again after the events of the past few days.

    Bookmark   January 17, 2003 at 10:34AM
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a couple we know had such a close relationship with this other couple they even went on vacations together. well everyone at the office knew he was seeing her but nobody told the wife, well since then she found out. Theyre still together he told her hes not seeing her anymore but he is and he has a secret phone in breif case hes using. They say if your instincts are telling you he is cheating they usually are.

    Bookmark   January 18, 2003 at 9:24AM
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If she continues contact after she has been specifically advised that no contact is wanted, the situation is something that may require law enforcement involvement.

Stalking is very serious. If her behaviour does not extinguish itself, and if he has advised her not to continue continue contact you may need to consult a lawyer. Sooner is better than later with this sort of thing because people who have problems that lead them to that behaviour often view it as permissible if not desired behaviour-- that is, the person is saying 'no' but somehow means 'yes'; it seems reasonable to them that the 'no' is somehow being forced on them by their partner and is not a 'true' message. People in that state of mind will usually view any and all 'attention' as positive/good-- even when it is negative, or even if the person making contact does not mean for that to happen.

Platonic or not, people who are 'friends' generally try to avoid hurting each other (but it sounds like that particular 'friend' had a reasonable expectation that you, and her 'friend' would be hurt by her actions). Depending on your husband, he may need some counseling support to be able to learn how to detach and to maintain that boundary with her (and others)-- so that he can have a marriage, and friendships with people who can be platonic friends in a similar sense as he can.

P.S. There is a paradox inherent when a person views no contact as 'abandonment' of some kind, to be avoided at any and all costs-- no matter what. There are people who cannot tolerate being 'just friends' even to people who mean well, and who want to be. They are usually able to get help, and to learn how to manage their extremes if they impair their capacity to live 'normally' or how they want to live. But, that capacity is best served by a professional and with safe boundaries, and not by people motivated by friendship.

P.P.S. Odds are, even if she has problems, it won't be too long before someone else with a shoulder comes along for her.

    Bookmark   January 18, 2003 at 3:20PM
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I agree with Bulldinkie.

    Bookmark   January 18, 2003 at 4:42PM
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I agree with bulldinkie and denise also, something very inappropriate was going on, platonic or not, it was not appropriate. What matters to me is wether it is still going on or not and in what context. And if it is who was making and keeping contact. I think my husband thought it was a friendship, he is no angel I think he was considering or possibly did cheat. But we had vowed to stay together and work through it. I wasnt able to because I knew that she was still calling him and thought that he was encouraging it, now I know her true motive, If she had a "love" affair with him then platonic or not she would want to protect his and her own families now... she doesnt, she is sick and wants to cause us as much pain as she can.

    Bookmark   January 18, 2003 at 10:47PM
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Trust your instincts. I was in a similar situation before we got married (have been HAPPILY FOR FOUR YEARS NOW). I rolled the waves. WE WON.
I saw an attorney with a complete list of everything we owned together and a complete list of how I wanted things divided (we were common-law at that point). I gave my loving husband a copy and told him to think about what he really wanted. (This gal was a REAL BARBIE DOLL, MODEL - I AM NOT!)
I saw a counsellor, asked hubby to come, he did not.
My counsellor told me of all the people he has counselled he thought I was very attuned to what I saw and that I was extremely intelligent (intuition I think).
Basically to put things in perspection - I met my husband as he was coming out of a bad marriage and just finished a divorce. He had a 'history' during his previous marriage of having 'special' friends. I told the doctor I recognised this.

It is call 'the black madonna'. About 80 percent of the male population wants a woman wearing a sleezy outfit at their fingertips and a saint at home to look after them. So they have the good wife and fun on the side (even if it is just flirting). His response - dump this guy.

I disagreed. I saw the whole thing as a time in my husbands life of confusion. Coming to terms with his divorce. This 'barbie doll' was using him for attention, along with her TWIN sister. They both had their share of problems - love of themselves and male attention. I could see right through them. He wined and dined them. Private emails. Basically treated me like dirt.

I sought professional help. Thought long and hard.

Some things in life are worth fighting for. I told him to end the relationship. Basically I let her know loud and clear what I thought about her and her sister. I drew the line. Laid my cards on the table. I really spelled it out to my husband he was to shape up or ship out. It took a couple of years to settle down, but we did. He is not proud of his behaviour. He had a history with his first wife of this and I made it extremely clear I would not tolerate it. I had, before our relationship, similar male friends who he did not like - I gave them up because I finally met someone I loved.

We are the best of friends. He is the love of my life in so many ways. I consider myself lucky things worked out - they don't always.

Ask yourself this:

are you really happy feeling like you do?
if he continues with the other person - don't you think he wants the sleeze on the side to tickle his fancy while you clean his socks? cook his meals?
don't you deserve to be happy to?

You have a whole life to live, and only ONE KICK AT THE CAN.

Please seek counselling for yourself at the very least. Make sure your head is on straight.
See an attorney and get things documented so if the worst happens, you are prepared.
Let him know how much you really love him but you also mean business.


Please seek professional help. I did. I was prepared to move on. Life is too short and you deserve a loving relationship.


    Bookmark   January 30, 2003 at 11:14PM
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