Just wondering whether it's alright to use my old laundry detergent in my new front loading Duet washer. If so, can anyone suggest the ratio (e.g., 1/2 cup old detergent = 1 cup HE detergent)?
I'd advise using an HE detergent. Using the same amount of old detergent will generate too many suds, and using less will result in inferior cleaning performance. HE detergents are designed to lift soils and hold them in suspension in the lesser amounts of water used by high-efficiency front loaders.
You've bought a $1500 washer; you don't want to suffer inferior performance simply because HE detergent costs maybe 40 cents more a box. That's poor economy...not to mention, you usually need less HE detergent in a front-loader than old detergent in a top-loader. HE detergents will likely prove cheaper, plus your clothes will be cleaner.
I'm using up my old detergent in our new Danby. Given that I purchase in bulk and when it's a BOGO, I have a lot. Still, everything is way cleaner than it was previously. I just cut the detergent until I couldn't see many (or any) suds and everything has been A-OK, so far.
One deciding factor in using detergents for front loading washing machines is that they be low sudsing. There is nothing special in American "HE" detergents besides foam suppression agents that makes them any different from other detergents. Excess foaming damages the washer and gives poor laudering results. Even in commercial laundries, one does not see "HE" detergents, just low foaming/easy rinsing ones that are meant for all types of washers.
Both Tide and Wisk HE, Cheer HE, are VERY high sudsing and if one used the dosage given; especially with Tide HE there would be a serious sudsing problem. Of the three I've found Cheer HE liquid to be the least foaming and easily rinsed, but dosages have to be watched carefully. Again all one needs is a low foaming detergent that rinses easily from the laundry. If the detergent is low foaming one can easily add as much as required to suit the laundry load size and soil level.
Have been using plain old Cheer Free and Gentle powder in my front loader without any problems. Have also never seen anyone at a launderette use "HE" detergents, not even the owners when they do "drop off" laundry for their customers. Sears detergent IIRC is not "HE" but works quite well according to posts, as does Fresh Start, FAB,Arm & Hammer and many other low sudsing laundry detergents.
Have used Persil in the past and it is a great detergent, but didn't get my laundry any cleaner or brighter than say Tide HE or any other good American laundry detergent that was low sudsing.
If American detergent makers would go back to the pre-1980's days when many detergents were low sudsing and could be used in all and sundry types of washing machines (wringer, front loaders, twin tubs, and top loading automatics), all this palaver over "HE" detergents would fade. If you notice for all the front loaders being sold in the United States "HE" detergents are hard to find as hen's teeth sometimes. Given the huge potential market one would think there would be shelves bursting with "HE" detergents, but they are not. In fact after the initial hoo-ha most supermarkets stopped carrying many "HE" detergents.
If "HE" detergents are all that wonderful,why then does one not find them in smaller sizes like the rest of many detergent maker's product line? Nor does one find these detergents in small "vendor" size packs for laundromat use, a natural market. My guess is detergent makers are happy to "dupe" people into thinking they need a special detergent for front loaders, rather than just a plain low sudsing one. Same as new mothers are steered towards buying special baby detergent. But like new mothers, many front loader owners soon realise there are other options that are lower priced as well.
Persil in it's original formula worked well with earlier models of euro front loaders that had very long cycle times and customers used hot and boiling hot water settings. Persil now has moved with the times and developed detergents that work in hot, warm, cold water and with short cycle times. Which is pretty much describes the cycles of many American front loaders.
I've used TideHE, WiskHE, and Cheer HE without the sudsing problem you have mentioned. I think it has to to with how soiled your laundry is and what a persons water chemistry is. I have switched to the Sears detergent because it IS he rated and I had gotten tired of paying the High price for a P&G product. However, I will tell you that my second favorite detergent has become Purex--It's very low sudsing and comes in a varity of "flavors" (currently using purex with softener). Even tho Purex does have a "HE" detergent on the shelves here in Florida, I don't buy it as regular Purex works just fine--even at full doses.
I agree with your statement about detergent makers all going low foam. I work in the realestate business and Live in the fastest grown city in the country right now. I have to say that atleast half the new homes being built are installing HE machines. Yet, when I go shopping the choice in HE detergents is extreamly limited. It does make you wonder if sale for HE machines are increasing so well then why aren't the detergent makers keeping up with the times.
1/4 to 1/2 scoop/capful of non-HE detergent should work fine. You will need to experiment, as load dirt and water softness will play a part in how much you need.
I recently purhased the Costco (Kirkland) detergent which says it is suitable for both the HE Front Loading Machines and the regular. I own a Whirlpool Duet Front loader. I use FAR less detergent than the large cup that comes with it, and even far less than the smallest load recommended, and am thus very happy with the results. I use Oxyclean when needed as well, and presoak, but use about 2 TBLs max for either. Shouldn't the manufacturer recommend a far smaller amount for these detergents (ie. Kirkland) than thay do? Also, anyone else have experience with the Kirkland (Costco) detergent? In addition, I ran out of HE liquid detergent for my dark loads. Does anyone else do that, and does it help the darks stay dark...... I have my washer/dryer (Duets) since last November, and couldn't be happier. My husbands work clothes in the Sanitary Cycle actually come out clean! My delicates stay looking new. One of the best purchases we ever made! Thanks for your comments. Carol C.
The mainstay HE detergent I use is Sears HE Ultra Plus, cut with 33% STPP. It works great.
For bath towels I tend to use an HE liquid. So far my favorite is Method HE liquid. It is easily the most low sudsing of all the HE liquids I've tried.
A word of caution on the Kirkland "HE Compatible" detergents. The dosage recommendations on the packaging are wrong - they are backwards. They suggest using more dosage for HE washers than for top loaders, which is the reverse of what it should be. And the formulations are not true HE, they are not particularly low sudsing (they suds more than Tide HE, for example).
