Miele or LG

pk66January 30, 2012

I have a twenty year old TL washer and a gas dryer - that still work, probably inefficient, but they do the job.

I have not been up-to-date on the FL,TL washer and dryers.

Did some reading here on GW and went shopping for three days and decided on either the Miele FL washer W4842 and its corresponding gas dryer or the LG TL washer WT5101HV (waveforce) and its corresponding gas dryer.

Miele I read is not quite, LG is quite. I'm fine with my TL and wouldn't mind another TL. FL I've read that there are mold issues and smells and that you have to clean the rubber gasket everytime because water collects there (the sales lady said this)

So.....I need help from you guys - to advise me based on your experiences.


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You will hear several here saying that FL have none of those ailments because it has not happened to them.
BUT there are thousands of complaints all over the net stating that FL have several design problems, far too many to just ignore.
They are prone to Mold and Mildew far more than TL are, they are prone to premature bearing failures because of how the force is distributed on the bearing with the tub laying on it side.
They also have problems with seal leaks on the door seal.

I saw more than enough problems and complaints and lawsuits against FL to sway my decision to stay with TL.

I have the LG WT5101HV waveforce and love it so far (only been 4 months though).

Cost was $728

    Bookmark   January 30, 2012 at 5:58PM
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Comparing these two washers is almost like comparing apples to oranges (well ... not quite). One is front loading and one is top loading.

More information from you would be helpful for anyone to give you advice.

People can tell you they have one and it's great but it might be great for them and not you. I have the Miele W4842 and love it - you couldn't give me an HE TL machine ... but that's me. I also have the T9822 gas dryer and love it too. Comparing a German tank like Miele and an LG is also not even.

For example, how much laundry are you washing (family of 5 vs 2 empty nesters would be very different). Do you have a need to wash large items like quilts etc? Do you have a preference for one way of washing vs the other? If you've never used a front loader maybe it will be a hard adjustment for you.

Miele is engineered to take the best possible care of your garments - is that important to you? Miele is engineered to last 20 years - is that important to you?

"I've read that there are mold issues and smells and that you have to clean the rubber gasket every time because water collects there (the sales lady said this)"

Again, you'll get lots of opinions but I can tell you as someone who has used front load washers for 11 years, I've never had a mold or smell issue. You do a few minor maintenance steps to keep a clean machine and that's it. I have never wiped my gasket out in 11 years and never had an issue. I do leave my door open slightly when not in use (common sense dictates you cannot close an air tight door with moisture still present).

What is on your wish list for a new machine? ... maybe start there.

    Bookmark   January 30, 2012 at 6:02PM
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Here is some info for you regarding "smelly machines". It's from a UK site run by appliance professionals. It backs up the theory that it's not the machine but how the machine is handled.

Here's a small excerpt:

"This is a pretty common thing that we service guys encounter, people complain of a bad odour from the washing machine or washer dryer.
First let's start with a simple fact, there's no component that can fail to cause a bad odour from inside a washer. Sorry, but it's not a fault with the machine and it will undoubtedly be from some form of external source and in this article we will explain what causes the problem, how to solve it and how to avoid bad smells from your washing machine."

From another article from these guys;

"And we hear all the time that killer phrase, I've been washing this way for years, but the thing is, technology changes and moves on. Washing machines have advanced, detergents have advanced and the materials used for clothing have advanced but people's attitude and methods often have not."

My mom got a new LG front loader last year after 26 years with the same top loader (and only top loaders before that). It was an adjustment but I walked her through some of this information and she is loving her new machine. She's on septic and she uses so much less water per load. She also feels things are cleaner.

But if you go with newer technology, don't think you can treat it the same as you've been doing. It will take a little learning curve to get the hang of doing things a little differently.

