I could use some advice

too_oldshortslowJanuary 31, 2007

I have been suspecting my wife of 20+ years of having a "cyber" relationship with a married man for "some time" now. You have to understand that I am a IT Pro and am aware of and have used PC tools to track her and her "friends" activities while online.

recently things online have "heated" up. with both engaging in online chats that include "pleasuring themselves". She recently met him for PIZZA and after I asked her 3 times she lied about who she was with. He lives 5-6 hours away and had to make a special trip..

I have done my homework... I know a great deal about HIM, full name address, phone number, his WIFE'S name.

I have worked out in some ways what I can do to halt my wifes activities, I have PLENTY of hard evidence.

Should I let his wife in on the dirty dealing too? He could be headed for a second divorce...

I have a "act now" block... need to hear from some one who has "been there, done that".

thanks for listening

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So let's say you are able to compel her to stop by some means. Then what? Do you still want her? I wouldn't. Nor would I hesitate to blow the whistle on everyone else. Assuming you've got your facts straight, this really stinks. No way home once the trust is gone.

Suggest the "Walt Disney/Davy Crockett" approach: "Be sure you're right. Then go ahead."

Only encourage you to decide in advance what your wishes for final outcome actually are. Then act in a way most likely to accomplish that. No need for dramatics. Time for action, however.

Sorry for your trouble.

    Bookmark   January 31, 2007 at 11:49AM
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I haven't been there...but I too would agree there is no need for dramatics.

What do you want to happen from all of this? Do you want to leave you wife, want her to break off the relationship and beg your forgiveness, do you simply want revenge, or is there something else you're after?

Simply tell her you "know" she is having an affair, give his name, etc. and go from there. She may beg your forgiveness, or she may say 'oh well, you caught me' and run off with him. Without knowing what you want, it's hard to advise you. Good luck whatever way you handle it.

    Bookmark   January 31, 2007 at 12:36PM
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The logical thing to do is to confront her and serve her with Divorce papers. The cybersex is bad enough, but actually going to meet the guy is intolerable.

    Bookmark   January 31, 2007 at 7:34PM
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Gee, I know how I would feel, if I knew you where "watching me" on the internet. Presumably you have not ever trusted her, otherwise why would you start checking up on her.

I do, however, agree with the idea of thinking about what you want to happen, before you confront her.

You are so many years into your marriage, you have been through a lot together, is it worth throwing that all away just over this incident ?

I too, have been married that long, and if this was happening to me, I would hear alarm bells and want to fix what was going on in my marriage.

But then, if there is a history of infidelity, then that's another question.

If your wife is straying, I would would wonder what you have done or haven't done, to send her off looking for love. Perhaps your marriage needs some work in the love, caring, compassion, area. Valentine's day coming up, roses, chocolate, night out.....

Do you have any children, what impact will this have on their lives.

Ask yourself "why has she done this ", do you think she is lonely ?


    Bookmark   February 1, 2007 at 2:12AM
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I'm totally with Popi on this --

Your wife's behavior is, without a doubt, wrong. But she had her reasons, and you may want to consider what they may have been before confronting her. Most women don't cheat because they're looking for sex; they cheat because they're looking for the emotional intimacy that's missing in their marriages.

Definitely consider what you want to achieve. Do you want to rebuild a marriage that has gone a bit stale? A truly worthy aim if you have children or if you once shared a closeness and still have a core of respect intact. Or do you just want revenge? Understandable, but not highly productive.

And if you do decide you want to save your marriage, I'd suggest something more original than a dozen roses and chocolates for Valentine's Day. (no offense intended Popi)

    Bookmark   February 1, 2007 at 11:54AM
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Don't care for the snooping behavior on your behalf. I would not appreciate that at all. If you don't trust your wife, there is a big problem, regardless if she is seeing someone else either cyber or in person. How do you know they met in person, evesdroping on the computer or following her?

Why are you tracking what your wife does on the internet? I think that is at best a breach of her privacy. Does she know you are doing this? That really turns me off despite what you have learned. I think it is creepy like stalking. I don't care if you are married to her or not. If you are doing this without her knowledge, it is just gives me the creeps.

To contact this man's wife would be ridiculous. Discuss your situation with your wife. Why would you address the other man's spouse. He and she are not your business. Your wife is your business. What would be gained by contacting the man's wife?

