How high is this Trane quote?

VaandjayDecember 24, 2010

I'd like a reality check before I sign the paper. I think it's pretty high considering the equipment but I don't have much choice time-wise because we need this to get done next week at the latest. We're in the DC area.

If the bid seems ridiculous, I could call more bidders. I've had 5 already. The other 4: Home Depot was high, another never came to the house, a third offered only the highest and lowest priced systems, and a fourth--that I wanted to use--never sent me specific model numbers and stopped responding when I asked for them.

Our home: DC area, 1250 sq ft above the 600 sq ft finished basement where the furnace would sit.

TRANE

Furnace: 1-Stage XR95 (76,000) (95%)

AC: 2-ton XR-15 (15 SEER) (no tax credit)

Coil: T4TXCB025BC3HCA

True Steam Humidifier

Total Cost (before tax credit): $7,700

Total cost (after tax credit): $6,400

Thanks for the reality check.

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mike_home

Does the condenser have two stages? If it does then I think this is a fair price. My only concern is installing a 80,000 BTU furnace in a 1250 square foot house. It seems oversized to me.

You are only showing a $1300 tax credit. Did you already use $200 on other projects?

    Bookmark   December 24, 2010 at 12:25PM
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Vaandjay

Condensor has only one stage. The credit would be for the furnace; the A/C does not qualify.

I've decided to go with this bid because the company has been responsive to all my questions and upfront about their charges, unlike some other companies.

    Bookmark   December 24, 2010 at 12:49PM
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tigerdunes

vaandjay

look at your original post from Tues. what happened to the $5700 quote/price? I think the price is high. Have you even checked to see if this is an AHRI matched system? I don't think it is. you are buying a premium AC condenser yet you will never achieve its performance/eff capability with the non var speed XR95 furnace. you would be just as well off dropping back to the XR13 condenser. and what does this say about this Trane dealer. Is he an authorized dealer? He either does not know what he's doing and/or does not have the best interests of his customer. Sorry, I should have caught this from the beginning. I would send that dealer packing.

TRANE
Furnace: 1-Stage XR95 (76,000) (95%)
AC: 2-ton XR-15 (15 SEER) (no tax credit)
Coil: T4TXCB025BC3HCA
Total Cost (after tax credit): $5,700

If this was my home, I would call an authorized AmStd dealer and get a quote on the hurry.

IMO

    Bookmark   December 24, 2010 at 1:12PM
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Vaandjay

Thanks. Even before your question, I asked today for a price on the XR-13. He called right back and said he'd get me a price on Monday morning.

    Bookmark   December 24, 2010 at 1:50PM
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tigerdunes

vaandjay

I think you are being snookered by this dealer either by design or ignorance.

and a box filter should be included.

sorry.

IMO

    Bookmark   December 24, 2010 at 2:00PM
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mike_home

I misread the quote. I thought is was the variable speed Trane furnace. Since it is not a variable speed and you are not get a two stage condenser, then it does seem high if it is a simple replacement.

The $5700 quote does not list the humidifier. I assume this is the difference. Do you really need a humidfier?

This is a bad week to try to negoiate price. I am surprised you can schedule an installation this late date. You could continue to shop around and do the installation at a later date. The tax credit drops down to $500 in 2011.

    Bookmark   December 24, 2010 at 3:38PM
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tigerdunes

i suspect there will be alot of backdating over the next several weeks...

    Bookmark   December 24, 2010 at 3:43PM
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Vaandjay

No mention of box filter in bid.
Earlier amount did not include Honeywell HM506H8908 True Steam Humidifier ($650 more), so that and rounding make up the difference between $5,700 and $6,400.

I've tried using the AHRI website to see if the system is matched. I know that the A/C is a one-stage unit, but I don't know how to check if a system is matched.

I'm running out of time. At least the overpriced company is responsive, is clearly liked by past customers (excellent reviews by them in a local magazine where customers rate local service providers), and has been upfront.