Here is a link that might be useful: Smelly Washing Machines

    Bookmark   January 30, 2012 at 8:12PM
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Thanks @Nunyabiz1 and @livebetter

Ok - I will explain my laundry needs a little better but before I do that I need to explain my laundry room design - the dryer is on the left and the washer is on the right - so Miele doors open out perfectly and if it a TL I can reverse the dryer door and I'll be good. Also the depth of where these machines will be sitting is 29" so the machines shouldn't be too humungous. Otherwise they will come into the doorway (a pocket door) a tiny bit - which is ok but....want to avoid it as much as possible. I also want to vent the dryer from the side of the dryer not the back - since that will push the dryer forward some 4"-5"

Now for our family's laundry needs:
We are three people - with my teenage son in sports. So the machine needs to be able to run a small/tiny load - how long it takes to do the tiny load does not matter.

Other than that - I do laundry once or twice a week, no big quilts or comforters or pillows - just your everyday wear nothing too expensive. I do run the bathroom mats towels, pool towels etc. too. The way I currently do laundry is - I mix all of them up - everyday wear with heavier towels or jeans or one mat - something like that.

I mostly do cold or warm washes. Once in a bluemoon I do hot wash if the entire load is the bathroom mats and kitchen mats which are basically cotton rug type material. Mostly I mix loads - so I end up doing cold or warm wash.

The dryer I use normal less dry - which pretty much dries it good. I hang dry all the polos and 100%cotton shirts. I iron clothes as I need them.

We do want fairly quiet machines (washer/dryer) - sometimes the machine is running while we are getting ready to go to bed - sometimes I do need to run the machines early in the morning while the other two are sleeping because I forgot to wash my son's gym clothes. The laundry room is in the same hall way as the bedrooms.

FL, TL, internal heater, steal drum, plastic drum - I'm just educating myself really fast here! Good article by the way - want that Affresh stuff for my shower stalls - to get the soap scum out!

I am buying a Miele dishwasher so I do realise the Miele brand and its quality, but the LG looks good - hopefully quiter than the Meile and its vibrations (just from what I've read here on GW) and then I'm thinking do I need to spend the money now or just buy another one 10 years down the road. My decision won't be due to budgetary concerns but just thinking things through.

$728 is a great deal - did you buy it online - here I'm finding it for $949 at Fry's and at Homedepot it is $1100 etc. ofcourse then there is the PG&E rebate of $125 so.... probably not bad.

    Bookmark   January 30, 2012 at 10:50PM
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The $728 I got from Sears, they had a sale on them already of like 10% off, then because we bought it online (even though we did that right there IN Sears on their PC)that was and extra 5% so 15% off. Plus we used the Sears charge card which was an extra 5% off, so now we are at 20%

Then we got another 10% off of the whole bill including delivery because at Sears they had the WT5001 listed as being available in the "Metallic" color and that was originally the one we were going to buy.
But my wife wanted both W/D in that color and not white.

So we got the salesman to call and we explained the mix up, we had already ordered both washer and dryer but they were the wrong ones (WT5101HV) because that is what came up when he put the part number in for that color, only after the fact did I notice, hey wait a minute this is like $400 more than it should have been.
So the person at Sears main office gave us another 10% off the entire bill, so we got the WT5101HV for about the same price as the WT5001.
We also had I think it was $25 in Sears reward points or what ever its called. So we ended up getting a little over 30% off.

After all that we got them for $728 each.

I can say that the LG WT5101HV is as quiet a washer as we personally have ever owned, about the only part of the cycle you can actually hear is when it starts spraying the detergent water into the middle while it spins to push the water through the clothing.
We do about 4-5 loads a week at most and spend maybe 4-5 hours tops doing laundry, old W/D we did 6-9 loads a week and took at least 10-12 hours doing laundry.
So saving LOTS of time an no doubt quite a bit of electricity each month.

So we have done probably around 80 loads so far and not a problem. Only one load about a week after we got it started to go off balance so it stopped itself, jiggled a bit added more water, swished back and forth and then started to spin again and fixed itself, continued the spin without a problem.
Since then its never needed to self correct, all the spins have been rock solid and the clothes come out so dry from the washer that it only takes a few minutes to dry them.

As for the dryer vent, we also put ours in a space that sounds similar I had to get a "Flat" 90 degree dryer vent to attach to the dryer so instead of pushing it out from wall about 5" it only needs to be about 2".