I hear about desperate "other women" or jilted wives who knock on doors to give a head's up to another cheated on spouse involved the situation. Childish at best. It accomplishes nothing. It might make you feel good, but that's a silly reason to do it.

You can't force your wife to stay in your marriage. You also can't stop the cheating. You can divorce her and be done with it. Move on. Find a trustworthy partner and don't snoop or monitor her. I don't know any woman who would put up with that behavior.

    Bookmark   February 1, 2007 at 6:26PM
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Gee a big "thankyou" to Asolo, I really appreciate your kindness in saying that I am "Amazing".

This problem from the OP, needs investigation, without negative emotions used as bullets.

Asolo said :

" Then what? Do you still want her? I wouldn't. Nor would I hesitate to blow the whistle on everyone else. Assuming you've got your facts straight, this really stinks. " We dont know the whole facts of the situation, but I think people deserve a second chance, people make mistakes. This marriage has been going on for years, you can't just throw in the towel after one unfortunate incident.

Forgiveness is difficult, but it will bring happiness.


    Bookmark   February 1, 2007 at 9:14PM
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I don't agree with slamming this guy for checking up on his wife. If I had suspicions, I'd do the same thing. It's fine to say "well if you have suspicions, just confront them, don't snoop". In real life, the accused would just deny it.

I do agree with Sweeby..." Most women don't cheat because they're looking for sex; they cheat because they're looking for the emotional intimacy that's missing in their marriages."

    Bookmark   February 1, 2007 at 9:43PM
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Have you put as much effort into figuring out what is going on in your marriage as you have in tracking your wife's cyber adventures? I can't excuse her behavior - if you are correct, then she is at fault. But there are reasons for such things.

Some people don't allow any strikes at all in such situations. If you commit a foul you are out. If that is you, then move on. There is nothing to be gained by theatrics. If you do want to try to save your marriage you will have to use the information you have to bring the matter to serious discussion, not to browbeat and condemn your wife.

I'm intrigued by the name you chose - too_oldshortslow...it suggests a bit of a self esteem issue to me. Could that be the reason for the surveillance on your wife? If that is the case I hope you can put enough value on yourself to talk with her on a fair level - she should not have cheated/own up to whatever faults you may have. Once it's all on the table you may have a chance to work out your problems and go on with a better understanding.

    Bookmark   February 1, 2007 at 11:23PM
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Okay, here's my take.

She's having an emotional, if not physical affair. So what do you want to do about it? Emotionally what do you want to do with your marriage after that. That is what it comes down to. Emotional affairs can be just as devistating as physical ones, period.

Why is she having the affair...who knows, who cares. Affairs can be blamed on one spouse or the other, fact is the person who has the affair broke their marriage vows. Is is something you did or didn't do..doesn't really matter did it, it's a breach of a marriage contract.

Why did you snoop, same reason anyone would if they suspected an affair. Some people hire detectives, some follow their spouse. THEY SUSPECT AN AFFAIR, period.

So what do you do. Confronting the other person...nah, they may be innocent inthe entire thing. WAIT, how can I say that. Well, your wife could be saying she's single, so what if he's married and having an affair on HIS wife, if he thinks she's single, he's innocent of her affair. Besides, it's his problem, not yours, your wife an your marriage is your problem right now.

So what do you do.

First off you decide what you want out of your marriage now. Do you want to try to fix it if she is willing or do you want out. Is it salvageable (with a LOT of hard work on both parts, you have to learn to trust, she to be trusted, plus as with any marriage you will both have issues that have to be worked on. Marriage counseling is a must). Or will you hang up the towel. No one can give you this answer. If your answer right now is I don't know, when in doubt, DON'T...I mean, don't make a decision until you're sure (of course she may make that decision for you, be aware of that).

Then, when you've decided (or not), where you stand, you tell her this. I became suspicious, so I checked (there really is a sixth sense about affairs often, ask many people who's spouse has had one, they just felt something was wrong), and my suspicion was confirmed. I know you've been chatting with him, I know it's been getting steamy, and I know you've met him. Here is where I am on our relationship, where are you.

Then you go from there. If both of you decide you want to make the marriage work, then go for it. Remeber it will be a rocky road. If either of you've decided to opt out, it will also be a rocky road, but that is a given.

As said before, do not confront the guy, he is, in his own way a bystander in this equasion.

Affairs are a choice by the people who have them, and not caused by the spouses in the marriage..no matter what reason the spouse gives.