I just saw a Carrier dealer who recommended
60,000 btu 58MEC (93%) twoish-stage (definitely have low and high burners; Carrier literature describes it both as a one-stage and a two-stage depending on the literature)
16-SEER Comfort 24ACC6
This would qualify for the tax credit. He initially talked about the Infinity but when I said we likely wouldn't be in the house for more than 5 more years, he made this recommendation. Unlike most others, he said the house definitely did not need an 80,000 btu furnace and said it would be oversized.

I'll let you know when I get the estimate from this latest person. Thanks for your help and time. Happy holidays.

    Bookmark   December 24, 2010 at 4:37PM
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tigerdunes

VJ

I also think you are oversized on furnace! a 60K 95% should be just fine and save you on operating costs.

IMO

    Bookmark   December 24, 2010 at 5:11PM
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aemeeich_

I don't have much comment on the price of the quote itself, but a 75000 BTU furnace is very oversized. Once a heat loss calculation is done, you may even find that a 45,000 BTU furnace is plenty for your house.

For example, my brother's ranch house in SE Wisconsin (design of -4�F) is 1900 sq ft with a 500 sq ft finished basement. He has a 60,000 BTU Carrier single stage furnace in it that is sized perfectly. On those below zero nights, the furnace will run almost continuously, with some brief cycle off times.

Since your house is smaller and is located in an area with a design temperature of 14�F, even a 60,000 BTU furnace may be too big.

If you do end up going with a 60,000 at least make sure it is 2 stage. That way you will run at 37,000 BTU on low speed most of the time (if not all the time - you may rarely if ever see high speed).

The Carrier

    Bookmark   December 25, 2010 at 8:05PM
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Vaandjay

Just got a quote from the Carrier dealer. For $7,320,
One (1) Carrier 58MEC060-12 Gas Furnace 60,000 BTU (two-stage but not a variable speed motor; ECM motor) (93%)
One (1) Carrier 24ACC624 Two Ton Two Speed 16 SEER Product Line Air Conditioning Unit (Comfort Line, one-stage)
One (1) Carrier 2 Ton Puron A-Coil
One (1) Carrier Edge Thermostat
One (1) New Line Set
All New Mechanicals
Add Return in Basement
Run Vinyl Hose to Laundry
New PVC Flue
Carrier 700 Humidifier

$7,320 total before $1,500 tax credit. $5,820 after it. I feel terible that I told the other person I planned to sign tomorrow, but this offers a two-stage furnace and a higher efficiency A/C for $300 less.

    Bookmark   December 26, 2010 at 9:47PM
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Vaandjay

To clarify, it's a two-stage A/C.

    Bookmark   December 26, 2010 at 10:00PM
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neohioheatpump

2-stage A/C might be a little overkill for your area. I"m not a huge fan of that added complexity but I could be wrong. I would ask if he could downgrade the condensor to highest single stage but HEAT-pump for the same price. Then you would be running dual fuel.

You can qualify a little easier with the heatpump also for the federal tax credit. You don't need 16 seer for heatpump only 15 seer I think. Dual fuel is nice. Best of both worlds. The heatpump for longer runs and comfy, warm, cheap heat when mild out and the gas furnace for when cold out.

These setups aren't that uncommon.

    Bookmark   December 26, 2010 at 10:40PM
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tigerdunes

vaandjay

this is a much nicer system than Trane's XR95. I would add a 4-5" pleated filter box cabinet. what mdl evap coil? post back and I will verify it's a matching system that qualifies for tax credit.

IMO

    Bookmark   December 27, 2010 at 8:04AM
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Vaandjay

The Carrier Media Filter would be an additional $350. Is this really worth it?

The coil model is a CNPV*2417A**, which appears to qualify for the tax credit, but if you want to double check, I certainly won't stop you.

Thank you for all your help on this.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2010 at 10:50AM
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tigerdunes

vaandjay

yes, this is a matching and tax credit qualifying system. see below.

