AC/Furnace American Standard Quote Feedback

yoyomaJuly 24, 2008

Are these quotes fair? This is for a 1900 sq.f. house in the SF bay area.

All options include new R6.0 ductwork and new registers installed in the ceiling. The existing duct system in the crawlspace will be left as-is. The new furnace will be in the attic and include a new evaporator coil, condensate drain, secondary pan and drain, refrigeration piping, high and low voltage electrical and new duct system sealed and tested to meet title 24 specs.

It does not include a plywood platform for the equipment, or bringing electrical to the outdoor unit, nor electrical to the attic, nor bringing the gas piping to the attic furnace.

Option 1: AS Model# AUD100R9V4K, 100,000 Btu, 80% AFUE Furnace

AS Model# 2A7A3048A1000A, 4 Ton, 13 Seer A/C

Summit, model CA048A867XME, 4 Ton, Evaporator Coil

Cost: $13,490

Option 2: AS Model# AUX100R948W, 100,000 Btu, 92% AFUE Furnace

AS, Model# 4A7A4048B1000A, 4 Ton, 14 Seer A/C

Summit Model CA048A867XME, 4 Ton Evaporator Coil

Cost: $14,905

Option 3: AS Model# AUH2C100A9, 100,000 Btu, 95% AFUE Furnace

AS Model# 4A7A6048B1000A, 4 Ton, 16 Seer A/C

Summit Model CA048a867XME, 4 Ton Evaporator Coil

Cost: $16,755

Thanks for any feedback.

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ryanhughes

If you wanted to go American Standard, my recommendation would be a 13/14 SEER R-410A American Standard condenser with the 95% variable-speed furnace and Honeywell VisionPRO IAQ thermostat to control blower speed for humidity (if set up properly of course) FOR YOU AREA. Have you considered a media air filter cabinet? Also, 4 tons for 1900 square feet? I'm not a fan of the 16 SEER units from Trane/American Standard, especially at that price. Why do they want to use a Summit coil? I suggest you get a couple more quotes. Is there a good Carrier dealer in your area?

    Bookmark   July 24, 2008 at 11:15PM
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yoyoma

Wouldn't it come with a media air filter cabinet? Or do you mean something like the AccuClean filter? Half the house will be vaulted, so I guess that's why they suggested the 4 ton. What's wrong with using a Summit coil? Are there known issues with it? The contractor I will be using for the house remodel uses this HVAC company for many, many years and so since they will need to work together to do it, I guess I need to stick to this HVAC company. And they use American Standard/Trane I think.

    Bookmark   July 25, 2008 at 12:16AM
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ryanhughes

I'd ask why they prefer the Summit coils. Maybe they can get more efficiency with them. By media cabinet I mean something that houses a 4-5" pleated filter that is replaced less often and provides better filtration. Whatever route you go, I'd go with a variable-speed furnace and a R-410A condenser.

    Bookmark   July 25, 2008 at 11:14AM
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yoyoma

So does Option 2 include a variable-speed furnace and a R-410A condenser? Thanks for the info.

    Bookmark   July 25, 2008 at 11:21AM
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zl700

Perhaps the secret is out; Trane doesn't make their own indoor coils.
Trane/AS coils in a competitive market have always been overpriced.
As a former distributor/wholesaler to keep our equipment pricing in line, I used to buy ADP coils painted the dull green color, over 25% less than the Trane offering.

    Bookmark   July 25, 2008 at 11:31AM
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yoyoma

I see that Option 3 is the only one with the variable speed furnace. Unfortunately that's linked to the 16 SEER unit which you don't like so I guess I'll go with option 2, although that means I can't use that Honeywell thermostat for the humidty control. They said that the summit coil gains an extra SEER so I guess it's more efficient. The 5" pleated filter is called, "Perfect Filter" and is an extra $400 but the Accuclean option is $775 so he said that everyone uses that instead. Thanks again.

    Bookmark   July 25, 2008 at 12:26PM
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ryanhughes

Maybe he could get the Honeywell or AprilAire filter at a lower price. Options 1 and 3 have a variable-speed furnace and R-410A condenser. See if he can put Option 2's condenser with Option 3's furnace, then use the Honeywell VisionPRO IAQ YTH9421C1002 t-stat. That would be a great setup. Option 2's furnace is a 2-stage non-variable-speed furnace. Good luck.