    Bookmark   February 2, 2007 at 4:25AM
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Popi wrote: "This marriage has been going on for years, you can't just throw in the towel after one unfortunate incident."

Sure can! And would, assuming OP's description accurate.

Understand -- especially from postings here -- that there are lots of different opinions about things like this. For myself, I won't live with a cheater. Mistakes are manageable. Betrayals are unrecoverable. Way beyond "unfortunate incidents" IMHO.

    Bookmark   February 2, 2007 at 11:20AM
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I think we are all making a lot of assumption about the OP's situation. He certainly has a lot of different advice to wade through.

Asolo, I can understand that you are entitled to your opinion, but I guess I try to work out why people do things, and try to understand that, rather that hopping in and being judgemental.

The marriage could be made stronger because of the learning from this incident.


    Bookmark   February 2, 2007 at 9:15PM
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too oldshortslow...by the name you chose, I am wondering if there is a big age difference between you and your wife. Are you tired of trying to keep up with her?

Do you two have children together? If so, are they young and dependent, or grown and out of the house? If you have children living at home, than what you decide to do, and her behavior, both affect more than just each other. It will affect your children (young and old) for years to come. So if you have children, slow down and think this through carefully.

If it were me, I would send the kids to Grandparents for the weekend, and I would sit down with wife (calmly) and tell her that I was aware of her lies and the man she has been seeing and talking to. I personally would not tell her how I found out, or divulge what I knew exactly...other than the other mans name, because you would give away the means you have of checking up on her if you two decide to work through this. If she knows that you are checking up on her via the computer, than if she still chooses to be a cheat, she will find other ways of talking/seeing him, in the future, that do not involve the computer, and you would have no means of knowing if this thing is still going on.

What she needs to be aware of is that she has a choice to make, and to be fully aware that a divorce will hurt her children, and her children will not respect a mom who was unfaithful/cheating on their dad, and broke up their family.

Perhaps you caught this early enough, that it has not gone too far, and can still be turned around, and your marriage and family still come out of this thing intact. I don't know.

But like the others said, know ahead of time what your goal is. If it is to make it through this, and keep your family together, than together I would get the name of a marriage therapist and work through this with a professional. People have done it and worked through these things, and rebuilt marriages that were much stronger than before. And as you already know by the divorce rate, that there are also many others who cannot get past the breach of trust. I think it is knowing your wife and her character. What would drive her to do this? I think you need to do some soul searching. And I am not blaming you in this. But try and look at your relationship honestly. How has your relationship with her been? How do you treat her? Are you loving with her?

Do not gossip about your wife to others, because if you two are able to overcome this, they will treat your wife differently from here on out. Other women (friends) will keep her at arms length...partially because some may now see her as a threat. They know now what she is capable of. (The lies and sneakiness that those involved in affairs do). Family will also be very slow to forgive her, even if you do. So be very careful not to pour your heart out to friends and family. Choose a professional for that.

I wish you well, and am sorry that you...

    Bookmark   February 3, 2007 at 8:43AM
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FYI, my user name is from the name of the basketball league I played in up until just recently.

I confronted her Sunday night. It was eating me alive knowing and I just could not continue ignoring the situation any longer.

Like someone said, something just was not right. I got very suspicious..(sorry for the spelling...public school)

Yes I snooped, AND SO WOULD YOU! and does the end justify the means..... hell ya it does.

She was acting "funny" and her routine changed. Went out and bought a bunch of new clothes, including underwear, colored her hair, and asked me about joining a gym. You have to understand, she has NEVER exersized, not even in high school. The last time she colored her hair was for our oldest daughters wedding 8 years ago. And she usually wears her MOTHERS hand me downs..... What closed the deal for me is when she told me she was meeting a new friend she met at work for Pizza. This is something she has never done. She claims the she suffers from "social anxiety" and is taking meds for it. At the PIZZA place he gave her nipple clips and a vibrator to use during their
late night sessions.

I read in her e-mails the entire account.. as she related the events to her cousin.

After my confronting her, she showed little or no remorse, did not admit that what she did was wrong, and made no offer to reconcile. She said that he was far away and everything was "at a distance" what ever that means. I think that meeting someone at a pizza joint is not "at a distance". She told me he was short, fat, balding and ugly and she would not leave to be with him and he would not leave his situation to be with her.

She said she did not want a divorce. Said that a divorce would make future family get togethers complicated and difficult....duh. and she would be very broke.