Lately I've been eyeing the 40 lb buckets of low sudsing generic detergent at Smart & Final. I am wondering how these would do for me if they were cut with 33% STPP. At about $10 per bucket, it's a real deal. The only thing they probably lack vs. the higher priced HE powders is enzymes, and complex phosphates seem to reduce or eliminate the need for enzymes anyway.
Most modern, electronically controlled front loaders have built-in oversudsing detection features, which will institute corrective measures (such as multiple drains/cold fills) to reduce sudsing to an acceptable level before proceeding. So these are likely to be damaged by the use of excessive amounts of high susding regular detergent. However the laundry load likely will not get as clean as it would if it were washed with lesser amounts of regular detergent, or even better, appropriate amounts of HE detergent.
I believe one exception to this was the ill-fated Calypso. Apparently this did not detect or correct oversudsing sufficiently, and the thick foam could get caught under the nutating plate and cause damage. But the Calypso, as the regulars here are probably already shouting at their screens, wasn't a front loader anyway.
I still don't quite understand why some people are willing to spend $1,000 or more on a modern front loader but try to go on the cheap when it comes to selecting an appropriate detergent.
The excess regular laundry detergent would be put to better use if donated to a needy friend, relative, or charity. One could always simply walk into a local laundromat and gift the excess to some lucky recipient.
Thanks all for your input. It's not that I'm unwilling to spend the extra $$ on new detergent but rather that I want to use Dreft to wash baby clothes. (My regular detergent gave my baby girl rash when used in my old top loader.) I emailed the maker of Dreft and they replied that they don't have any plans to sell an HE version.
Careful with Dreft! It is extremely sudsy in FL's.
Like Cimberly suggests, 2 TABLESPOONS = 1/8 cup of regular Cheer FREE *powder* might wash your daughter's clothes quite well in a front loader while preventing a rash. I've even used 3 Tbl.
If you prefer a liquid, try All Free & Clear. I use the regular stuff, 1/2 of a cap (it's the line midway up the cap) without sudsing problems. In the past, FL-owning parents of little ones have recommended this detergent on this forum.
I don't have kids, but my ex broke out like crazy if his socks were washed in scented detergent. We never had any problem with All Free & Clear liquid, regular, which foams up a lot less in my Fridgemore with my water/laundry soil conditions than does Tide HE.
Dreft can be a real disaster in a FL.
1) not everyone is spending $1000 or more for a washer
2) "he" free detergent is not readily found at many places
the regular detergent without perfumes & dyes & such is the only choice.
We have a front-loader, very hard water. DD2 did a science fair experiement (first place, I might add!) Without going into details, name and off-brand regular detergents at a QUARTER the recommended amount for a regular, top-loading machine worked as well as the recommended amount of special HE detergent for front-loaders. Funny, these machines were designed to use less detergent. The HE formulas' recommended usage is about the same as the non-HE's. HEs are more expensive. Where's the savings there?
She looked at it from a psychological viewpoint, citing the 'Lather, Rinse and Repeat' method of sales-building. Don't want to name the company, but they doubled the sales of their shampoo by adding one word to the directions. "Repeat" Doesn't get the hair any cleaner, but if you follow the directions, you use (and buy) twice as much.
We have a Sears Kenmore front loader and use about 2 T of Purex free and clear per load. I pre-treat when I see something that needs it. Everything clean and I'm happy. Using more of anything needed is wasteful.
Did a "suds" test with the Kirkland HE Compatable, filling a large jar with 2 c hot water, (1/2 of the jar), adding 1/4 tsp of the detergent, shaking it for 10 sec. on the timer. Boy, did it suds up! Took me by surprise, but the suds went down after a few secs. So I did my standard load, added a very small amt. of the detergent, (i use the scoop from my SEARS HE TUB that is used up) and looked inside. Voila! LOTS of suds to my surprise. From what I noticed, SEARS HE is superior. I guess I'll get rid of the what I thought was a good value (that Kirkland HE brand), and go and pick up another tub of SEARS HE Ultra Plus. For now I'll use less, until I take the 40min drive to Sears. Live and learn!
You can run a sudsing test on your detergent. Get a cup of your hottest tap water. Put 1/4 teaspoon of the detergent in it and shake for 20 seconds. Do all this in a quart jar by the way. See how high the suds go, and then see how fast they fall. Compare 2 or 3 different laundry detergents and you'll see differences.
I've tested some regular detergents that were better about sudsing than the HE detergent we use, which is "Our" and "Sun And Earth". We are very happy with these detergents too by the way.
I thought I read somewhere that the regular detergents can break down the seal on HE washer doors, and the HE detergents are gentler. ??? Can anyone validate this??
HE detergent no longer seems to carry a substantial price premium and is available now at most larger supermarkets and places like Target (which carries several brands). You'll get better results. I'd give the old detergent away and take a tax deduction.
The seal which fails in reaction to too many suds is the shaft seal at the rear of the outer tub. (according to many contributions to this forum, to Epinions, and other sources) This allows water and suds to penetrate the rear shaft bearing, contributing to its early (and expensive) failure. This is claimed to occur in the Electrolux-built Frigidaire, General Electric, and Kenmore (FridGEmore) 3.1cft front load machines, and to lesser extent in Maytag tilted-tub front load machines. (the ones without windows in the doors)
Use of non-HE detergent may promote excessive sudsing and accelerate the seal degradation mentioned above.
This is all anecdotal from my point of view, it has not happened to me yet in the 9 weeks I have had my Kenmore 44092.
I have NEVER regularly used HE products. (Though I do use them occasionally, but merely because a particular product for a special situation is also HE. Plus I try everything that comes down the pike as I am a laundry nut.)
Seals are just fine after years and years of use. No bio film build-up or mold problem. No scaling on my heaters, either. Over-sudsing (as opposed to over-dosing) is only a problem with some non-HE products, most often in my experience, liquids. With most "regular wash" liquids (as opposed to special products for silk, down, Gore-tex etc.) I have never been able to get to the sweet spot where I had good cleaning and low-enough-for-good-tumble-action sudsing. But I am sure that out there, there are people who can do exactly that.