Zl700, I'm not sure if many manufacturers make much of any of their product line anymore. :-/

    Bookmark   July 25, 2008 at 2:24PM
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yoyoma

Wouldn't I also need to get a humidifier as well, in order to take advantage of the Honeywell VisionPRO t-stat? I don't like the idea of ozone in my house, so I would get the 5" Perfect (pleated media) filter instead of Accuclean.

    Bookmark   July 25, 2008 at 2:32PM
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ryanhughes

You wouldn't need a humidifier, but it can control one if you decide to get one... Does your area get humid?

    Bookmark   July 25, 2008 at 2:45PM
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yoyoma

It doesn't get humid here. So how does the Honeywell VisionPRO t-stat maintain humidity without a humidifer? Is that possible? Thanks.

    Bookmark   July 25, 2008 at 3:00PM
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ryanhughes

It dehumidifies by slowing down the variable-speed blower, or if you don't have the variable-speed blower by overcooling up to a few degrees (depending on setting). It humidifies with the use of a humidifier--this is for the heating season. The heat can make the air dry and uncomfortable. It's still a nice thermostat nonetheless. If you don't have a strong issue with humidity, then you could likely just go with the ACONT802 thermostat (it's essentially a touchscreen VisionPRO).

    Bookmark   July 25, 2008 at 3:19PM
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yoyoma

Very cool. Is it possible to add the AS humidifier at a later time if I get the Honeywell VisionPRO? Thanks.

    Bookmark   July 25, 2008 at 4:08PM
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ryanhughes

The ACONT802 doesn't control humidity. Now that you mention the chance of adding a humidifier at a later time, I would certainly opt for the Honeywell VisionPRO 'IAQ' YTH9421 thermostat. This controls humidity and dehumidification. It's proven to be one of the top thermostats for its features and usability. I installed a VisionPRO in my own house, but not the IAQ version. See link below for more info on the IAQ.

Here is a link that might be useful: VisionPRO IAQ

    Bookmark   July 25, 2008 at 4:32PM
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yoyoma

Great, I'll see how this new quote turns out, thanks again.

    Bookmark   July 25, 2008 at 4:47PM
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guinnesses

American Standard does make their own evaporator coil. They make the only all aluminum evaporator coil on the market. I would recommend the American Standard coil due to it's reliability and 10 year warranty.

    Bookmark   July 25, 2008 at 7:08PM
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yoyoma

The new bid came in:

Option 4: AS Model# AUH2C100A9V4, 100,000 Btu, 95% AFUE Furnace

(Note the addition of the V4 to the model # compared to Option 3)

AS, Model# 4A7A4048B1000A, 4 Ton, 14 Seer A/C

AS, Model# TE50660C210B27, 4T w/TXV, evaporator coil

Perfect Fit, 5" media filter or equal. (Dealer is willing to upgrade to ACCU-CLEAN filter at no additional charge)

Does that slight addition of "V4" to the model number of the furnace important? Is this evaporator coil equal to the previously offered Summit coil? Should I go for the Accu-Clean since it's the same price and I don't like the idea of ozone creation in the house? Thanks.

    Bookmark   July 28, 2008 at 10:09PM
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ryanhughes

The V4 just means 4 tons (airflow - maximum). Nice system @ 12 EER and 14 SEER. I see more ADP coils used than Summit coils, so that might be a good thing... They're used often to get better ratings for some matchups. Filter option is entirely up to you. I've heard that the AccuClean does require more maintenance than the pleated-type filter. What warranty was provided for everything? Also, ask for one of the following thermostats: ACONT802 (touchscreen programmable, no humidity control), ACONT803 (touchscreen programmable, overcool to dehumidify), or Honeywell VisionPRO IAQ (ability to overcool or slow the blower down to dehumidify). All are fine thermostats, but of course the IAQ would be the best choice.

Refresh my memory... was a load calculation done to determine sizing or did he just guesstimate?

    Bookmark   July 28, 2008 at 10:41PM
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yoyoma

I forgot to mention the price for Option 4: $15,055

In my voicemail I left for him I asked for the Honeywell VisionPRO IAQ t-stat, since I may want to upgrade to a humidifier in the future, but there was no mention of it, or any other t-stat in this followup bid. Should I ask that it being included or is that pushing things? There was no mention of a warranty in the bid at all. Should I ask for a specific kind of warranty?

