Help With a Heat Pump decision

WebfutJune 12, 2014

Hello,

I would love some help deciding on a heat pump. I am looking at Carrier and Trane. I have the Carrier info below (hope prices are OK), but not the full Trane info with me as I am travelling.

I live in Southern Oregon. Our house is 2200SF, multi level w/ 20 ft vaulted ceilings in the lower level.

We currently have an 11 year old, 4T Carrier system with a 2 zone system that just had the condenser go out in. Rather than do a "Dry Unit" we are thinking about doing a whole new system.

The Trane rep has quoted me $8,800 for a 4T XR17 w/ TAM air handler (sorry dont have info) and new lines. He is talking about using the existing Carrier 2 zone system and Tstat with the new system. The other option is an XR15 with the same options for $8,000

Below is what the Carrier guy gave me...He is not replacing the lines. Also, we do not really want the 4 zone module because we dont need it. He said it was not an option.

I am leaning towards the Trane....What should I be concerned about or asking??

Thanks for the help!!

Mike

Remove and recycle existing heat pump and fan coil.

Provide and install a new high efficiency Carrier Infinity Zone system.

OPTION 1: 4 ton Infinity Greenspeed, Puron heat pump and Infinity variable speed communicating fan coil with 20 KW aux heat. Infinity 4 zone control module with Infinity Smart Zone user interface controls. (18.3 SEER,13.5 EER,12.5 HSPF)
COST: $15,491.00 Less $2,323.00 RVHA Cash Discount $13,168.00
( Unit qualifies for Carrier mail in rebate of $1,150.00 and Oregon Energy Trust Rebate of up to $500.00)
TOTAL INVESTMENT: after rebates $11,518.00

OPTION 2: 4 ton Infinity 2 speed Puron heat pump and Infinity variable speed communicating fan coil with 20 KW aux heat. Infinity 4 zone control module with Infinity Smart Zone user interface controls. (16.8 SEER,13.1 EER,9.5 HSPF)
COST: $14,155.00 Less $2,123.00 RVHA Cash Discount $12,032.00
(Unit qualifies for Carrier mail in rebate of $1,000.00 and Oregon Energy Trust Rebate of up to $500.00)
TOTAL INVESTMENT: after rebates $10,532.00

OPTION 3: 4 ton Infinity single speed Puron heat pump and Infinity variable speed communicating fan coil with 20 KW aux heat. Infinity 4 zone control module with Infinity Smart Zone user interface controls. (15.5 SEER,12.5 EER,8.5 HSPF)
COST: $11,799.00 Less $1,769.00 RVHA Cash Discount $10,030.00
(Unit Qualifies for Carrier mail in rebate of $525.00)
TOTAL INVESTMENT: after rebate $9,505.00

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tigerdunes

I would want to see model numbers for the HP condensers and air handlers.

Of course the GreenSpeed is the nicer of the systems. Great pricing. Understand you are paying for the low temp heating efficiency with the GreenSpeed.

There have been a few noise related issues with the GreenSpeed. Not trying to scare you off but you should know. You might go to youtube and check this out. I would want to qualify the dealer that he is a certified in GreenSpeed installs. Carrier has a special class. The heat strips should be staged. Any air filter cabinet?

IMO

    Bookmark   June 13, 2014 at 4:57AM
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Webfut

Thanks for the reply! I have the model numbers for the Trane system at home so I can post them when I get back. All I have from the Carrier dealer is what. I posted above....should I ask him for those?

I wasn't really looking at the Greenspeed due to costs. We were hopeing to stay closer to that $8k - $9k range so I was leaning to the Trane options or #3 above. Is the extra $2 - 3k really gonna pay off over the next 5-10 years? Our current system was a 12 SEER and probably 8 - 8.5 HSPF (I'm guessing) and we never had any issues with heating or cooling so I figured those options were a little overkill.

My main concern is if I go with the a Trane system will it really work with the current Carrier Tsat and 2 zone system that I have like the dealer is telling me? He quoted me an additional $3,200 to do the Trane zoning and Tstat, but as I said we are tryin to keep the cost down if possible.

    Bookmark   June 13, 2014 at 6:34AM
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mike_home

The price after all rebates you have gotten on the Greenspeed is very attractive. I realize it is more money you want to spend, but don't discount it until you do some return on investment calculations.

How much are you currently spending each year on heating and cooling? What are the typical summer highs and winter lows? The more money you spend on energy, the shorter the ROI time period.

The Greenspeed has very good low temperature performance. This means the auxiliary heat strips would be locked out a lower temperature and used less frequently. This translates into savings. There will also be some savings during the summer.

    Bookmark   June 13, 2014 at 8:21AM
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Webfut

Here is the 2 year history for our power, but I'm not sure how to know how much of it is heating/cooling.