I would say stick with TL, get an internal heater, stainless drum.
I have no idea how these will hold up over time but so far they are great and show no signs of being lemons at all.
They seem to be very well made.
We also do mostly cold water wash, probably 85% of what we wash is in cold water and this washer is outstanding with cold water.
The 2 Hot Water cycles are "Bright Whites" 122 degrees which is 90 minutes and Sanitary 158 degrees which is 3 hours.

Here is a link that might be useful: Flat dryer vent

    Bookmark   January 31, 2012 at 9:58AM
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"I forgot to wash my son's gym clothes"

Ok first off - get that kid washing his own clothes! LOL ...

I can't speak very detailed about the LG (with actual facts) so I'll tell you what I know about the Miele.

I'll give you this link to a very informative video about Miele machines. I found this helpful when I was deciding between Miele W4842 and the LG WM3885.


If washing a small load is important - Miele will do that very well and efficiently.

"Miele machines have fuzzy logic so you can wash a small load as economically as a large one - you do not have to save up 16 pairs of jeans to do a load which saves you time and money."

When you switch to an HE machine (whether TL or FL) a lot less water will be used to wash your items. Because of this an internal heater becomes very important. The cold drum and clothes will absorb heat from the little bit of water. Only Miele will guarantee your selected temp for the duration of your wash cycle. This was a big reason I went with the Miele. Note: Miele won’t use the heater in the normal program but in all others.

I wash kitchen tea towels on hot with a good detergent for whites and they come out perfectly clean. No stains. People often ask me how I get my family's socks so white. I don't bleach them - ever. I do use oxygen bleach and higher temps with beautiful results.

As for some quality points; Miele uses and enamelled front while others are painted, Miele uses a cast iron cradle while others are concrete, Miele has a special fibreglass outer tub while others are plastic.

As for noise, my machine is installed in a basement laundry (tile over concrete). It is very stable. The machine itself makes noise (don't they all?) but the spin is very solid (very little shaking). Maybe someone else who has theirs installed above ground can chime in with the noise level.

Only you can decide how important quality and longevity are to you. I went with Miele on the belief that it is built better than most and will stand the test of time. Also, hoping that it did take better care of delicate garments. It washes my dry clean only items beautifully (I've washed pants and shirts that are dry clean only).

From that same website I quoted from earlier, they discuss the repercussions of cheap appliances made to fail prematurely ... it's sad really.

"In the trade it never ceases to amaze us how so many people go out and buy a cheap washing machine then expect it to outlast a few pairs of designer jeans that cost more than the washer did! That's just insane.

What's also a bit nuts is that a lot of people also expect a £200 washing machine to perform the same as a washing machine cost over £800. By that analogy a milk float should perform like a Ferrari, but we all accept that isn't the case."

I don't think how "cheaply" you get a machine is anything to speak of. Do you really want a cheap machine or a good machine that works well and will last?

"Of course consumers, looking for lower prices, are given what they ask for in terms of price but it is all too often not pointed out the sacrifices that they are making to obtain the low pricing. Only when the machines are used, often for some time, that the deficiencies become apparent by which time it's too late to do much about it."

"But the cost to the environment is just massive. The raw materials being consumed to feed the sales machines in conjunction with the impact of all these appliances not being recycled is far more damaging and polluting than any energy savings being made by the newer appliances ..."

Good luck with your decision. It’s never easy.

Here is a link that might be useful: The Great Washing Machine Swindle

    Bookmark   January 31, 2012 at 10:30AM
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I prefer a reasonably priced machine that last 10+ years personally.
I could buy 3 of the LG's for the price of 1 Miele.
You can also just as easily spend $2000+ for a washing machine and not have it last more than a year or so before it starts to fall apart.
Price is in no way whatsoever a guide to quality.
I wish it was, that would make buying everything way easier.

You can just as easily buy a $2000+ lemon as you can a $700 lemon.

I just looked on Amazon just for the hell of it, put in "Miele Washer" and came up with I think it was about 10 washers on a search page, there were 11 reviews total.
Out of 11, 7 were 1 star reviews.
So sounds to me like they have just as many lemons that hit the market as any other brand, they just cost twice as much.