But, I use regular, plain jane, national brand powder, and just 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 TABLESPOONS per load at that.
I do between 30-40 loads per week, and have done so since the early 90's. I have more than one machine/brand.
Back then when I first started to use f/ls, there were no easily available HE detergents in the US. At that time, most powders were described on the box whether they were "low suds" or not. I simply experimented until I found a low suds one that also worked well in the water I have at a dosing rate that was appropriate for a f/l and stayed with that.
I think there are some people who must resort to HE because of their water chemistry and/or operator choices. And there are certainly some people who prefer a particular HE product, for excellent reasons of their own. But I seriously doubt if a case can be made that one *must* use only HE or the machines are inevitably going to be damaged; nasty build-ups always created; and clothing poorly washed, rinsed, or wrinkled.
This has not been my experience, which because of the circumstances of my household, is unusually extensive.
IMO, the HE-or-Hell thing is generally salesman's cant or manufacturers trying to weasle out of legitimate warranty issues.
Anyway, that's what I've observed; not after nine weeks, or nine months but after nearly fifteen years of exclusive f/l use.
Wow, Molly, 30-40 loads per week!! Do you run a laundry business!!?!?!?! :-)
I use regular detergent in my Miele (trying to use up my stash) and haven't really seen any suds. I use 1 oz in mainwash (I've used Foca, Ariel & Ecover so far) & 1/2 oz in prewash (any liquid that I have - so far, purex and tide coldwater) and barely see detergent bubbles.
Do you use LCB in your machines, or do you only use oxygen bleaches on your whites?
OMG, Molly, you beat even me for the laundry loads per week!! I do about 25-30 loads a week for a family of 5 - how many do you wash for???
I recommend these HE laundry detergents:
Tide/Gain/Cheer/Wisk/All/Purex/Arm & Hammer/Sears.
I also recommend Amway/Fuller Brush/Shaklee/Persil laundry detergents.
I have been using both HE and non-HE detergents on my Huebsch FL for a few weeks. So far there have been no sud problem in the FL.
1) Kenmore Ultra Plus HE powder - mainly for white
2) Cheers ColorGuard non-HE liquid - for light and dark color
3) Sunlight Ultra Plus non-HE powder - for white and light color.
Laundry washed by the HE powder seems to more stiff than the non-HE powder and liquid.
Still no quite sure it is more white on whites.
Wll keep using non-HE as well as HE for my FL.
Here is a link that might be useful: Detergent for my FL
Back when I made my original post on this topic, I had very soft well water. Since then I have been connected to city water. Which got me to thinking about the water chemistry I had to the water chemistry of the city water. I also started thinking about back in the '80s when I had a Westinghouse frontload washer and the detergents back then which all have dosage recomendations of half of that of a toploader. I will state here that I've alway been one of those that insisted that HE detergents must be used in HE Machines.
What changed this for me was that I looked at my typical loads of laundry and wondered if maybe this wouldn't apply to some of you here.
My job is not very labor intensive that would cause a lot of perspiration or getting my clothes very dirty with grim, dirt, etc. Most of the time clothes are worn once and put in the hamper. Shower every morning and sometimes again before I go to bed (especially after i've been in the pool to get the clorhine off my skin). So, just how much soil could really be in my clothes??
So, as an experiment, I went to the store over the weekend and bought a small 15 load use box of regular Tide. I used the Small white scoop that came with the pail of Sears HE detergent and used it with the Tide. The first load was a load of colored clothes which there was a shirt that had blood stains on from a cut I had gotten from a knife in the kitchen. Blood was gone from the shirt without pretreat or prewash and the load smelled clean. Next load was whites. Both my partner and myself wear white sock around the house without shoes and even walk outside in them. The bottoms get BLACK!!. Used the same white scoop and leveled it with Tide. Added LCB to the bleach compartment, ran this load thur the "whiteest whites" cycle. Sock as white as the day I bought them and the rest of the load clean, fresh smelling. Both loads, no suds problem, checked final rinse water of both loads, clear as a bell. (no liquid fabric softer used on either load).
I guess my whole point to this story is----Given anyones soil level in their clothes and water chemistry, you just have to experiment with what works for you. As I stated in the beginning I use to shout that HE detergents MUST be used in HE Machines. Now, I'm not so sure. I don't belive that it's a matter of cheaping out on detergent but what I do think is that everyone wants the best value for their buck. If I continue to get the same results (cleaning, performance)using regular Tide in my HE3, then buying regular Tide, which here in florida is $8 a box for 40 loads, would actually save me money in the long run as the 40 loads turns in 80 loads for the same price.
In my case, the cost of HE powder is same as non-HE liquid and is about 20% more than the non-HE powder. So the cost per load is not the main concern.
The Kenmore HE powder is apparently more difficult to disslove and would clump easily with cold water. It is not recommended for wool, silk and some other delicate fabrics as stated in its package.
I do like the sears HE powder. Here in florida the water doesn't get that cold so I have not had a problem with clumping in cold water. Doing another load right now of towels, with the regular Tide, full scoop with the sears white scoop, so far, very little suds, will report those results when finished
I don't know if HE detergent is needed for HE washers. I mostly use HE detergents in mine. I had softened water at my old house so I know water chemistry has a lot to do with how much of what you can use. At my last house I did play around some with the detergents. I started with the sears stuff, which I am back to using now. I tried a one load samle of tide cold water, only used half and it was way too sudsy and needed two extra rinses. I used Mexican Ariel, and not the coveted bajaespuma version the regular stuff with excelent results using about one sears scoop per load.
Since I have moved I was using purex HE witch is very low sudsing. I got 2 jugs on sale buy one get free but those are now gone and I'm back the Sear's stuff again. I do not know what the city water I am connected to is like, york water says its not hard but central PA is known for having harder water than other parts of the country. with purex I saw hardly any suds and I see some with the sears.