Period Days Usage (kwh) Bill Amount
Jun-14 30 1273 142.17
May-14 29 1477 168.14
Apr-14 29 2216 259.13
Mar-14 32 2768 324.44
Feb-14 28 2241 262.52
Jan-14 36 3774 435.35
Dec-13 29 1882 212.96
Nov-13 32 1567 172.48
Oct-13 25 1279 143.88
Sep-13 31 1958 220.78
Aug-13 30 2045 232.09
Jul-13 33 1960 219.4
Jun-13 32 1648 180.97
May-13 28 1544 171.49
Apr-13 32 2214 247.97
Mar-13 28 2428 276.75
Feb-13 29 2971 339.79
Jan-13 34 2737 302.9
Dec-12 29 1730 188.78
Nov-12 29 1529 165.23
Oct-12 33 1761 189.09
Sep-12 30 2061 226.78
Aug-12 33 2191 239.51
Jul-12 29 1684 183.41
Jun-12 29 1447 156.93

Our summer high temps average about 90 degrees with high temps reaching 105-110 at times. Winter low temps average about 30 with lows dropping down to 10-20 at times. We do use our gas fireplace a lot in winter to supplement our heating as well...

    Bookmark   June 13, 2014 at 9:43AM
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mike_home

Does your house have natural gas? If it does then a better strategy may be to install a gas furnace and an AC condenser. Post your gas and electric rates. This will give an indication which type of heating is more economical for your location.

You can create an estimate of how much you have spent on heating and cooling during the last two years. First identify the months you know you did not use the heat pump. Take the average of those months. This represents the monthly electric usage for everything other than the heat pump. Next identify the months you know you used the heat pump for heating. Sum up the total usage for those months and subtract the average for each month. The difference is the money you spent on heating. Repeat this for the months you used the heat pump for cooling.

This method is not exact but at least it will give you an idea of the energy costs. It is good to do this over two years in case you had a year of unusual of hot or cold temperatures.

    Bookmark   June 13, 2014 at 9:57AM
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Webfut

We do not have natural gas in our neighborhood. We have a propane tank that we use for our cooktop and fireplace.

    Bookmark   June 13, 2014 at 10:11AM
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Webfut

Tiger,

Thanks for the heads up on the Greenspeed noise! I watched some of the videos and don't think I would like that. Our unit sits right outside of our master and I can hear our current unit turn on and off and I think I would be annoyed if I had to listen to the Greenspeed all the time (kinda OCD)!

So if I don't choose the Greenspeed, do you guys still suggest Carrier over the Trane?

The Carrier tech is not replacing the lines...should I be concerned about that?

Mike, I appreciate the info on the Heating/cooling calculation. I'll try to figure it out, but I would guess that it is costing me $150 to heat and $100 to cool....? I really don't know but that is what it looks like.

Thanks again!

    Bookmark   June 13, 2014 at 2:21PM
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tigerdunes

Not my intent to scare you off the GreenSpeed but it is something I feel you need to know. GreenSpeeds are mighty quiet. If not going GreenSpeed which has the best HSPF(COP) for heating, then Trane because of the electronic demand defrost feature which Carrier does not offer.

As long as the refrigerant lineset is the correct size to mfg spec, then flushing is OK as long as proper procedure is followed.

Trane XR17 or XL18i if you want the extra 2 yr on compressor warranty along with proprietary funky top which could help in your winter weather.

IMO

    Bookmark   June 13, 2014 at 2:53PM
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josephh11401

I also need some help on the Carrier Greenspeed 25VNA0 units I need 3 units with an air handler model# FE4ANF002these are 2 ton units each. Retro fit to existing duct. would anyone know of a cost for this unit? I really don't want to get shafted on such a large purchase.

    Bookmark   June 13, 2014 at 4:23PM
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tigerdunes

For above poster...

Start your own thread...

It is considered poor forum etiquette to piggyback onto someone else's thread.

See btm of home page.

IMO

    Bookmark   June 13, 2014 at 7:33PM
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mike_home

I think you are paying more for heating and cooling. If find it hard to believe your costs are so low. You are also supplementing the heating with the fireplace so the numbers are skewed.

I may be wrong, but I thought the Greenspeed noise problems were solved by adding a muffler.

You have a low electric rate so the Greenspeed may be a little over kill. The Trane heat pump would seem a better value.

    Bookmark   June 13, 2014 at 8:04PM
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josephh11401

I'm looking at buying three Carrier Green-speed 2 ton units I am going to have them retro-fitted in my home> I need to know about the noise and also costs of a unit. Can anyone help me? Thanks

    Bookmark   June 14, 2014 at 4:53PM
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tigerdunes

Again it is considered poor forum etiquette to piggyback onto someone else's thread. Start your own thread by going to bottom of home page. It is really quite easy.