Me, I never mentioned divorce, I have too much invested in everything...

I am just taking some time to see what happens... she may figure out that the PC she uses is "bugged" and carry on her activities at work....(that kind of stuff gets people fired). I do know that she has emptied her sent and received e-mail folders, address book, and changed her passwords. (so what... I have printed copies of OVER 700 emails)

So as far as spilling the beans with Mr married man's wife...(he knew he was fooling with a married woman, wife told him).... I have not decided.. I am going to call him first. let him sweat.

some of you had some good advice, and I thank you.. Guess I need to uderstand if my limits have been reached and I can deal with the option I have to select

    Bookmark   February 7, 2007 at 4:45PM
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"....she showed little or no remorse, did not admit that what she did was wrong, and made no offer to reconcile."

Sounds like a self-making decision to me. (The sex-toys were an interesting addition to the mix.)

    Bookmark   February 7, 2007 at 5:18PM
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Wow, interesting update. From a semi-BTDT state, you are very angry and I really have to advise against calling the guy. Why, well you could be teh one getting hurt. WHat if his reaction is the same as hers, or if you then decide to tell his wife, and her reaction is the same as your wife's. Then what. You're looking for revenge, and it's not going to do any good. Sorry (I know, I know but it will feel SOOO GOOD), but it may not, and it will do no good.

Go back to my original post. You now need to decide what you want to do. Are you willing to work on your marriage, is she? You have too much invested...don't knwo what that means, but this inventment may be a bust. You can be the only one to decide. If it means staying for money...well, only you can decide. If you want to live as two singles, then it won't matter if she has affairs will it. If you want to live as man and wife, then you both must work on your marriage, or call it quits.


    Bookmark   February 7, 2007 at 5:45PM
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Women can do strange things around menapause. Is she of that age, perhaps ?

Sorry, just me trying to be fair again, trying to get behind why people do things.


    Bookmark   February 8, 2007 at 12:28AM
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If they are truly meeting in person, you might want to get tested for STDs.

    Bookmark   February 8, 2007 at 1:23PM
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Uh,ok,who is living in the dark ages?

I can see totally how you'd be upset and maybe even a bit vengeful here. I dont see why divorce is not an option for you though.You said you had too much invested.You mean money wise,or was that meant emotional wise?
Really,by the sounds of your post,you dont seem very happy to me at all (with good reason!) Dont you think you deserve to be?

    Bookmark   February 9, 2007 at 3:33AM
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Wow!! I can only imagine the conversations that led up to nipple clips and a vibrator. It must have been awful for you to have to read those Emails.

I know what my husband would do in this situation even after 40 yrs of marriage.

He'd ask (tell) me to move out till I made up my mind about what I wanted and until he decided what his next step would be. He would also arrange for an in-person meeting with me, the guy and the guy's wife so that everyone involved could know exactly what had been going on.

I know he wouldn't let me off the hook so easily, especially if I showed no remorse for this cyber affair. If we were going to work things out he'd need assurance that I wouldn't do this again.

Amazing, her only concern is financial and she never said anything about loving you.

IMHO, the only chance you have is to act like a take charge person instead of letting her call the shots. Without going into a rage, calmly tell her what you have decided to do; don't ask her what she intends to do.

I think you were well within your rights to check up on her. You would have been stupid to have done otherwise.

I hate to tell you but I don't think you have a marriage to save. Sounds like your wife trashed it when she started this mess.

    Bookmark   February 9, 2007 at 8:28PM
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by the way my dark ages comment was not toward Op,but toward marriagebygrace.

    Bookmark   February 13, 2007 at 3:37AM
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here is a new update....

I contacted lover boy...

"If you have any respect for your current and SECOND marriage and the now tenuous relationship with your wife...

I strongly recommend that you immediately and permanently discontinue any and all contact with my wife xxxx..
..no e-mails, no online chats, no phone calls, no faxes, no in person meetings, no purchases of any kind, no cards, no letters, any and all contact through a third party .....nothing......

Believe me when I say.... I will find out about it.

I have copies of hundreds of e-mails that document your activities with my wife, in very explicit detail.

your activities destroyed my marriage, let's see if you are smart enough to preserve your own."