I do worry about it disolving in the cold water, which is pretty cold in winter but the machine's ATC seems to help with that. those are my ony experances so far.
I do think you can use any detergent you like in an HE washer if you know what you are doing and are willing to do some expermenting to get it right. I think many consumers are not going to spent the time to do that. most want something that will just work proper in the dose the package says so they do not have to think about it.
Well, the towels turned out Great!!!--Very soft (used 1/4 of recommended amount of fabric softner),light scent of the tide mixed with the softner. Think i'm sold here, been getting great results so far using regular Tide at half the recommended dosage.
"Laundry washed by the HE powder seems to more stiff than the non-HE powder and liquid."
I am new to HE powder. But apparently there is some truth in this first observation.
It does also seem that correct dose of non-HE would have the similar cleaning effect as HE in most FL provided that there is no sud problem.
What would you think?
I don't think it's entirely true that the only difference between regular and HE detergents in the USA is the sudsing.
Other difference may include:
1) HE detergents are frequently more concentrated, or "ultra" formulations. This means that powders have less or no filler such as sodium sulfate, which adds nothing to cleaning but just bulks up the product.
2) HE detergents may contain increased amounts of dye transfer inhibitors. Dye transfer is more likely in an HE washer, due to the much smaller water amount in the wash cycle.
3) HE detergents may contain a greater ratio of "breaks", water softeners, and alkalinizers with regard to surfactants than regular detergents. These compounts are important for getting really dirty laundry clean.
4) HE detergents may use a different type of sufactant, lower sudsing than the surfactants used in regular detergents. Not just the same surfactant with addition of foam suppression agents.
I don't know why people so often think "HE" and "low sudsing" are synonyms. For some brands, "HE" is simply more concentrated, and therefore higher-sudsing at the same dose. On the other hand, many fairly mild 'low efficiency' detergents are quite low in suds - Purex comes to mind. - DR
Thanks. Now I learnt more about the HE.
Please note that the non-HE that I use are also considered to be ultra or concentrated although their usage per FL is about double (in ml) than the HE powder.
Apparently,I am not getting the pros of HE when comparing with the non-HE.
Most FL salemen advise against using non-HE in FL for poor washing performance, mold and mildew problem and possibly damaging the washers. Some premature bearing failure of early Frigiedaire FL were blamed by the manufacturers/repairers for using non-HE detergent. I am skeptical that this is completely valid.
From my experience, HE doesn't seem any more concentrated -- it's just less sudsy. The argument against non-HE detergents is that, because they are so sudsy, you have to use such a small amount (1 TSP, sometimes less) that you don't get enough of the detergent goodies into your wash to actually do anything useful. An HE detergent allows you to dose fully (whatever that may be for your particular washer and water conditions) without experience oversudsing.
Having suds in the wash inhibits front-load wash action -- it actually cushions the fabrics and prevents the front-loader from cleaning as well as it should. While this may be desirable for delicates, it's not so desirable for regular soiled loads. This is why manufacturers recommend the use of HE detergents.
I recently switched to ecoVantage (they only have an HE formulation), which gives me no visible suds during the wash at all -- similar to Persil at the same dose -- which allows my washer to work to its fullest potential.
The real tragedy in all of this is that most detergent manufacturers actually add sudsing agents to their formulations for marketing reasons -- they think that people are so dumb that they need to see suds in order to feel the detergent is working. All detergents would be "HE" if not for these unnecessary sudsing agents.
I totally agree.
Is the ecoVantage a earth friendly detergent? I think I've seen it somewhere.... Trader Joe's has some great low to non-sudsing detergents too, if they are in your area.
I think ecoVantage is named to make you think it's earth friendly, but there is nothing on the box indicating such. The only claim that's made is that it is the "only sensitive formula to contain an oxygenated bleach" -- I doubt that's entirely accurate, but that's what they say.
It is a pricey detergent at $30 for a 120 load box, but it has a money-back guarantee and lists the ingredients right on the box.
Please note that I am using 60ml of non-HE powder for FL (while the recommended dose for TL is 100-120ml). So I am using the full-dose for my FL and the washing result is far more satisfactory than that of my old Maytag TL.
Don't think the laundry will be "clean" if 1 TSP(15ml?) of non-HE is used.
The recommended dose of the HE powder for FL is 31 ml and I don't notice the washing result is any better than non-HE powder.
The colour guard non-HE liquid also gives a better results on delicate, light and dark colour than the old TL.
Don't want to try the HE on dark colour because possibly colour fading. Besides, the instruction warns not to use the HE on wool, silk and delicat items.
OK, this is my conslusion.
First of all as I stated in my recent post, I was one of the first to scream "HE detergents MUST be used in an HE mahcine" Since the other day when I question this whole therie I went out and bought "Tide with a touch of Downy". Today I washed the bedsheets and another load of whites. I have an HE3 that I bought 3 yrs ago. For the whites, I selected "Whitest Whites" and added 1/3 cup bleach--results--BEAUTIFAL!!!--Second load--king sized bed sheet. Fitted King, flat King, 2 king pillow cases and 2 standard--results --- BEAUTIFUL!!!---i used the little white scoop that came with the Sears detergent. No suds problem, White socks came out very, very clean. The sheets had a very nice scent and most importantly FELT CLEAN!!!. Again--take the time to experiment. Yes, this means watching the entire cycle, opening the door to check each rinse cycle, and taking into account the amount of soil in your clothes and your particular water chemistry. Up until now I've had well water and even tho it pasted though a filtering system and then into a water softner, it was still crapy water. Now that I'm on city water, this has changed everything. So, just because one thing work for you, may not be the case for the next person.
Your comments work in theory, however, Look at it this way. If there needs to be more soil suspending agents, and anti-dye transfere agents due to the small amount of water in a front loader, then then would have to be doulbled in a toploader as the would be 22 gals, as apposed to 5 gal.
