Electrician want to install 6 Cans with 75BR.HaL/FL by Sunlite

susanlynn2012December 1, 2011

This electrician wants to install 6 cans that are I guess 6" cans since the bulb he will be installing with the cans is a 75 Watt, 120 Volt, 900 Lumen's Halogen Bulb with a 40 degrees flood. The CIR & Light Spectrum is not listed on the bulb package but I think all Halogens have a CRI of 100 and on the Internet it says it is a soft white so it seems to be giving off a 2700K. I would prefer a 3000K light.

So my question is, is this a good bulb? When the bulb dies, what bulbs will fit into the can? Can I used a Par30 or a PAR 38 bulb in the can with no problems so I can find in the future Halogen or LED bulbs that I like the light of? What is the difference between a BR40 bulb and a PAR30 Versus a PAR38 Bulb?

The bulb says "sunlight Reflector 75BR40/HAL/FL Medium Base 75 watt 120 Volt Item 25253 on the package with 900 Lumens.

The electrician will give me a free can over the sink to replace my outdated 21 year old can and install a small fixture in my dining room free if I go with him and this bulb.

Thank you! I will cross post this to the Kitchen Forum.

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I meant that the package says "sunlite Reflector 75BR40/AL/FL Medium Base 75 watt 120VOLT Item: 25253 Halogen 900 Lumens Bulb".

Is a reflector bulb the same as a flood bulb? Says Flood 40 degrees on one of the sides of the box that the electrician left here with me to help me decide what I would want. This is the bulb he installs and if I want another bulb, I would have to buy it but I need to know what bulbs would fit in this fixture or what I should ask or what is a BR40 bulb since I never heard of it.

    Bookmark   December 1, 2011 at 12:00PM
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With energy consciousness sweeping the land, BR40 lamps are on the way out.

So long as the can is not shallow, you will be able to fit a fairly wide selection of bulbs.

    Bookmark   December 1, 2011 at 4:34PM
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Thank you Davidtay for replying and helping. I actually am liking the Ecosmart LED bright white PAR38 3,3000K 850 Lumen's, 75 watt equivalent bulb's white light the best and how cool the light is. I just can't find information on this dimmable bulb's flood spread or if it would work since despite the $49 cost per bulb it lasts 46 years it claims and the light is so nice making my tiles prettier and giving my room a happy glow. Other people have suggested Halogens that are PAR38 and PAR30 that liked that had wide flood spreads and higher color spectrum than the 2700K that I think the BR40 bulb is.

How do I find if the can is shallow? Should I ask the electrician which can he uses? I have someone else coming tonight in 40 minutes to 1 hour 40 minutes to look at my lighting situation.

I did get a quote from an electrician to install 4 Halo H7T hi hates with Led trims (trims not supplied) controlled from a new switch. If the electrican suppiles the LED trims, it would be an additional $85 per hi hate from the $165/each recessed can without the trim or bulb.

The electrician that wants to install the Halogen BR40 bulb says it would be $150 per can with trim and the lightbulb and he would give me a free one to replace the one over the sink and install the small fixture I bought for my dining room for free. He says I need either 5 or 6 in my 10 X 14 kitchen.

I do not see any dimming switch that the other electrician discussed that suggested 4" cans with MR16 bulbs low voltage or line voltage and this would be $175/can and extra for the switch and extra for the dimming feature. He suggests 10 for my kitchen.

Any questions I should ask the electrician who is coming tonight. I did not mean to have so many over but so far I cam confused what to do.

    Bookmark   December 1, 2011 at 6:23PM
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Measure the inside of the can - how far a wooden ruler can go before touching the can.

    Bookmark   December 1, 2011 at 9:27PM
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Thank you davidtay for your help!

    Bookmark   December 1, 2011 at 10:41PM
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You're welcomed. I would suggest that you get another quote. $150 per can (even with the trim & BR40 bulb thrown in) is rather steep. (Unless you're living in a high cost region such as CA)

    Bookmark   December 2, 2011 at 12:49AM
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Davidtay, My other quotes so far are:

$165/per 6" can without the trim and LED Bulb. The installer says I can buy the CREE LED with the trim MYSELF or PAY AN EXTRA $85 for each can for the trim and LED 65 watt bulb. The bill does not mention a dimmer switch. He gave me a formal written quote and was very knowledgeable. He also wanted $175 to install the fixture in the kitchen and take out the big fluorescent light so he would install then only 4 high hats. ( I decided to use the fixture in the dining room instead that only has one 60 watt bulb in it now and the new fixture will take three 100 watt bulbs and the small CFL fit in it.)