The idea of getting a more powerful filter for the same price is enticing, but ozone creation sounds scary so I guess I'll pass on the AccuClean filter and stick to the Perfect Filter. Thanks.

    Bookmark   July 28, 2008 at 11:11PM
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yoyoma

Oh, and no load calculations were done. He was adamant that even if it were done, the recommendation would not be enough and I would want a bigger one. Nobody I have contacted said they do them around here for some reason. Currently there is no AC at all, and remodelling work is being done to vault the ceilings in half the house. Windows will also be replaced in half the house. It was built in the 60's so insulation is pretty poor overall, although I do see pink insulation in the attic. When they vault the ceiling it will be insulated to R-38. Thanks.

    Bookmark   July 28, 2008 at 11:15PM
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ryanhughes

At that price I would certainly have him include it before you sign since you had requested for it to be in the quote to begin with. Make sure they read the manual for the thermostat if they've never set one up before. Have them set up the dehumidify on demand feature.

I asked about warranty just out of curiosity to know the warranty on that coil. Just checked with ADP and it is 5 years. Again, I don't know why the dealer insists on using third-party coils... possibly for the efficiency ratings. Trane's all-aluminum evaporator coil has a 10-year warranty. I just checked ARI and Trane's coils produce slightly less than 14 SEER. 10-year warranty on an all-aluminum coil... I think I'd go with the American Standard/Trane coil personally.

I'm really not well-versed with electronic air cleaners and don't know a lot about the ozone issue, but I did a quick search and it looks like some people have been happy with the CleanEffects/AccuClean. My search results show that it produces a low amount of ozone. It's up to you. I will attach the thread that I found below. If you don't like the idea of ozone and the maintenance, then by all means go with the media filter that gets replaced 1-2 times a year. It should provide great filtration itself.

Here is a link that might be useful: Thread RE: CleanEffects & Ozone

    Bookmark   July 28, 2008 at 11:24PM
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yoyoma

Well looks like I'm going to be going with Option 4, which includes the AS coil which I suppose is good. I only asked for the Honeywell VisionPRO IAQ t-stat in my followup quote request, not in the initial one, but I suppose I can say something like, "since I requested the Honeywell VisionPRO IAQ t-stat I'm assuming that will be put in as well." Doesn't hurt to try, but I don't think I'd reject the bid if they refuse to add it in.

I saw that thread on AccuClean, too. Too many concerns to be worried about so I'll stick with the safe but boring 5" pleated filter. Thanks again.

    Bookmark   July 28, 2008 at 11:59PM
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ryanhughes

Good choice (with American Standard coil). If they don't want to go with the IAQ, then at least have them put in an ACONT800 series thermostat. Good luck with the new system.

    Bookmark   July 29, 2008 at 1:30PM
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guinnesses

Most of the "concerns" of the AccuClean are generated by competitive brands. Fire alarms generate ozone as well. Once a fire alarm maker figures out how to make one that does not generate ozone, there will suddenly become "concerns" about fire alarms hyped up by the competition. The ozone generated is very minimal, and the unit can be adjusted to generate even less.

    Bookmark   July 29, 2008 at 5:40PM
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yoyoma

If I get an AccuClean and decide I want to swap it out with the 5" pleated filter, is that possible? Maybe I should just try it out since there's no additional cost from the pleated filter. ryanhughes, thanks for the advice about the ACONT800 series.

    Bookmark   July 29, 2008 at 10:30PM
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yoyoma

The Honeywell VisionPro IAQ page lists 3 different model numbers:

#Model Number:TH9421, THM5421C1008, YTH9421C1002

Honeywell VisionPro IAQ

I asked for YTH9421C1002 based on what was suggested here, but am wondering what the difference is between the other ones. Thanks.

    Bookmark   July 31, 2008 at 5:59PM
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ryanhughes

The YTH9421 includes the EIM (equipment interface module) and the thermostat.

I think the TH9421 is just the thermostat.

The THM5421 is the EIM itself.

    Bookmark   July 31, 2008 at 6:11PM
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yoyoma

Great thanks!

    Bookmark   July 31, 2008 at 6:14PM
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