2. as far as consentration--that's already been addressed.
3 "breaks" again i rasie the question "Just how dirty are your clothes" --are you working in a factory, dealing with grim, sute, greas, etc??--I'm not saying that people in these professions are less or not as important--I'm just saying as a whole.
4, Dross made a very good point. People thing "low sudsing and HE" are hand in hand and when in fact they are not.
ok, off my "soap box" so to speak. I'm just saying--keep and open mind. When I was a child and I watched my mother do laundry, and I would read the box, I said to her once when I watched her put 1/2 cup of tide in her washer,(which was a toploader) "Mom, your supose to use a whole up!!" to which she replyed "you can always use less then what they say---they just want you to buy more."
"Your comments work in theory, however, Look at it this way. If there needs to be more soil suspending agents, and anti-dye transfere agents due to the small amount of water in a front loader, then then would have to be doulbled in a toploader as the would be 22 gals, as apposed to 5 gal. "
No, not at all.
The point is that the reduced water volume means that dyes that are released from not-totally-colorfast garments are MORE CONCENTRATED in the lower water volume of an HE machine. Therefore this HIGHER CONCENTRATION of dyes in an HE machine are more likely to transfer to undyed fabrics.
In a TL with 20 gallons of wash water, the released dyes are diluted about four times - therefore they are arguably four times less likely to be transfered to undyed fabrics.
So, in both theory and in practice, an HE machine needs more dye transfer inhibition than a non-HE machine.
"3 "breaks" again i rasie the question "Just how dirty are your clothes" --are you working in a factory, dealing with grim, sute, greas, etc??--I'm not saying that people in these professions are less or not as important--I'm just saying as a whole. "
Actually, I work in a machine shop. But even when I had an office job (previous career), I liked to wrench on cars, ride motorcycles, and work in the garden. All of these activities would produce hard-to-clean stains and soiling on my clothes. It takes a good breaker to remove this soiling from fabrics.
I wear a shop coat most of the time on my current job, which gets a fair amount of water-soluble cutting oil on it, and take it home once a week for washing, along with my work jeans. I have found that for a medium size load it takes 1/2 cup of Sears HE, plus 1/4 cup of extra STPP to break the grime, and the sudsing is still almost non-existent. Clearly not everyone has this kind of job or cleaning challenge, but I'd bet that most families have at least one member that works on mechanical things, or in the garden, and therefore having sufficient break in the laundry detergent is very important. In particular, I've found that garden work clothes tend to need a lot of break, but also they don't suppress sudsing as much as my shop clothes do (probably because the shop clothes have more oil in them). I can't conceive of a regular high-sudsing detergent managing to get either type of load as clean as the combination of HE detergent and extra break as needed.
This argument about non-HE detergents not working/not having the same qualities as HE detergents is getting a bit tiresome.
Have been laundering all and sundry types of clothing in Cheer Free and Gentle powder, with excellent results. My laundry is clean, stains are removed (though for some stains and whites will add oxygen bleach, but would do that with any detergent), and though many times one sees dye/colouring in as the wash and first rinse water drain into the laundry sink, not yet has one single item been discoloured/stained by dye bleeds. This leads one to the conclusion that Cheer which is formulated to not only protect colours, but sequester/block dyes in the water from depositing on laundry is doing it's job. All this with only one tablespoon on average per 5 kilo wash load.
If the premise held true that using so little of a non "HE" detergent deprived one of the maximum potential of said detergent, then darkly coloured as some wash water is, dyes would deposit on other items. So far this has NOT happened even when laundering at 40C and 60C.
Regular Persil is about as concentrated as "ultra" Tide (which pretty much is all versions of Tide these days, and that is the way all powdered versions are sold), yet many routinely state in this forum they only use 1-2 tablespoons in their front loaders.
There is nothing magical about what American detergent makers are selling as "HE" detergent, only the fact sudsing agents have been removed, and in some cases foam surpression agents added. Proof if this is how easily it is to cause major over sudsing if using too much of any "HE" detergent offered by the major brand names.
With front loaders gaining market share in the United States, it would logically follow detergents designed especially for use in such machines would gain also in market share. This has simply not happened; with the exception of Tide and Wisk HE offerings, one usually has to travel far and wide to find others. From this the locial conclusion must be people are using normal detergents in their front loaders, and are happy with the results.
Once again, as I have stated before, if "HE" detergents such as Tide are so wonderful for front loaders,why does P&G or anyone else bother to market such detergents in vend sizes for laundromats? Given such a captive market, and potential for huge mark ups, one would think P&G would have done so by now, but they haven't.
Will grant you that new models of front loaders sold in the United States are getting so stingy with water, that finding a detergent that is clean rinsing is a must. It does not follow that such a detergent must be HE, as clean rinisng is great for top loading laundry as well.
"takes 1/2 cup of Sears HE"
1/2 cup = 227ml.
It is about 7 times of my HE usage (30ml).
"use 1-2 tablespoons in their front loaders"
1-2 tablespoon = 15-30 ml.
It is less than half of my non-HE usage (60ml)
I'm impressed by the statements of some who pretend to know the exact ingredients of all detergents based on their personal/anectdotal usage, or by perfusing MSDS documentation (which is not the same as a full ingredient list), simple speculation about marketing strategies, or regional availability.
I'm surprised some people are able to fit their heads inside their laundry rooms at all! :-)
All I was trying to do was to get people to "see things from a diffennt point of view" (as the song goes)
If i have offened anyone I sincerely apologizie. I find it interesting that everyone takes things so personaly here.
I will think twice before posting again!!
I appreciated your post. Don't be offended, some people don't come across as tolerable as others. Keep posting! =)
Hey Sudsmaster, that was rude and uncalled for I think.
Laundryman, i appreciated your post and have thought along similar lines myself. I use HE detergents because of the sudsing and therefore better overall wash action. I don't believe they are any more concentrated than non-HE -- just look at the dosing instructions and the fact that off-the-shelf HE detergents say "can also be used in non-HE machines".