TD

    Bookmark   June 14, 2014 at 5:04PM
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Webfut

Thank you for the help guys! We have decided to go with the Trane system for $8,600

HP #4TWR7048A
Air Handler #TAM7A0C48
15 KW Supplemental Heat
New Line Set
Connect to existing Carrier Zoning and Tstat.

Is there anything else I should be asking the tech to verify or do during install?

Appreciate it!!

Mike

    Bookmark   June 16, 2014 at 1:09PM
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tigerdunes

I recommend a filter cabinet if you don't already have one. The 15 KW heat strip should be staged.

Tell me a little bit how Carrier zoning is set up. Trane dealer sees no issue using it?

This would be the better air handler choice.

5768478 Active Systems XR17 TRANE 4TWR7048A1 *AM7B0C60H51 1585 1270 48000 13.00 17.00 47000 9.50 30800 1 HRCU-A-CB 350 1045 Yes

IMO

    Bookmark   June 16, 2014 at 1:27PM
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Webfut

We talked about a Filter Cabinet - Do you mean the Trane Perfect Fit or Clean Effects?

OK on the heat strip...I'll tell him I want that.

Not sure what you need per the zoning. It is a two zone system (upstairs/downstairs) that seems to work very well. We usually just turn of the upstairs zone unless we have people visiting. The tech seemed to think it would work fine, but I am going to ask again.

I don't see that air handler listed on the website. Should I just ask him about it? Is it just a 5T air handler or are there other benefits?

Thanks again!

Mike

    Bookmark   June 16, 2014 at 5:04PM
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tigerdunes

The air handler I recommended has the best performance /efficiency numbers for the 4 ton XR17. AHRI #5768478. I would insist on it.

And I do recommend the Perfect Fit media cabinet.

I assume the thermostat is just for cutting the system on/off and the zoning panel actually controls each zone. Correct?

IMO

    Bookmark   June 16, 2014 at 5:31PM
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Webfut

OK, will do on the air handler and media cabinet.

I'm sorry, I am not 100% sure, but I think so. I program both zones at the Tstat for each day and period. The panel is in the attic, but I have never looked at it. Here is the link to my Tstat...

http://esmithair.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/60/2011/12/Comfort_Zone_II.pdf

    Bookmark   June 16, 2014 at 5:49PM
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Webfut

Here is what my current zoning system is....Carrier Comfort Zone II. 2 Zone set up with remote sensor up stairs -

Comfort Zone II is a residential zoning system capable of providing zone control requirements for 2, 4, or 8 living areas. This system allows the homeowner to control the living environment in an individualized and energy efficient way. The Comfort Zone II kit includes the user interface, equipment controller, remote sensors, a duct temperature (LAT) sensor, and an outdoor temperature sensor.

Temperature settings will change automatically on schedule to reflect occupancy or usage
Fully modulating dampers regulate the flow of conditioned air into the zones
The system can selectively cool or heat certain portions of a home depending upon space temperature requirements
Indoor humidity can be displayed and controlled
Enables the IdealHumidity system by monitoring temperature plus humidity at the same time
Power Supply:
24VAC, 50VA, 60 Hz. Only one transformer required for a complete system
Add 5 VA for each additional damper
Electrical Ratings for Actuators:
24VAC, 50VA, 60 Hz. Supplied from WeatherMaker Control Center or Comfort Zone II Equipment Control
Actuators are factory mounted on dampers. Cycling time is 15 seconds

    Bookmark   June 16, 2014 at 6:25PM
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Webfut

Guys are here installing the new unit....There seems to be some confusion. I told them about the 060 air handler you told me about above, but it seems he thought I meant I wanted the 5T outdoor unit. So this is what they are putting in...

4TWR7060A 5T Heatpump
TAM7A0C48 Air Handler

Am I getting screwed? The guy says he looked up the numbers and it was the best efficiency for my climate...

Mike

    Bookmark   June 19, 2014 at 1:34PM
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ryanhughes

So they're upsizing from 4 tons to 5 tons? I wouldn't do that -- not on a zoned system when there were no comfort issues before and not without the necessary ductwork modifications. Going bigger in size when not necessary (as per a load calculation) likely won't provide the same level of comfort due to shorter runtimes. It may never 'need' to go to high stage (not sure how the zone control panel will be set up for staging). Without looking up the actual expanded performance data, low stage alone on a 4 ton 2-stage scroll unit will be fairly close to 4 tons (net capacity) -- you want the full advantages that a 2-stage unit has to offer.

What did the final contract that you signed specify to be installed?

This post was edited by ryanhughes on Thu, Jun 19, 14 at 13:53

    Bookmark   June 19, 2014 at 1:45PM
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tigerdunes

You do not want that.

You want the 4 ton XR17 with Tam7 060 air handler. Stop them in their tracks now pronto.

What the heck are they thinking?