Then the other installer wanted $175 per each 4" can with a halogen bulb in it with the dimmer separate and light switch a separate cost. He says I need 10 cans. He then said, I could buy the bulb I want since I am picky but his price still was $175 for each can and I think $50 for the dimmers. He had me write it down and I have filed it away.

I forgot to ask the $150/can if the dimmer switch is included or extra.

I am still waiting back from the knowledgeable electrician from last night.

I live in Northern NJ where everything is so expensive. I also felt it was high but everyone is so much money.

The $150 quote included at no charge removing the fixture in the dining room and replacing it for free and replacing the old can over the sink with a new can BUT he had me write it down and did not give me a formal quote in writing. I just worry that this electrician's cans are not the updated ones with the springs that take any bulb that the installer last night said he would install for me.

    Bookmark   December 2, 2011 at 6:23PM
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Get the costs itemized. Some questions you might want to ask
How much would the can itself cost?
Is the can air tight and rated for direct insulation contact?
Is the can new construction or for retrofit?

How much would the bulb cost?
What is the cost for each of the trim pieces ?
How much additional wire will be installed?
Cost of the recommended dimmer.
Number of additional junction boxes, switch boxes, wire nuts, staples, metal nail protection plates, all cost itemized.
Step by step description of the installation.
Who will patch the Sheetrock? If the electrician says he will do the patching, what are the associated costs - drywall, screws/ nails, joint compound, tape, texturing.

What if you supplied the materials?

Everything can be broken down into easily comprehended items/ steps.

Once that is done, think through the descriptions to see if there are discrepancies/ missing information. If there is something awry or missing, repeat the process of discovery.

That way, you'll know whether you will get your money's worth or not and drastically reduce the chance of surprises.

    Bookmark   December 2, 2011 at 11:32PM
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Thank you Davidtay for the questions I should ask since the answers really matter on which electrician is going to do a quality job and what the real prices are. The prices are so close that it would be good to find out what type of can I would be getting and how it will be wired and who is going to patch the sheetrock.

    Bookmark   December 3, 2011 at 10:15AM
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You might want to check out the Sylvania "UltraHD professional LED" replacement lamps for these fixtures. Their PAR30/60w replacement is dimmable (specific dimmers), uses only 15 watts, has a lumen output of 880, 95 CRI, and have a projected life of 25,000 hours as opposed to 2500 hours for halogen. They also have PAR20 and PAR38 replacements.

There is a useful chart on page 4 of the attached brochure for their line. It shows the radius of the pool of light from various ceiling heights for these lamps. For example, from 8', the 60PAR30 with a 40 degree beam angle would put a 5.8' pool of light, at 27 footcandles in the center of the pool, on the floor.

I'm not a Sylvania rep, nor am I a lighting designer. I used a lighting designer on my current home and she had a similar chart that we used for planning the placement of my recessed cans that were using halogen lighting. I found the process illuminating (pun intended). :) I'm now working on our retirement home so I dug this chart up from Sylvania's site.

I'm guessing these Sylvania LEDs, since they're the professional line, would have to come from either the internet or a lighting specialty store. The chart should be helpful using any manufacturer's specs for LED PAR lamp replacement if you know the lumen output and beam angle, though.

Here is a link that might be useful: Sylvania lumen output chart on page 4

    Bookmark   December 3, 2011 at 1:17PM
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I have tried "white" LED lamps (3000+) and they make people look like cadavers, food look like it has no color and natural wood look bleached. A Philips "soft white" LED (2700) is much better. If you like the colder light be sure to ask the opinion of others before you buy them.

It takes a more expensive deeper recessed fixture to handle a BR40 lamp (halogen replacement for the discontinued super-inefficient R40) because most people don't want to see the bottom of the lamp below the surface of the ceiling. A PAR38 is the halogen PAR equivalent and because of it's flat face it can usually fit in a cheaper shallower fixture without showing the lamp face. They are also available frosted. A lamp should be at least an inch above the ceiling.

I haven't used a 6" recessed fixture since the 70's and replace a lot of them with smaller fixtures when I do a renovation; there are so many better fixtures offered today. The electricians you are talking to are all offering the cheapest cans (probably Halo) without internal reflectors that rely on R/BR/PAR lamps to throw light out of the fixture which was the lighting approach of the 60's. Using those fixtures makes the job cheaper but makes you pay more later for the replacement lamps.

The only advantage of these cheap fixtures is that they work well with retrofit LED lamps (the life of a CFL ballast is cut to half or less in a recessed fixture and the reflector spots don't throw much light out of the fixture) but the LED spots throw a sharply focused beam which can create unpleasantly harsh shadows.

The biggest problem with the more sophisticated recessed fixtures is that the reflectors are designed for specific lamps and the retrofit LED lamps locate the light source in the wrong place for effective use. I guess eventually it will all get worked out.