It's all the same.
Nothing in your post offended me, I wasn't responding to it, and I apologize if anything in mine offended you.
Where did I say that HE detergents were "more concentrated"?
That is a non-issue.
Possibly he was thinking of my statement that 'For some brands, "HE" is simply more concentrated' (emphasis added). - DR
I have read all your post's and am getting my first set of whirlpools duet today but my wife being the penny pincher has alot of non HE sored up so i think if i get all ur points straight i need to start by gutting the regular amount in half, and try it. i also wondered if the clothes would still get clean, b ut in reality the Tl's use around 45 gallons a load and the new FL;s use around 15 so in that theory the NOn HE will be more concentrated right the he detergent is more likely less concentrated to acomadate the water usuage differnce, in my opinon, as stated i'm new to this HE, in fact my wife doesnt even know there being delivered today.
NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO!
How many times do you need to hear it. NEVER use regular detergent in a front load washer. I asked my repair tech. The manufacturers are getting to the point where if they find out you've been using regular detergent it WILL VOID YOUR WARRANTY!
The foam and agents cause pump problems.
So NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO. NO! Don't use regular detergents.
You are a brave man to purchase a FL w/o asking your wife, first. Changing detergents may be the least of your problems!
The new machines will do a wonderful job, but sometimes the changeover will take a little getting used to. Perhaps you should ask your wife to visit here and get any help she needs to make the changeover smoothly.
I adore my FLS and have used them for many, many, years but they did change my laundry routine.
Now regarding the HE/non-HE dilemma. I disagree with the notion that only HA can be used FLS. Whether HE or not, you do have to use a low-sudsing detergent. Most HE detergents are lower suds, but also some "regular ones" are low suding as well. And of course your individual water chemistry will also have a big impact.
To smooth the transition you could do one of two things: cut down your regular detergent by at least half or begin with an HE product. It's a question of whether you want to deal with the mechanical changes or the aesthetic (smell, mostly) changes, first.
When I started with my first FL (in the early 90's), I was a die-hard liquid ERA detergent user. Alas, I had to give it up as I could never (at any dosing rate) get it to perform adequately. However, once I got over that, I found I was so pleased with the cleaning of the my new FL that I was happy.
I am one of the people who never uses HE products in my FL. I use an ordinary, big brand powder and only about 2 TABLESPOONS per load. I have none of the problems from oversuds, bio-film, smell, heater scale or any other downside that the scaremongers want you believe are inevitable. Your mileage may vary, of course.
But, most importantly, please invite your wife to come here if she needs some support as she changes her washing routine.
Like Molly, I've been using non-HE detergents (and some HEs as well) in my FL for YEARS, with no problems. And I have one of the FridGEmores that, for some folks, have run into problems with their bearings due to OVERSUDSING (this is not necessarily due to use of regular detergents).
Both the owner's manual and video that came with my machine indicated that smaller amounts of regular detergent would work fine in my FL.
I have no idea what the owner's manual and warranty terms are for your washer -- so be sure and check them. I, however, think a requirement for HE detergents is a marketing ploy egged on by HE detergent makers and in most cases, a CYA clause inserted by the lawyers. And frankly, most washer manufacturers probably want to "make it easy" for Americans -- just buy the HE detergent, plop it by the scoopful or capful into your FL machine, and you'll be fine, no thinking involved.
Many laundryphiles here on this forum, however, have decided to apply a little brainpower and figure out what works best for them as far as detergents and dosing goes. Everyone's mileage varies because of their water chemistry, the types and amounts of laundry they do, and their particular machine.
The key, as others have pointed out, is to avoid oversudsing. It is weird at first to wash clothes with little or no suds (and a very small amount of detergent) and have them come out so much cleaner than they would from a TL with lots of suds.
I ended up giving away all my regular (non-HE) *liquids* because they were waaaay too sudsy to use even in small doses in my FL. The sole exception, for me, is All Free & Clear liquid, which is very low sudsing (see my post above).
I'm still using a stash of regular Tide *powder* in 2 Tablespoon increments. My clothes have never been cleaner -- although I admit I don't regularly face greasy laundry like Fordtech and others.
You can search on "Tide coldwater" here -- many people have used this regular *powder* in their FLs with great success.
I personally find the surprise delivery of the Duets for your wife to be very sweet. Just one woman laundryphile's opinon.
We just got a new combo Whirlpool CABRIO washer and dryer and the washer manual also specify that we should only use an HE detergent. The washer is a Top-Load type and they still insist using the HE detergent. Based on everyones input, we decided to consumed all our left-over non-HE detergents first by using half the required amount per load. It's the latest Top-Load model by Whirlpool with a 7 cuft capacity that's why bought it so we can wash our comforters.
This article refers to FLs but the same thing could be said for HE TLs. It will give you an idea WHY special detergents are recommended.
Make sure your warranty isn't void if you use regular detergent. Instead of using your detergent up yourself, you could always donate it to your local food bank. Most LOVE to get donations like that... they package it into single load size (powder into ziploc bags, liquid into small 'butter' containers) You wouldn't feel guilty about wasting detergent that way and you would be helping someone not as fortunate as yourself!
Here is a link that might be useful: Why Front Load Washers Need HE Detergent
I've re-read this thread again after having had my FL (basic FridGEmore) for a few months now. I went out and bought all HE detergent and have been using that but it's just not cutting it with my kids filthy dirty grass stained jeans. So I decided to get out my leftover Ariel from my TL and use that in the new FL'er. It was a load of towels and jeans stained with grass. Normally this load is very sudsy no matter what detergent I use. I threw in the same amount of Ariel as I would my HE detergent. I was very surprised to see that it sudsed very little and was comparable to my Tide HE powder. The difference was how clean the stained play clothes came compared to using Tide or Gain. I read the label on the Ariel and among other indredients it said it contains suds surpressors. So after all this HE experimenting around, it looks like I'm going back to Ariel.