He answered the next day,

"Dear xxxx,
Yours of 2/20 was "trapped" as unknown mail by the email program and not delivered to my in-box. I found it very late overnight on 2/21-22, thus the delay in my reply. I appreciate your direct but restrained comments, as well
as your decision to contact me directly. If I receive any other email from her, I will say that I'm unable to continue writing for personal reasons,and without any reference of your note to me, which I assume to be
preferred. You need not worry about any other contact apart from that. I offer my sincere apologies for any distress caused, as well as my assurance that I will discontinue communication.


Wife moved her activities to her computer at work.. So I guess I will have tell her boss and let her get terminated.

as for me,, I have a new job in New Mexico. "adeos"

    Bookmark   February 22, 2007 at 2:35PM
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Every good wish as you move ahead.

    Bookmark   February 22, 2007 at 2:43PM
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you are taking off for New Mexico, and I take it that she is not going with you. It sounds as if you are leaving her, and yet you told lover boy that you will know if he tries to contact her in any way, or see her in any way. How will you accomplish that if you move away? And also, if you are leaving her, why do you care if she ends up with this cheater?
if they end up together, she can then wonder who he is talking to when he is on the computer late at night, since she knows what he is capable of. How little character he has. Not much of a prize is it?

What happens to your children in this mess she created? Who will help them recover from the pain as their family desolves before their eyes? Who will finish raising them?
If your wife is terminated from her job, how will she support your children, assuming she will have some sort of custody. I imagine that she is going to be kicking herself for what happened to her family a year or so down the road. She is about to find out what a high price her family paid for her solution to marital boredom.

Asolo...in the movie version, we all cheer for the one who stood up for themselves in this situation, and moved on and put together a great new life, leaving the offender. But in real life, where I believe there are children, Dad just dumped mom and left, to begin a new life. He is planning to get mom fired from her job, before he leaves, and I imagine somewhere in all this are children (even if they are adults) who are stunned and in great pain as their family disolves before their eyes. I imagine they may never recover the image of their mother, if they actually ever find out about the "gifts" mom got from her lover. Can you imagine this image in your mind of your mother?

too old short slow, I know you want revenge. I know you want your wife and her lover to hurt the way you hurt. But don't destroy the mother of your children. It is your children who will pay the price, even if they are adults. This will affect them for years to come. Be the bigger person for them. I don't think you will ever regret doing what is right, and taking the high road, even though everything in you wants them to pay somehow. She will have regrets.

    Bookmark   February 22, 2007 at 4:24PM
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OP did not mention children or any other circumstance that would cause me to change my opinion....or my congratulations.

    Bookmark   February 22, 2007 at 4:34PM
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He mentioned that the last time his wife colored her hair was for his oldest daughters wedding. So he has more than one kid, although they may or may not be grown. Even if they are now grown up, it is still very painful to watch your family disolve before your eyes, especially if you have the knowledge that your mom had this sleezy secret life going on, with some married guy she met on the internet. And dad has now bolted, and is starting a new life somewhere. I imagine that this is very hard on his kids. Even though we may want to cheer him on because we think she deserves it, somewhere there are kids who must be blown away by what just happened to their family.

    Bookmark   February 22, 2007 at 5:00PM
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If you choose to make up scenarios (as you so often do) that's your affair. I prefer to confine myself to what the OP said. None of us has any information other than what he provided.

    Bookmark   February 22, 2007 at 5:40PM
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What I don't understand is that it seems like the OP went from not even considering a divorce, to moving to New Mexico! Seems like a big jump... I don't think acting so quickly and so radically when your wounds are so sore is always a good idea. Then again, maybe you move around a lot for your job and/or maybe we are just assuming you are getting a divorce. Maybe you're just taking a break and need some space????

Anyway, doesn't really sound like there are any winners in the scenario to me. I don't think going through a divorce or separation is ever fun for anyone. Not sure congratulations are really in order, but I hope things go as well as can be expected.

    Bookmark   February 22, 2007 at 6:12PM
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Well now, 700 copies of emails. Someone needs a hobby.

First contact "lover boy" threaten him not to talk to your wife or else. Then you don't want a divorce, now you're going to call her job and tattle that she's using her computer at work for personal matters. If you want to move on - New Mexico, whatever, do it. What's the point of the call to her job?

I am starting to wonder about your story. Nipple clips and a vibrator. Did she tell you that (I doubt, unless she's trying to get you riled up), or did you bug her pocketbook or some other possession she had on her at the meeting (more likely IMO).

Hopefully you will put your "computer skills" to good use at your new job.