IMO

    Bookmark   June 19, 2014 at 1:50PM
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ryanhughes

Not to mention the 4 ton XR17/5 ton TAM7 combination requested has better SEER/EER/HSPF across the board compared to the 5 ton XR17/4 ton TAM7 matchup.

    Bookmark   June 19, 2014 at 2:05PM
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Webfut

Didn't sign a contract. Have a price sheet with several options and prices and just talked about which option we wanted to go with. When Tigerdunes recommended the other Air handler I called and talked to the rep and that seems to be where the confusion came in...That was my bad! Of course the rep isnt here yet...

Another question, the installer talked about setting the Air handler to 5T with the dip switch. Is that possible and should I let him do that?

    Bookmark   June 19, 2014 at 2:06PM
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tigerdunes

Get the equipment sorted out first!...

Dip switch later but it should be set to the 4 ton XR17....

IMO

    Bookmark   June 19, 2014 at 2:16PM
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mike_home

You don't have the duct work to handle the 2000 CFM required for the 5 ton unit. In addition the larger condenser is going to create problems when one zone is calling for cooling. I don't know the capacity of the low stage but I would be concerned one zone would not be able to handle the air flow.

    Bookmark   June 19, 2014 at 2:27PM
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Webfut

They say the duct work is over sized (which I knew it was) and there is a large bypass so that is why he said the 5 ton would be OK. However I told him that I wanted to go with the original options - 4T HP & 5T AH. It will be another two week delay because of scheduling, but I guess that will have to work.

Thanks for the help everyone!

Mike

    Bookmark   June 19, 2014 at 2:57PM
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ryanhughes

I think you'll be glad you waited in the long run.

Best of luck.

    Bookmark   June 19, 2014 at 3:24PM
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tigerdunes

Keep us posted...like Ryan said, the wait will be worth it in the long run...

TD

    Bookmark   June 19, 2014 at 3:55PM
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weedmeister

You would be very unhappy with an oversized system.

    Bookmark   June 19, 2014 at 6:20PM
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Webfut

Hello again! We are finally getting our heat pump issue resolved next week...They are putting in the 4T HP and the 5T AH. I am wondering what the difference is (if any) between the Tam7"B" that Tigerdunes recommends above and the TAM7"A" that they are talking about installing? I have searched and can't find anything related to the "B" airhandler...? Just want to make sure there are no issues this time! Here is what they have listed this time:

HP - 4TWR7048
AH - TAM7A060

I think we are OK, but like I said, I don't want any drama this time!

Thanks for all your feedback previously and now!

Mike

    Bookmark   August 1, 2014 at 5:28PM
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tigerdunes

Pay attention to the matching AHRI number I gave you. That's what you want.

5768478 Active Systems XR17 TRANE 4TWR7048A1 *AM7B0C60H51 1585 1270 48000 13.00 17.00 47000 9.50 30800 1 HRCU-A-CB 350 1045 Yes

IMO

    Bookmark   August 1, 2014 at 9:17PM
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TomP47

I would like some advice or opinion on a quote received for a 3.5 ton Lennox heat pump model XP17. I live in the NY area and received a quote for $9,500 for the 3.5 ton XP17 with a CBX 40MU048 air handler.
The rep said he would include the backup heat strips necessary for my area.
The price appears to be on the high side but I am just not sure. There are $1,700 in rebates from my local electric company and from Lennox bringing the cost to $7,800 but I get the feeling the price is being inflated because of the rebates.
Any help in this would be greatly appreciated.

    Bookmark   August 6, 2014 at 7:57AM
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tigerdunes

Delete

This post was edited by tigerdunes on Wed, Aug 13, 14 at 14:20

    Bookmark   August 6, 2014 at 8:36AM
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mommom1

need help deciding, very confused in quotes with 2 different companies, I live in southwest Pa, currently have 30 yr old Ge forced air electric. 2 story colonial and full basement. The 2 story is @ 1,000sq ft per floor.
Company 1 gives 3 quotes
carrier 15 seer 3 ton hp #25hbc536a003 and fan coil fv4cnf002 heat strip 20 k non prog thermostat $7320
2nd quote, same as 1st but change fan coil to fb4cnp036 $7,000
3rd quote carrier 13 seer 3t 25hcd336a003 $6490
2nd company quotes
carrier 13 seer and coil $5915 no change in current old thermostat but going to a 3.5 ton
next proposal, 16 infinity two state hp infinity fan coil and infinity thermostat $10,895-1,000 cool cash rebate=$9895 and upped it to a 4ton unit and this includes 10yr parts and labor, the first company is charging $850 for that. Both said existing duct was ok.

    Bookmark   August 13, 2014 at 12:51PM
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tigerdunes

Not considered good forum etiquette piggybacking onto a thread that is not yours.

Start your own thread.

TD

    Bookmark   August 13, 2014 at 1:00PM
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