I think I have mentioned it before on another thread,but I believe that Ariel (like Persil and other European brands) is essentially an HE detergent. Traditional TLs don't exist in Europe and all the detergents, no matter how cheap, are formulated for FLs. They don't use the HE label there because there is no need to. The only European TLs are H-axis machines and are basically as water and energy efficient as FLs. I believe that even the Ariel for foreign markets is absolutely appropriate for FLs. You can't compare that to other traditional detergents made for TLs.
I use Ariel in my FL from time to time. I order it from the UK. It is a low suds detergent and just like the previous poster mentioned Low suds is all that is sold in Europe. cleans great and I find that for me it rinses better than Tide HE and it is made by the same company that sells Tide to the U.S.A
Let's make sure we're talking about the same product (Ariel) before we make blanket statements about certain brand name detergents.
It sounds like the Ariel that Tracey mentions is either the Mexican Ariel (in a bag - imported from Mexico), or the US version of Ariel (used to be sold in a box - resembled Tide with Bleach in consistency). Unless she lives in a large city where she can find imported products from the UK, or unless she orders them online - then I doubt she is referring to UK Ariel.
Ariel is not the same product world-wide. Top Loaders are more common in Mexico as well as frequent hand-washing of all of the family's laundry. As a result, Mexican Ariel is meant to be a more high-sudsing detergent. Mexican Ariel also contains STPP (well, until the recent reformulation). It sounds like the version that Looser is referring to is the European version of Ariel - which is made specifically for automatics (or European FL machines).
Therefore, one cannot make a blanket statement and say that "Ariel (like Persil and other European brands) is essentially an HE detergent" as it is certainly not. Mexican Ariel does work very well in FL's, however, when used in decreased dosages. Ariel even makes an HE product in Mexico, which is called Ariel Bajaespuma (low-foam). This product is very hard to find in the US, however.
I should have clarified which Ariel I was referring to; it was the Mexican Ariel OxiAzul. This is the only Ariel I have access to locally. I'd love to try the Baja Espuma, but I've checked three local Mexican groceries and none of them carry it. I was not aware that it no longer contains phosphates, though. It really does clean better than any other American (regular OR HE) detergent that I've tried. I wish Procter and Gamble would put whatever ingredients the Ariel contains into an American detergent.
I was very disappointed to see that the new formulation of Ariel no longer has phosphates. It sounds like you have the old formulation (the blue powder) from your old stash. I think the new formulation looks kind of like Tide w/ Bleach (so I've heard), but I've not purchased any to find out for sure.
I do have the blue powder, but I just bought it the other day. Here are the ingredients:
Sodium Dodecylbenzene sulphonate
Are any of these phosphates? (it's been a long time since college chemistry :)
I looked at some of my older bags of Ariel, and they actually list Sodium Tripolyphosphate on the label. I think the newer bags (before the recent reformulation) just list "water softener". If I remember correctly, the "water softener" they list is still STPP.
After reading this thread today, I was motivated to break out some old Cheer Powder and wash a load of darks with 1/4 cup Cheer powder, and 3/4 TBSP of STPP in my LG Steam Washer. Sudsing was not bad at all, and the final rinse was clear!
I had to replace the front panel on my LG front loader because the vibration caused the painted finish to crack on the lower edge. The reason I mention that is because the replacement panel came with a warning sticker in three languages. The original panel carried no such warning sticker.
Basically in English, Spanish and French it said
"HE detergent only must be used in this washer."
Evidently LG has had too many people ignoring their recommendation and this resulted in main bearing failure.
Do NOT be one of the priviledged few who have to pay for a repair that could have been prevented.
"Evidently LG has had too many people ignoring their recommendation and this resulted in main bearing failure.
LOL That's a pretty wild speculation!!
I assure you I did not make the statement in haste. On Tom Martino's Troubleshooter Show here in Denver, he had a reliable technician who said he has seen many different brands of front loaders experience main bearing failure due to the use of non-HE detergent.
The extra sudsing causes the bearing to fail.
I trust his conclusion, as he had no hidden agenda. He just works on the various machines.
Here is a link that demonstrates that very problem.
Here is a link that might be useful: Non-He detergent
I like the way they kick you over to brand-specific site for the "best" HE detergents. Shaklee came up for me. Maybe they rotate.
Way to prostitute the otherwise-useful info! Don't know if they're trying to help people or sell soap!
I won't waste the time to go to the link. Why bother? Suds continually contacting the bearings can damage them, that much is true. However, it's flat-out foolhardy to think that suds only comes from non-HE detergents! Many HE machines have suds sensors on them. Why would they if HE detergents solve all of these problems?
Oversudsing doesn't cause the main bearing failure. Pilot error does. When you don't learn to not overdose the load you'll get too many suds with virtually everything.
This business that the world will implode by using regular detergent in HE machines is laughable.
I had a lot of regular detergent stocked up when I got my HE machine. The opened stuff I used up washing things around the house. The unopened stuff? I donated it all to charity and went out and bought the HE detergent. Pinching pennies is fine, but if you use a reg detergent in an expensive HE machine, violate the warranty, and it breaks. Well that pinching pennies just got real expensive, didn't it?
I have just switched to the Charlie's Soap Laundry Powder. This stuff is awesome, and it can be used in HE or regular washers, so it won't violate the warranty. On top of that if you buy in bulk, it really does only cost pennies per load.
Just an FYI, using non-HE detergent in your HE washer will void the manufacturer's warranty.
Well I'd like to say from years of experience w/FL in Europe and USA I used HE non HE or 1/2 and 1/2 mixed ,liquid and powder w/ no problems at all. I think it depends on water hardness, chemistry, and dirt in your clothes. It is morelike try and see and adjust. I was told that some of the cheaper detergents don't suds up much. I used Sun Arm & hammer all the way to Persil. The worst case for me was that I had to add couple extra rinses but I never had washer full of suds or suds coming through the door like in dishwasher when I put CS in-now that was funny.