3656243 Active Systems COMFORT 16 PURON AC CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 24ACC624A**30 CNPV*2417A** 58ME(B,C)060-12 23200 13.00 16.00 1

I would request a change to the 3117 evap mdl that gives you a full 24 KBTUs on cooling. there should be no charge for this.

as to the box filter cabinet, yes , I think it's desireable and worth it. not only do you get better dust coverage inside your home, you get better protection of expensive blower motor and evap coil at the furnace. changeouts are easy and filter lasts up to one year. make certain the $350 price includes the filter.

IMO
Good Luck!

    Bookmark   December 27, 2010 at 11:45AM
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Vaandjay

tigerdunes,

Thanks for everything. I think this is my last question. The media filter would come with Carrier's MERV 10 filter. I kow that I could get 3M filters that are MERV 11 and/or 12 and shove them into the existing filter holder. Is the main advatage of the box filter it's shape and ability to work for a year? It doen't seem that there's a health advantage if 3-month filters have a higher MERV.

Thanks. You have been a big educator (and money saver) for me and I appreciate all the help you've given.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2010 at 12:05PM
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tigerdunes

vaandjay

I will not sit here and tell you a box filter is necessary. It is not. However, I do believe the functionality is better and good protection of blower motor asbly and evap coil is most important.

Difference between MERV 10 to 12 is inconsequential. The rule of thunb is the higher the MERV the more restrictive the airflow. However, in recent years there has been a great deal of emphasis and improvements in whole house air filter solutions and effectiveness.

I think the box filter is worth it but of course it's your call and your money.

I would insist on the larger size evap coil, CNPV*3117ATA. It is a match as well.

IMO
Good Luck!

    Bookmark   December 27, 2010 at 1:21PM
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ryanhughes

Be aware that the A/C you were quoted is NOT a 2 stage unit. Do you feel as good about this dealer as you did with the Trane dealer? Seems like you were pretty happy with the Trane dealer's responses and recommendations - hopefully the Carrier dealer is the same way.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2010 at 2:21PM
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Vaandjay

Ryan,

This Carrier dealer has been very responsive so far, though maybe a touch less than the Trane dealer. That being said, everything I see indicates that the Comfort 16 is at the low end of Carrier's two-stage A/Cs. Carrier needs to update their website because they seem to have issues matching their short descriptions with their product literature. This came from the site: http://www.docs.hvacpartners.com/idc/groups/public/documents/marketing/01-824-026-25.pdf
It clearly states that the A/C is a two-stage unit.

If the Trane dealer had given a more reasonable quote right away, I would have simply accepted the one-stage furnace and the one-stage A/C. In a sense, it's good that he was high priced because now I'm going to get a Carrier two-stage furnace for less than the Trane one-stage furnace.

Aside from price, I have nothing bad to say about either contractor. They have both been extremely responsive and, I believe, would do an excellent job. One was just a lot more willing to accept a somewhat lower profit margin without me haggling for it.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2010 at 2:45PM
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ryanhughes

Not sure why Carrier has this misinformation on their website. Carrier's Comfort 17 is the 2 stage unit (model #24ACB724) while the Comfort 16 is a 16 SEER single stage unit (model #24ACC624). Below is a link to the "technical literature" on this model.

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.docs.hvacpartners.com/idc/groups/public/documents/techlit/24acc6-1pd.pdf

    Bookmark   December 27, 2010 at 3:14PM
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tigerdunes

I really think this is much ado about nothing although website info should be correct.

I looked at the Carrier site as well and it seems the information is contradictory.

The consumer brochure on the AC page for Comfort 16 clearly states this AC is two stage, while the product specs suggest it is not.

go figure.

IMO

Here is a link that might be useful: Consumer Brochure Comfort 16 AC

    Bookmark   December 27, 2010 at 3:20PM
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ryanhughes

I agree that website info needs to be accurate so that consumers get the right information. I would not worry about having a 2 stage condenser because 1. you only plan on staying in the home for 5 more years and 2, with the current Carrier 2-stage outdoor units, you're still operating at 80% capacity or more on low stage, so it's not like there's a serious comfort advantage to operating in low stage (in my opinion). Below is the Comfort 17 brochure if you're interested in asking your dealer about the 2-stage model.