I don't think you will ever have a successful relationship since you sound like a very controlling paranoid man. The surveillance attitude would be a turn off to any woman, unless of course, she is as paranoid.

to marriagebygrace- are you kidding me???

    Bookmark   February 22, 2007 at 7:00PM
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Don't worry about marriagebygrace. If God spoke to you, would you care what anyone else thought? She's just trying to share the revealed Mind....as they all do....all the time.....and they vote.

    Bookmark   February 22, 2007 at 9:52PM
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Yep, I think surveilance is creepy.

Also, avengence...getting your wife sacked, also nasty.

What sort of person do you want to be ? It catches up with you, you won't be happy.

    Bookmark   February 23, 2007 at 1:51AM
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I think it's a little harsh though...this guy's wife is no saint.Sounds like he had valid reasons for "spying" on her. His intuition was telling him something was wrong and he followed up.Can all you women honestly say if you suspected your husband's were cheating you wouldnt snoop? Come on,honestly?
Getting her fired is taking it a bit far though..exspecially if he isnt intrested in actually staying with her. It is one thing to contact the "other man" and another to be vindictive.

    Bookmark   February 23, 2007 at 2:33AM
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Yes, follow your intuituion. Check the wallet, the phone bill, maybe.

Totally surveilling another human being - no way. What this guy did is sick, I don't care if his wife was swinging from the chandelier with someone else. There are no more divorce by adultry statutes left in any state in the US. There is no reason to copy 700 emails. He knew by the 100th one that she was up to no good.

OP took spying to a whole new level. Actually, I think he got off on it. Now he wants retribution by getting her fired.

What about the children of the marriage? It sounds as if at least one is grown from a previous post regarding the wife dying her hair for an upcoming wedding of the daughter. Even grown childen are affected by this kind of stuff.

This person gives me the creeps.

Also, I have already heard too much from the "marriagebygrace" folks. I don't care what anyone's religious thoughts are, they're private and shouldn't be forced on others. If you read the instructions to this forum, religion is not to be discussed or posted.

I'll now fold up my soap box as I am done with this particular thread.

    Bookmark   February 23, 2007 at 6:59AM
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too-old,sounds like your decisions have been made.

I think you were in control of your emotions in your communication with lover boy and he seems to have gotten the message.

Looks like you and the wife have come to a parting of the ways, as well.
I wouldn't report any suspicious computer activity to her boss; that's going one step too far, IMHO.

Others have mentioned the fallout for your kids if they find out what their mom has been up to. Is that your fault? I think not. Mom should have thought of that before the hanky panky started. There's a price to pay for playing and she's gonna have to pay up for her fun.

    Bookmark   February 23, 2007 at 9:41AM
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asolo...predictable as always with the nasty responses.

By the way, you stated that OP did not mention having children. Re-read his posts. He has kids!

    Bookmark   February 23, 2007 at 9:52AM
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bnbk....Ah..ya got me fair 'n' square. Hoisted on my own petard. Mea culpa.

    Bookmark   February 23, 2007 at 12:09PM
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I agree with Labmomma (ironicly) that religion shouldnt be brought into it. We dont know what OP believes in,so to force those ideas on him doesnt make any sense.
I DO think it's good OP let the "lover" know he isnt going to tolerate any more of this behavior. he also gave him the chance to save his own marriage when he could have just ratted him out to his wife.
I think telling on your wife to her job would be a big mistake.

    Bookmark   February 23, 2007 at 7:10PM
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That just happened to me last week. I should have waited until I had more information but I did not. I called her husband and he called her. I did not get to talk to him at all, just his voice mail. She called me and told me it was over, I helped my husband close down the email he used. We were having some trouble before, but now I just wish I had the nerve to get the divorce. I talked to one yesterday and adultery is not a good cause for divorce and the property is 50/50 so you only have the kids to battle over so dissolution is the way to go. I am so hurt and I cannot trust him at all. I go for counseling friday and hope they can help restore trust or it is over. Think of it this way, she cheats with someone who has aids without protection and even with it and YOU can get it and that leaves your children with no one. Do you want that?

    Bookmark   February 27, 2007 at 2:52PM
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The difference between "divorce" and "dissolution" being what?

Even in states that still require "cause" nobody that wants a divorce fails to get one. They all have plug-in euphemisms that do just fine.

    Bookmark   February 27, 2007 at 4:42PM
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