Which frankly I am rather surprised at because I have always considered virtually anything made in Germany as a general rule to be top quality. The Germans seem to have a very good work ethic and strive for craftsmanship/quality over cheapness & higher sales.
Unlike American companies that hire the Chinese to make their product and give them the cheap specifications to go by, its not China's fault, they are making exactly what the American company asked for.

    Bookmark   January 31, 2012 at 6:17PM
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Here we go again ... because I say I like Miele you have to get on here and say why it sucks. Why I'm too stupid to see all the reviews on Amazon. Wow ... I don't know have I've got along all these years without this kind of sharp insight.

Firstly, we are not talking about lemons. That is a discussion unto itself. Or course, anything can have/be a lemon.

"Price is in no way whatsoever a guide to quality."

Really?? On what planet? Ever heard the saying, "you get what you pay for?" A lot of times that is very true (not talking about lemons).

I guess the fact that Miele is considered to be the best around the world is just a fluke ... so many stupid people ... they should start reading more reviews and make more informed decisions ... wow ...

Did all you GW Miele owners know you were duped? Did you know you paid too much money for an obvious piece of crap?

Please don't start with the THOUSANDS of people wrote about it on the Internet so it must be true argument ... I thought we finally got past that.

"I prefer a reasonably priced machine that last 10+ years personally."

Good for you.

    Bookmark   January 31, 2012 at 7:34PM
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Initially, I did not want a FL washer due to the horror stories about mold & mildew. Our FL is not quite a year old, so time will tell. I researched and found LOTS of people who've got FLs for years, decades, with no problems.
My guess is that the American public was not properly educated in the use of an FL. Wiping down the gasket is no big deal. I take an old thin washcloth, wipe the gasket and inside the fold, and I'm done, and I leave the door open. NO gasket cleaners, nada. I watch my detergent dosing, do not use fabric softener anyway (even before the FL washer). I made sure I bought a FL with an internal water heater. Only time will tell.

I know someone who always closed the lid of their TL washer and it grew mold. Duh.

The Miele W3033 is a smaller capacity washer, and may suit the smaller loads better.

I can't say which washer will serve you better. We all do our research, make a decision, spend our hard-earned money, and hope it is the best machine for each of our needs.

    Bookmark   February 1, 2012 at 10:06AM
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Never has anything whatsoever to do with YOU, has to do with the facts.
I never said Miele "sucks" in fact I am certain they are excellent just stated they are not the nirvana of perfection you seem to think they are is all.
If they were then I wouldn't see so many bad reviews for them.
You just went completely off the deep end simply because I said you can just as easily get a $2000 lemon as you can a $700 Lemon.
Need to chill, you take things way too personally, you're getting all bent over nothing, its not good for your health.

    Bookmark   February 1, 2012 at 2:36PM
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There is also another saying.

"You don't always get what you paid for"

    Bookmark   February 1, 2012 at 3:03PM
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"has to do with the facts"

If you would actually post some facts, maybe I would find your input interesting instead of arrogant.

"just stated they are not the nirvana of perfection you seem to think they are"

Could you point out exactly where I said they were "nirvana of perfection"? Oh ya, that would be an actual fact ...

    Bookmark   February 1, 2012 at 3:58PM
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Pk66 - I have have had an LG FL for 5 years and am wishing it dead so I can replace it with a Miele or an Asko. My LG has done nothing wrong and not a single issue but it lacks a lot of features of the Miele models and just seems flimsy somehow. Smaller loads are a challenge for it. It will get wonky and have a hard time balancing itself if I'm not running a fair size load. As for price, I've been comparing features and I just don't see a deal breaking difference when compared feature to feature.

    Bookmark   February 1, 2012 at 6:18PM
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Thanks for all the insights and also the very helpful links and videos. Yes I totally agree I need to get THAT kid to do his own laundry!

By the way I'm notorious at opening my TL to add a sock or a dish rag after I have already started the wash - can I do that with a FL?

I assume thats what the pause button is for. Confusing thing is the TL has a pause button too. How long do you have to wait before I can unlock the lid open?

I am planning to go to the Miele Gallery here and actually look at the machine(s). I've already looked at the LG at the store so I have a good feel for it.