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.docs.hvacpartners.com/idc/groups/public/documents/marketing/01-824-038-25.pdf

    Bookmark   December 27, 2010 at 3:25PM
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Vaandjay

Good point Ryan. Like I said, Carrier needs to work on its site. I called up Carrier and got the correct information: This is a one-stage. The dealer had said that at my house, but the bid mentioned two stage. I still will go with the lower-priced two-stage furnace/16 SEER one-stage A/C over the one-stage/one-stage (15 SEER) combo, but you make a good point. The Carrier representative said she was going to make a note of this so the information gets updated.

The info on the website is also unclear about whether the Performance Boost 90 is a one-stage or two-stage furnace. The product data refers to it as two-stage, but the quick info on the website referes to it solely as one-stage. I verified that it is a two-stage with an ECM motor (rather than a variable speed motor). The representative asked if I wanted to work on their website and said she'd be reporting this discrepancy as well.

Thanks for the information and clarification. Carrier needs to have someone look over their product data and brochures on their own site.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2010 at 3:51PM
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tigerdunes

either way, this is a nice system and a good alternative to the more expensive Infinity. and while I like Trane and the XV95, this system is superior to the XR95 system. plus I lost confidence in the Trane dealer's competence.

TD

    Bookmark   December 27, 2010 at 4:24PM
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Vaandjay

TD,

Thanks. The Carrier guy called back to say that the A/C was a one-stage, not a two-stage. He also explained that because of the walls from an office on the other side of the furnace area and the low ceiling in my finished basement, there is only one place to put the humidifier. He said that the larger coil (24") and humidifier would not fit. The smaller coil (18") would allow for the humidifier. He offered to do the larger coil without the humidifer. My wife, who has very dry skin, really wanted a humidifier, so I accepted the smaller coil. All in all, I am much more content with the situation now than I was last week.

And I think that concludes the purchase segment of our broadcast (except for my payment). Thanks for everything.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2010 at 5:50PM
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tigerdunes

vaandjay

there are always compromises in everything so I totally understand. I have attempted to provide you facts and alternatives so you can make the best informed decision.

let us know how the install goes and your initial impression following several days of operation.

Good Luck!

    Bookmark   December 27, 2010 at 6:00PM
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Vaandjay

I definitely will let you (and everyone else) know.

    Bookmark   December 27, 2010 at 6:20PM
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Vaandjay

Just thought I'd post a follow-up to this old string. The furnace and A/C were installed on the day the contractor said (12/30), so they qualified for the tax credit.

The employees were pretty much at our house all day and put in the Carrier furnace, A/C, thermostat, and humidifier, and they re-routed the water line to our wash basin instead of outdoors where the water previously pooled somewhat in our backyard and could get icy.

Within a week or two, the condensate pump stopped working so the furnace stopped. The humidifier never seemed to work correctly to that point either. The pump was faulty and was replaced. The humidifier had something wrong, and it was fixed too. Now the humidifier works, the furnace works, and all is well.

I have a feeling that the problems might not have occurred with the Trane dealer, who seemed more involved personally than this contractor. Nevertheless when I mentioned that things weren't working, they got fixed immediately. Overall, I'm very happy to have a 2-stage furnace and the A/C (which I have not checked yet, of course) than the 1-stage Trane that was priced very high.

And considering how hard it was for them to get the coil in our enclosed furnace area, I'm glad I went with the smaller coil.

Thanks for your help with everything.

    Bookmark   March 7, 2011 at 10:22AM
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seatonheating

Seems like the Trane dealer got the shaft and I bet they feel real bad about it. All for saving a couple of pennies, how sad.

    Bookmark   March 8, 2011 at 2:51AM
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plinko

Yeah, imagine that. Customer decided to get the most for less money.

    Bookmark   March 13, 2011 at 1:58AM
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