Yet another Heatpump/AirHandler Question

VivixJuly 22, 2014

Hello:
Please permit me to pick your brains. We live in a 2 storey, 3 bedroom 1978 semi detached colonial townhouse, with attached 1 car garage and a finished basement in Washington DC. The entire living area is about 1700 sq feet. We currently have a trane XB1000 2T air conditioner and an oil furnace that is original to the house. The oil is for heating while the rest of the house is electric. There are no gas lines. We want to convert to all electric heat pump and air handler. None of the dealers we've called were interested in doing a load/manual J calculation and I'm getting frustrated asking. Here are the current quotes I have:

RUUD
RR-UPQL-036JEZ
RR-RHKL -HM3617JA
RR-RXBH-1724A10J
Honeywell 8000 Thermostat
$6000.00 (Dealer claims that the coil is already inside the airhandler or heatpump. I don't recall which one he said. Also includes a new return in the basement.

CARRIER (Different Dealer)
FE-4-CNF-003T VS air handler
25HNB624A003 2T/ 2 stage/ 24,000 BTU heat pump
FC2815N15 15KW electric back up heater package
SYSTXCCITC01 wifi enabled controller
1 MERV-8 media air filter with two spare filters
13,300 (includes a new return in the basement and 2 year parts and labor warranty by dealer and 10year carrier warranty)

TRANE (Yet another Dealer)
XB-14 4TWB4024 heat pump
TAM4A024S21SC with a 8KW strip heater
TCONT802 thermostat
10, 984 (1 year parts and labor warranty and 10 year trane warranty)

I got some other quotes but since I knew more about HVAC than the estimator, I didn't bother including their quotes. Thanks for tuning in.

.

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Vivix

Anybody?, Somebody? I need to make decisions ASAP. Thanks.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2014 at 10:07AM
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Vivix

Calling on tigerdunes, mike_home, ryanhughes et al. Pls help a desperate home owner :crying

    Bookmark   July 23, 2014 at 12:58PM
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tigerdunes

Ok

You realize the Rudd is a 3 ton system while the Carrier and Trane quotes are 2 ton systems.

The Carrier pricing is absolutely absurd.

The Rudd is a nice system. I would want a load calculation for correct sizing. Not sure you need a 3 ton for TH. You will need a new and correctly sized lineset. I would want HW Mdl 8321 thermostat. What size heat strip quoted? Dealer has verified you have electric breaker service capacity? Generally, condenser, air handler, and heat strip are placed on separate circuits.

What else you want to know? I prefer Trane but that dealer must be joking with the pricing.

IMO

    Bookmark   July 23, 2014 at 1:35PM
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Vivix

Finally! Thanks. I've refreshed my screen so many times, it was practically begging me to stop. I currently have a 2 ton system and I've gotten quotes from a 2 ton to a 3 ton. No one would do a load calculation. The carrier dealer said that he's done a lot of work in my neighborhood/houses like mine and the load calculation is at about 2.1. One of the dealers suggested a big return in the basement to accommodate the increase to 3 ton. The ruud is with a 10KW heat strip. Is there any sense to his assertion that the e. coil was already included in the air handler?

If you prefer Trane, can you give me some model numbers to ask them a quote for? Thank you.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2014 at 1:47PM
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tigerdunes

Trane XR13 and XR15 2 1/2 ton with best Tam7 air handler.

AmStd Heritage 13 and Heritage 15 2 1/2 ton with best Tam7 air handler.

For info Trane and AmStd are sister companies.

IMO

    Bookmark   July 23, 2014 at 1:53PM
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Vivix

So sorry to keep bothering you but can you give me exact specifications ie the AHRI numbers you usually run? It is all so confusing. These dealers seem to require some hand holding. Maybe, they think I'm not rich or serious enough for their time. :) Thank you for giving this forum so much of your time.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2014 at 2:48PM
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tigerdunes

Trane

5270059 Active Systems XR13 WEATHERTRON TRANE 4TWR3030C1 *AM7A0C36H31 1025 32200 13.00 15.50 29000 9.00 16500 1 HRCU-A-CB 258 662 Yes

AmStd

5271459 Active Systems AMERICAN STANDARD 13 AMERICAN STANDARD, INC. 4A6H3030C1 *AM7A0C36H31 1025 32200 13.00 15.50 29000 9.00 16500 1 HRCU-A-CB 258 662 Yes

Identical systems, forget the XR15 and Heritage 15.

IMO

    Bookmark   July 23, 2014 at 3:02PM
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mike_home

Does the current 2 ton AC keep the house cool? If yes, then that is the correct size. The 3 tons seems big considering you are attached on one side.

It's the busy time of the year so you can expect poor responses and high prices. If the current AC is working then consider waiting until Sept/Oct to do the work.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2014 at 3:10PM
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tigerdunes

I prefer a load calc.

But you will never get me to believe a 2 ton is large enough for a1978 built TH. plus OP will need the extra heating BTUs.

IMO

    Bookmark   July 23, 2014 at 3:33PM
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Vivix

Thanks, Mike_Home. The current 2T AC doesn't cool the house well but maybe it's because it's a 10 SEER? We've been using window ACs as well but the noise from the window ACs is slowing driving us bunkers.

Tigerdunes, The HRCU-A-CB 258 668 refers to a 10KW heat strip, right?

What media filter do you recommend? Do we need a humidifier and/or air cleaner or are those marketing gimmicks?

    Bookmark   July 23, 2014 at 3:41PM
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tigerdunes

Tigerdunes, The HRCU-A-CB 258 668 refers to a 10KW heat strip, right?

No.

Do you have issues with static electricity in the winter? RH should be in a range of 30-40%.