By the way I'm planning to get the dryer vent installed on the side - not the back - so I save some inches on the depth - I'm assuming its ok with both these machines. Any idea how much space on the side I might need - is there a special kit for it?

Thanks all of you for your time. I'm so glad I'm not solely dependent on the sale peoples alone!!! (like 20 years ago!)

    Bookmark   February 1, 2012 at 11:31PM
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No you can not add clothes in a FL, none that I have seen anyway because the door is sealing water in.

On the LG TL it takes just a few seconds.

Dont think it will make much difference installing the vent on the side, the exhaust comes out the back of the dryer regardless.
Personally if you are having the vent installed I would line up the dryer exactly where you want it, mark the wall and install the dryer vent exactly inline with the vent on the dryer.
That way it is a straight shot right out of the dryer and into the vent, that way you can get it very close to the wall and there are no 90 degree bends anywhere to catch lint.
I replaced all of the old dryer vent in our house with new straight pipe tubing. Got rid of that horrible corrugated cheap plastic manure that catches tons of lint and falls apart in a few years.
The straight pipe has a much better air flow, easier to clean out, last virtually forever.

You could put a straight pipe coming right out of the wall and slide the dryer vent right into it and no bends or anything involved.

    Bookmark   February 2, 2012 at 12:38AM
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I can add an item with my LG unless it deems the water or temperature to be too high. I am always forgetting to throw something in! My mother had a Cabrio TL and that was a sour point for her as she could not.

Nunyabiz - when you pause yours and open the lid will it drain the water and restart? Can you open in during hot washes?

    Bookmark   February 2, 2012 at 6:33AM
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Yes, you can add clothes in a FL once the cycle has begun. I do it all the time with mine.
I cannot speak for all brands, however, so will not make a blanket statement about something like that. When you find a brand you like, look at the owners manual (either online or at the store) and check for that feature.

I can add the odd sock or whatever during a laundry cycle with my FL washer. I use the "Pause" button. My FL will now allow me to do this if the water level is high (applies to certain cycles only) or if the temperature has reached the target temp with a HOT wash which is for the consumer's safety. Other than that, no problem.

    Bookmark   February 2, 2012 at 7:08AM
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Nope, doesn't drain water or anything just starts right back where it left off, at least on the few times that I have added anything.

    Bookmark   February 2, 2012 at 8:06AM
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"No you can not add clothes in a FL"

Yes you can. That is a fact as well ...

Only under certain circumstances will it now allow it and those are for safety reasons. As stated by the other actual FL owners, if the water level is too high (only a few programs have such high water levels) and when the water has reached an "unsafe" temperature.

For most everyday washing, pausing it and opening it is not an issue.

This is one of those things where doing your homework is good. I would never tell someone what to buy. All of these details are personal and you must figure out (if you can) what you think works best for you and how you do laundry.

Thank goodness we all have choice :)

    Bookmark   February 2, 2012 at 8:50AM
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@ livebetter

You can't fix stupid... :)

@ Nunyabiz1
No you can not add clothes in a FL, none that I have seen anyway because the door is sealing water in.Wow, you can't do that on your machine? Too bad, as you can easily add items at any stage prior to the cycle in a Miele so long as the water doesn't exceed 130F - at that point, the door will lock for safety reasons.
They are prone to Mold and Mildew far more than TL are, they are prone to premature bearing failures because of how the force is distributed on the bearing with the tub laying on it side. I'd love to see your source on this.
You will hear several here saying that FL have none of those ailments because it has not happened to them. You will also see complaints online blaming the machine for something that is clearly user error. Clearly those who don't have issues are doing something right. Instead of dismissing those without problems, why not see what they are doing differently than simply bury your head in the sand and plead ignorance?
They are prone to Mold and Mildew far more than TL areAgain, would love to see your source for this information. From the issues I've helped diagnose, all were due to excessive use of fabric softener and cold water washes. Front loaders have been proven technology in Europe for many decades, but they also know how to use them.
I prefer a reasonably priced machine that last 10+ years personally. And which reasonably priced front loader do you know of that will last for 10+ years? Sources please.