Once I added up couple of drops of liquid anti suds for carpet cleaning too, that was long time ago I was affraid I'll have suds but from that time I just adjusted dosing. Normally I would use 1/2 HE and 1/2 non HE and I was fine.
It's now 4.5 years from the original post & 1.5 years from the last post...
I just tried Tide 2x liquid at 1/3 the smallest amount in my brand new FL washer...suds galore! I guess I'll be giving away all the detergent I've bought on sale recently (b/f our old TL died and forced us to buy a new machine)
On the bright side, it died just in time for the various rebates. So, assuming we got in b/f the $$$ ran out in MD, I got 30% at Sears + $100 off coupon b/c we had Sears attempt to repair our old machine + $100 from the Federal Gov't + $75 off from our power company....so $1249 regular price for $600!
Oh, and even in my old TL I never used more than the #1 line for even large loads...got that tip from a repair person. A bottle of detergent washed a lot more loads than I suspect the companies wanted it to!
We have had a few different FL machines in the last 15 years. I have used regular Tide, starting with just a TBSP of detergent and working up to a level where there was no smelly wash. I add vinegar to the bleach dispenser. This takes care of the excess suds. This is what our repairman said to do after using too much detergent. He said that was the cause of most of the problems with front loaders.
I have recently purchased a Kenmore duet second hand and decided to use my regular detergent. I make my own....the recipe with water, washing soda, borax, and a bar of soap. This is a no/low sudsing detergent....and really cheap...a couple of cents per load.
Do you know your water hardness and overall quality? Using soap in even moderately hard water will cause "soap scum" buildup inside your machine. Within a few months you'll have smelly clothes and will wonder why your machine smells like mildew. Please don't formulate your own soaps and detergents unless you really know what you're doing and understand your water quality and how to compensate for that with your ingredients.
For instance, most of the ingredients in your formula are precipitating water softeners. What that means is any calcium carbonate in your water will form a hard residue around heating elements, washer parts, and also settle back onto your clothes which will make them stiff and scratchy.
I wish you luck and I hope I don't see you back here in a few months with a smelly washer problem.
I have had a Miele for about 7 or 8 years now, and I use Persil regularly, but I have to order it online and when i run out, I use regular Cheer, just in very small amounts, like about 1 tablespoon. As someone else said, I titrate to clean clothes and no suds.
I read somewhere once years ago, "of course they supply you with a measuring dvice with a fill line, they are the ones selling you the detergent!"
Getting us to use more detergent doesn't make sense from a marketing standpoint. These detergent companies are trying to sell us on number of loads, so the more loads they say you can do per box, the lower the cost per load and the better the product sells. If your hypothesis were correct, we would have manufacturers racing to REDUCE the number of loads per box, not increase it.
We are researching the LG WM3360HVCA front loading washer. We understand the part about using only HE detergent, however, will the detergent need to be added for every load? Or, will one addition do more than one load. thanks.
Please excuse me for saying this, but "you ARE kidding, right?"
Have you never done laundry before? Of course you have to add detergent to every load! Is this your first time? LOL
food for thought, top load/front load both have bearings, both have seals, both hold x amount of detergent and water both rotate back and forth....now with that said
the pump found in most front load machines can be found in top load machines as well. they may be different shape they may bolt on differently but bottom line.. they both operate the same and are made of the same guts....as for the bearings, both top and front load machines have the same type of bearings and seals and many with exact part numbers....
my point to all this is.. your tech is going to tell you don't do this and don't do that because it is his job and if he does not do his job he will get fired.....Hello!!!!
Use your heads.....
now.. * detergent is detergent......FALSE!!!!
* you can use reg. detergent in front loader... TRUE
depending on amount used and type of water you have you just have to do a little trial and error untill find out what ratio of soap to use, some detergents have little to no suds and work very well
now for my final rant.....COST OF REPAIR !!!!
500.00 to 800.00 to replace bearings in a washer.....complete ripoff typical set of bearings and seal can be purchased for $50.00 and as far as the repair work.. 1-2 hours labor at most on a bad day
so use your heads, do some research, and don't take your techs word on every thing, even if hes a nice guy!!!!
so there it is people, my rant for the month lol
I've always wondered about this for my water hardness. I've had my Duet for seven years and I started with HE powder because I happened to have Sears big bucket that said HE on it, so I wasn't one of those who had a huge stock of regular non he detergent that needed to be used up.....SO, I've never used non HE in my washer. That being said, I've NEVER seen the FIRST SUD or Bubble, yet others who use HE detergent do see some suds, probably due to really soft water. I suspect that with my moderately (I think?) hard water there would be little suds at all if I used regular powder..But.......I'm not going to try it
And how much extra for new drum if needed like in my case?
I am thinking about getting another 5 years extended warranty bc I'm affraid I can't do it, my bf can't do it.
What about all the electronics that can go bad? How much that cost?
The little washer I know how to put water pump in but the big machine looks more comlicated bc of the direct drive and all the electronics.
I've been doing a ton of research on the front loaders.
FWIW, that *all* have problems with failure of the "main bearing" because of the design of the machines. Set of bearings at rear has to carry 10-12 lb of clothes spinning at 1,200 rpm.
Bearings are similar in size & capacity to what you find on front wheels of your car.
But car tires don't spin at 1,200 rpm... unless you regularly travel at 200mph... and the tires are balanced to within 1/2 an ounce. Think clothes in spin-cycle in the washer balanced that well?
Designers decided for whatever reason not to put a set of support bearings at FRONT of spinning basket.
Design defect. Or maybe you're old enough to remember the term "Planned Obsolescence"??
Here is a link that might be useful: Planned Obsolescence -Link
Many bearings in front load machines fail due to seals leaking water into the bearing and washing out the lubricant and causing them to fail. Many European machines spin a lot faster than 1200 and last for ages.