Blower Delay

micro368December 26, 2013

I purchased this home in august this is my first ever experience being around a heat pump. The outside unit was dead when I purchased the home. It was replaced with a Payne condenser unit. (4 ton) The air handler is a goodman (ar48-1). The issue I am having is that outside unit will come but the air handler will take over 10 mins to engage. Well by that time the temperature has dropped 2-3 degrees. Then once the fan engages it will run to try meet the set point. When its in the upper 20's this will cause the aux to engage.
I can tell the blower relay has been replaced at one time. What can I do to fix this issue. It is running so inefficient to me?

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klem1

The fan is either wired as if the system were cool only condenser and resistant/gas heat , or possibly the fan relay is bad. Carfuly study schematics to find correct way to wire. Test relay with a volt meter to locate open circuit across rely.
If troubleshooting isn't in your wheelhose,try running emergency heat or fan on until a repairman can get to it.

    Bookmark   December 26, 2013 at 11:43AM
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micro368

When I go to turn the fan to ON it takes it almost a hour for it to finally come constantly.

    Bookmark   December 26, 2013 at 12:01PM
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SpecialtyAirInc

I think there is mechanical fault with the fan otherwise it should not take that long. The relay seems to be the cause, but are you sure, there is nothing that can possibly jam the fan from working?

    Bookmark   December 26, 2013 at 3:16PM
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micro368

It spins freely by hand so I don't think there is a jam. I give it a good spin and it will go for a while. When the fan does kick on it works fine. Just not coming on when it should be. I have a ecobee smart si thermostat it will show that fan is on (icon) but it's not until 10 mins of condenser unit running. I have the same issues with it in cooling mode. Should I order a new fan blower relay and see if it solves the issue?

    Bookmark   December 26, 2013 at 3:41PM
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mike_home

The fact that the motor eventually starts up would lead me to think it is more likely a run capacitor issue than a relay. I would try replacing the capacitor first.

It is also possible you may have to replace the motor.

    Bookmark   December 26, 2013 at 4:08PM
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micro368

Ill try that first. I know the previous owners didn't believe in changing air filters or maintenance in general. The filters had at least a half inch of crud on them and same with blower wheel. I removed the blower wheel when I moved and cleaned each blade of it fully. So ill try the capacitor first and then report back if the issue still occurs. Thank you everyone for quick responses.

    Bookmark   December 26, 2013 at 4:28PM
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klem1

micro,are you willing to spend $10 on a meter and learn how to diagnois the poblem if I give you pointers?

    Bookmark   December 26, 2013 at 7:07PM
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micro368

I own a meter and yes I will take the pointers of how to diagnose this issuse.

    Bookmark   December 26, 2013 at 11:05PM
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klem1

Consider ALL wires to be hot and I assure you can not be shocked or cause a short while fingers hold plastic probe handles and nothing touches wire but meter probes and each probe touches a single wire at a time. May as well turn power off while identifying wires below.
Determine if the motor is 230v or 115v. Look for tag on furnace or motor. We will use 115 here so if yours is 230 and you can't adapt these instructions,let me know. Normaly 115 wires are, white = commowon , balck = high , yellow=medium , blue=medium low , red=low. If it uses a cap, 1 brown and 1 brown w/white strip is for cap.
Start at the motor and trace ALL wires to thier termination. If it has a cap,make sure both wires are connected. 1 or more speed wires and occasionaly 1 brown are taped off and not used. Restore power,set t-stat calling for heat. Look around blower cover door for a switch that must be held on by door and clamp/tape it in the on position if there is a switch. Either probe touches WHITE wire and other probe touches a speed wire. If 2 speed wires are used,alternate between them with probe. If you read 115v on either speed but blower is not running and motor doesn't use a cap,the motor is bad or there is a break in a wire. If there is a cap,turn power off again in preperation for testing cap. With power off,short between the 2 cap terminals then label and remove wires from cap. Set your meter to the highest resistance/ ohm and momentarly touch probes to make sure battery is good and meter reads full scale. Hold either probe on either cap terminal and other probe on other terminal. At the instant you make contact with last probe,watch meter closly for a reading that jumps up then falls back to no reading. Reverse the probes 2 or three times looking for the momentary reading. No reading or reading that doesn't jump and fall says bad cap. A reading that jumps and falls doesn't guarantee a good cap but gives you 95% assurance it is good or good enough to run the motor at reduced effeciey.
We will test relay after you finish this.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2013 at 12:23PM
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micro368

Blower motor: 230volts single stage.
Wire colors:purple, red, black
Has a capacitor with 2 brown wires
Zero voltage reading until the fan comes on then it goes to 244 volts when running.

Capacitor test:
Got a reading of .231 then drops very fast.

Red wire from the blower motor goes to the top then I'm goes into a piece of clear plastic with a piece of metal in it that says 250amp on it. This some sort of fuse?