Yes I recommend a filter cabinet. Preferably Trane Perfect fit because it is made to fit Trane air handlers/furnaces. There are 3rd party models that can do the job. Honeywell is OK. AprilAire,etc

IMO

    Bookmark   July 23, 2014 at 4:09PM
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SaltiDawg

"Thanks, Mike_Home. The current 2T AC doesn't cool the house well but maybe it's because it's a 10 SEER?"

No matter what the SEER, a 2 Ton rated unit delivers nominally two tons of cooling... cost to do so may well vary with efficiency, but two tons is two tons.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2014 at 4:19PM
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mike_home

I find it interesting that 2 out or the 3 contractors proposed a 2 ton heat pump. We are all guessing on the size without data. A 2.5 ton may be the best compromise.

The SEER rating does not affect the cooling ability. It is a measure of efficiency.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2014 at 4:25PM
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tigerdunes

The two quotes for the 2 ton systems are because the dealers didn't take the time to discuss any issues with the homeowner. They just looked to see the existing was a 2 ton. Just compounding and repeating a long ago mistake.

A perfect example of what is wrong with the HVAC residential market. No professionalism by too many dealers that just want to sell product, not the right product.

IMO

    Bookmark   July 23, 2014 at 4:33PM
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Vivix

I'm inclined to agree with you, tigerdunes about the 2T quotes, one of the dealers actually told me that what I had was a 2T heatpump. (don't worry, I've already deleted him from my list)

The Trane perfect fit seems more expensive, can you recommend a good generic model? Thanks again.

    Bookmark   July 23, 2014 at 5:29PM
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tigerdunes

I have already listed a third party. Honeywell Mdl 200...

    Bookmark   July 23, 2014 at 5:36PM
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weedmeister

What are you going to do with the oil furnace and tank? Have you looked into how much it will cost to dispose of the old tank?

    Bookmark   July 24, 2014 at 12:41AM
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tigerdunes

Certainly the decommissioning of the oil furnace and its removal along with same for tank will involve time and money. But that's part of the cost involved in switching from oil to electric. It's a given that it must be done at some point in time. Could leave everything in place. Any oil in tank though should be recycled back to the supplier. Discuss options with quoting HP dealers for their advice. I wouldn't expect much help from your fuel oil supplier.

IMO

    Bookmark   July 24, 2014 at 8:48AM
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Vivix

Thanks weedmeister. The trane quote includes removing the oil tank but we'll probably go thru our heating oil supplier. They said they would do it for about $500.

Tigerdunes, you usually advocate for a 15 seer, 12+ EER, 9 HSPF minimum spec. But you told me to "forget the XR15 and Heritage 15". Any particular reason for this change?

Are there any trane/AS rebates/incentives I should know about?

WIll the recommended systems qualify for tax credit?

Thanks.

    Bookmark   July 24, 2014 at 9:51AM
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tigerdunes

You are not reading the AhRI numbers I gave you. They yield 15.5 SEER and 9 HSPF which are excellent. No need for the XR15 or AS counterpart because you would only be getting an additional 1/2 SEER. Simply not worth it.

Take the time to read these numbers. They are important.

IMO

    Bookmark   July 24, 2014 at 10:03AM
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Vivix

Sorry to keep asking the obvious. I realized my error but I had already hit submit. Thanks for your patience. I should have titled my post "HVAC for dummies". You should think about writing a book like that. :)

And to add to the continuing saga, the estimator who had less knowledge about hvacs than I do, wants to come back with someone more 'experienced' to give me a better estimate. Hopefully, they will do a load calculation. Should I tell them that they should not bother showing up if they are not willing to do a load calculation?

    Bookmark   July 24, 2014 at 10:20AM
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Vivix

Sorry to keep asking the obvious. I realized my error but I had already hit submit. Thanks for your patience. I should have titled my post "HVAC for dummies". You should think about writing a book like that. :)

And to add to the continuing saga, the estimator who had less knowledge about hvacs than I do, wants to come back with someone more 'experienced' to give me a better estimate. Hopefully, they will do a load calculation. Should I tell them that they should not bother showing up if they are not willing to do a load calculation?

    Bookmark   July 24, 2014 at 10:40AM
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tigerdunes

As far as load calc, that is up to you. It is something you could do yourself for a nominal fee as long as you take the time to perform correctly.i can give you a link if interested. I believe a 2 1/2 ton would be fine and a 3 ton in a Sgl stage would be oversized. You might want to check your neighbors with the same size/layout of your TH and see what size they have.

Dealer needs to check your ductwork though both supply and return(s) for size since you are going up in condenser size.

I am not going to hold your hand. You need to check on rebates and available tax credits yourself. Do you live in DC proper or a DC suburb?

IMO

    Bookmark   July 24, 2014 at 10:50AM
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mike_home

The federal tax credit is no longer available. You may be eligible of a local rebate.

    Bookmark   July 24, 2014 at 11:33AM
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Vivix

No hand holding required. Just a shove in the right direction :) We're in DC proper. Pepco seems to have rebates only for MD customers and none for DC.

    Bookmark   July 24, 2014 at 12:39PM
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Vivix

So I got another quote over the weekend. Same ruud system as the order ruud quote. His quote was at about $7000 which includes a new line set and moving the air handler about 10 inches and the duct work about 2 ft.

I then asked him about a trane quote. His response was that he did not like trane cos they have electronic/electric txv which is expensive to maintain/repair. I asked about american standard and he said that trane and AS are no longer made by the same company or will no longer be made by the same company. As I understood it, the company that makes trane is in the midst of divesting itself of the american standard part of the company. Any truth to these assertions? Thanks.

    Bookmark   July 28, 2014 at 9:19AM
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tigerdunes

That's news to me...without making a few calls, I would say that's typical unethical BS...

IMO

    Bookmark   July 28, 2014 at 9:32AM
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