    Bookmark   December 3, 2011 at 3:11PM
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Hilltop55 & Renovator8, I appreciate your replies so much and the information that you both provided. I printed out the Sylvania Chart and looked up certain bulbs and added them to my Amazon.com cart to show an electrician as well as finding the best price $50 plus $4 shipping since the highest for a PAR38 LED with those great specs was $95 plus shipping and the highest price for the PAR 30 with those great specs was $74 plus shipping. I also found a great Halogen with a 2900K since I seem to like light spectrum's higher than 2830 and not ore than 3500K. I feel I would love light to be in the 2900K to 3000K range with HIGH CRI.

I am waiting for that other electrician to call back but I may call up one since I now have even more information on questions to ask that Davidtay told me and the information on the bulbs and maybe that cheaper electrician's fixtures are too deep since they take the PAR40 bulb.

    Bookmark   December 3, 2011 at 5:08PM
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A reflector lamp can be a halogen reflector BR40 or a halogen parabolic aluminized reflector PAR38, not a PAR40. The number indicates the diameter of the lamp in 8ths of an inch.

Seriously, ask others how they think people look under the cooler LED lamps. Every one sees color differently. These lamps are not flattering and it's too expensive to replace them later. I'm stuck with one three no one in the family will tolerate so they are now in my office; I look terrible in any light.

    Bookmark   December 4, 2011 at 12:49PM
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Renovator8, I meant BR40. I did not like the LED at high light spectrums or the 2700K but I loved the 3,000K color and the bulbs I am looking at have a 95 CRI while the higher color spectrums have less than 80 CRI. Or I can just use the halogens that have higher than 2800K right now with a CRI of 100.

The tile guy just left and will email me a quote. I need to call another electrician up since the other one never sent me a quote and I need the lighting installed ASAP and the tiles installed since it is affecting my work as I have a home office and I can't seem to focus on anything else but my kitchen at this moment which is not good. I like to finish a project when I start it so this is frustrating me as lighting seems to be in transition and the tile guy said he may have problems with my dishwasher if I am not yet buying new cabinets.

    Bookmark   December 4, 2011 at 1:45PM
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Davidtay, I am ready to call the electrician with the questions you asked and also ask him if his can has springs to take various size bulbs since I do not like the BR40 Halogen Bulb he left. I was glad he left it since now I see not all Halogens have light I like.

I am wondering if I should place Halogen Bulbs above with wide floods for now until LED bulbs improve and get cheaper?

    Bookmark   December 4, 2011 at 11:49PM
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Edison 16393 75-Watt 60 degrees Flood PAR30L Halogen Bulb is what I think I should try out and if I like the bulb get until LED's go down in price especially because this has a 60 Watt flood. Would this bulb be too small for a can that a BR40 bulb can fit? What size can should I get to fit this bulb?

Here is a link that might be useful: Edison 16393 75-Watt 60 degrees Flood PAR30L Halogen

    Bookmark   December 5, 2011 at 12:05AM
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You should check with your local utility and county for rebates towards LED lighting.

The trim piece supposed to help with the bulb size.

The integrated trim that comes with LED recessed lamps such as the Cree CR6 and Sylvania RT6 eliminates one item to purchase.

Typically - recessed can + trim + bulb

LED modules like Cree CR6 - recessed can + module.

The trim alone could cost anything between $5 to $20+ per piece.

The can you select should have thermal shutoff and insulation.

It would probably require the E26 (screw in) base socket which will be usable with a wide variety of bulbs. The longevity of the bulb is a separate topic.

    Bookmark   December 5, 2011 at 12:39AM
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Thank you Davidtay for more information. I will check my utility company and county to see if there are rebates towards LED lighting since I really like the light on the 3,000 LED bulb I have here now that is only a 85 CRI. The Sylvania RT6 is nice as it is an all in one but only an 82 CRI but not much worse than the bulb I have here that I like now. But the Sylvania RT6 has almost 200 less lumens. Would it matter since I plan to use 6 in my 10 X 14 kitchen plus one over the sink and I have two halogen PAR20 bulbs now in my range hood.

    Bookmark   December 5, 2011 at 1:41AM
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The RT6 output is diffuse like the Cree CR6. If you're looking to get 35 lumens per sq ft solely from the recessed cans, there will be a shortfall.
10 * 14 * 35 = 4900.
7 * 600 = 4200.

However, when you add UCL (and other light sources), it will be more than adequate.

Under cabinet lighting (UCL) could turn out to be more important and used more often than general lighting.

    Bookmark   December 5, 2011 at 1:25PM
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The Cree CR6 or Ecosmart equivalents (both 6" and 4") are probably better than Sylvania.

    Bookmark   December 5, 2011 at 2:47PM
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