    Bookmark   December 27, 2013 at 2:33PM
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klem1

Consider ALL wires to be hot and I assure you can not be shocked or cause a short while fingers hold plastic probe handles and nothing touches wire but meter probes and each probe touches a single wire at a time. May as well turn power off while identifying wires below.
Determine if the motor is 230v or 115v. Look for tag on furnace or motor. We will use 115 here so if yours is 230 and you can't adapt these instructions,let me know. Normaly 115 wires are, white = commowon , balck = high , yellow=medium , blue=medium low , red=low. If it uses a cap, 1 brown and 1 brown w/white strip is for cap.
Start at the motor and trace ALL wires to thier termination. If it has a cap,make sure both wires are connected. 1 or more speed wires and occasionaly 1 brown are taped off and not used. Restore power,set t-stat calling for heat. Look around blower cover door for a switch that must be held on by door and clamp/tape it in the on position if there is a switch. Either probe touches WHITE wire and other probe touches a speed wire. If 2 speed wires are used,alternate between them with probe. If you read 115v on either speed but blower is not running and motor doesn't use a cap,the motor is bad or there is a break in a wire. If there is a cap,turn power off again in preperation for testing cap. With power off,short between the 2 cap terminals then label and remove wires from cap. Set your meter to the highest resistance/ ohm and momentarly touch probes to make sure battery is good and meter reads full scale. Hold either probe on either cap terminal and other probe on other terminal. At the instant you make contact with last probe,watch meter closly for a reading that jumps up then falls back to no reading. Reverse the probes 2 or three times looking for the momentary reading. No reading or reading that doesn't jump and fall says bad cap. A reading that jumps and falls doesn't guarantee a good cap but gives you 95% assurance it is good or good enough to run the motor at reduced effeciey.
We will test relay after you finish this.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2013 at 7:48PM
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klem1

The motor sounds to be good so the problem is with the relay,t-stat or loose connection.
The part marked "250 amp" is not a fuse. 250 amp is what it is rated to carry without damage. We will assume the red (low speed) wire is unused and what you are seeing is simply where it has been capped off.
Purple motor wire is likly hot all the time and would read 120volts between it and metal parts on furnace so keep that in mind while inside the furnace. Black is controled by a relay and it's possible black and purple are both controled by a relay. With 240v power on and t-stat calling for heat,test relay for 24v siginal. Caution,look closly at relay to determine which are the two 24v terminals because if you test between 24v and 240v treminal,the t-stat can be damaged. If you have 24v at relay for more than 3 minutes without fan coming on the relay is bad. If you have no 24v after 3 minutes,the t-stat or 24v wire is at fault. In the absence of 24v,check all connections at t-stat and wire splices. I am still suspicus the t-stat doesn't make on 1st stage(heat pump) so be sure to push t-stat to max temp while testing. If blower ingages after 2 or 3 minutes calling for max temp, that pretty much tells us the t-stat is bad. You said 1 hour delay while trying to get heat but 10 minutes while trying for continues fan. That makes no sense in identifying the problem other than no 1st stage. The capictor has several unexplainable dents. If that is an oily substance on top of the cap where it appears black in picture, buy a new capictor eventhough that is probly not the problem.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2013 at 10:47PM
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micro368

I am getting 26v at the relay for greater than 3 mins.

I am going to order relay and fan capacitor if you think that should be my next move?

    Bookmark   December 28, 2013 at 1:10PM
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klem1

"I am getting 26v at the relay for greater than 3 mins." ( And i assume fan hasn't come on) Definatly a bad relay UNLESS, someone has monkyed with the wireing in the passed. I mention this only because it's unusual for a bad relay to make after delay. There is a test to confirm bad relay. It's quite simple if you only have two 24v and two 240v wires( 1 240v is hot 24/7 and the other one leading to motor is energized through relay) on the relay AND the red wire is capped off and unused. If all that is true,it's 99% certain relay is bad if no fan after 3 minutes 24v applied. Putting a meter lead on each 240v relay terminal will read 240v meaning power is there but not passing through relay. If there is more than 4 wires total on relay,comfirmation is much more complex because of need to identify all wires.
With all that said,a new relay and capictor has good odds of taking care of it. If that do'es the trick,don't throw the old parts away and do not open the capictor. There is something to be learned from the old parts. Do not cut the old cap open and if that is oil on it,put it in a plastic bag and wash hands afterwards.
To spare you asking if you were raped on price,the cap retails for $10 and the relay $15. Many wholesale houses don't like selling to homeowners at any price so label all wires,remove parts , take them with you and be nice.

This post was edited by klem1 on Sat, Dec 28, 13 at 19:41

    Bookmark   December 28, 2013 at 7:20PM
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micro368

Klem1,
Sorry for the delay in response I had to order the parts offline due to my busy work schedule last couple weeks. I just got done throwing the parts in the air handler. Went to fire it up and it runs like a champ now. Thank you SO very much for your detailed explications and teaching me something about my HVAC unit.

    Bookmark   January 2, 2014 at 5:06PM
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klem1

Good to hear you are up and running. You are SO very welcome.
Ok with that out of the way,here is the extra tips I promised regarding old parts. Older capacitors contained PCBs which can be obsorbed through the skin and cause terrible health problems. It is rare to incounter a cap containing PCBs but one should be aware when dealing with old equipment. If it is PCB free,it normaly says so on the case.
If it doesn't say "PCB FREE" treat it as containing them if the case is leaking oil.
Now a fun fact. Bust the housing on the relay and examine the inside. You will note a burnt contact which is responsible for the failure. I just thought the visuale might interest you and help demistify the bad relay. Have yourself a fine 2014.

    Bookmark   January 2, 2014 at 10:18PM
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