    Bookmark   February 4, 2012 at 1:21PM
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Like I said "none that I have ever seen".
I can add clothes at anytime on every machine I have ever owned because they have all been TL.

source for FL being prone to mold, bearing failure and seal leaks is literally 1000s of reviews all stating the same thing and several lawsuits suing manufacturers of FL for same thing.
You can look it up as well as I can, you just don't want to believe it is all because you have not had any troubles with yours which is great.

I don't know of even a high priced FL that would last 10 years.

I am talking about TL.

Are you fixed now?

    Bookmark   February 4, 2012 at 3:28PM
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So I've been watching the debate between Nunyabiz and the others for a while now. And I must say, it's a blast...like a trainwreck. You can't look away even though you know it'll be a tragedy in the end. My undergrad degree is in philosophy and because of that, nothing bothers me more than a claim that is unjustified. Mr. Biz has claimed mold, bearing failure, and seal leaks. His justification is "1000s of reviews and lawsuits." In this thread he cited amazon.com. For sh*ts and giggles, I checked it out. A search of "miele washer" on amazon.com will not yield eleven results, as claimed, but 4 pages. I did not go through all 4 pages, but on the first page alone, the search brought up 4 reviewed product, and one recieved a one star review. And, it turns out, it was a bogus review anyway. The link is listed below if you want to check it out. Then I googled "front load bearing failure." Pages of results. Then I googled "Top load bearing failure." More pages of results. Seems as if the substantiation is quickly wearing, sir. What I gather is this: Washing machines have parts. Parts break. Life goes on. It doesn't *seem* like TL is more or less prone to crap going wrong than FL. I know plenty of people who have cheap old TLs that have lasted 20+ years no issues. I also know plenty of people who have owned FLs for at least ten years (being that FLs are kind of a hip, new, trendyish thing on this side of the pond), also no issues. Now, Nunyabiz claims to have never owned a FL, so I guess I'm confused as to why he is on a one-man crusade to destroy the reputation of said FLers. I guess I could understand if he had a terrible childhood memory involving one, but, come one man, what the heck did those poor FLers ever do to you? I'm certainly happy that you love your LG HE TL...damn I ran out of acronyms. But let those who are just as enamored with their Miele FL rock that love too. Ya'll have a great day, and be sure to tell your Mom I asked how she's doin.

Here is a link that might be useful: amazon search

    Bookmark   February 4, 2012 at 6:57PM
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"Like I said "none that I have ever seen". "

Could you clarify how many you've seen in action? Since I know you've never actually owned one and on a previous thread stated you knew only two people who did ... does that make two total you've seen? And you watched these two machines from start to finish so you know for a fact that they didn't open? Fascinating ... since I've never seen one that didn't and I've seen a few more than two.

"My undergrad degree is in philosophy and because of that, nothing bothers me more than a claim that is unjustified."

Thank you @arch13! Exactly my frustration with that poster. He talks a big game like he knows so much and he's enlightening us all with his ability to Google things. As if we were unable to figure out how to do that.

He thinks we "don't want to believe the truth" because we've been lucky anomalies of front load use.

I also checked out Amazon just to prove to myself (yet again) that it meant nothing.

"I'm confused as to why he is on a one-man crusade to destroy the reputation of said FLers"

Because he's right (in his mind) and he can't understand why everyone else is not agreeing with him - even though on this whole forum no one has stepped up to agree with him he still thinks we (the FL sycophant) are wrong.

I feel bad for all the posters who've had their thread hijacked by this train wreck but I just can't let those grossly over exaggerated claims go unchecked.

Anyway, arch13, thanks for the laugh!

    Bookmark   February 4, 2012 at 7:47PM
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I too find the banter hard to resist. Life would be boring if we all had the same opinions.

    Bookmark   February 4, 2012 at 8:21PM
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I too find the banter hard to resist. Life would be boring if we all had the same opinions.

    Bookmark   February 5, 2012 at 7:38AM
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You realize of course the link on Amazon shows exactly what I said. LOL
There are like 11 reviews of Miele washers and about 7 are 1 star. How embarrassing for you.

Rest of it is your total lack of how to use Google I guess.

I have never once claimed to own a FL, I have in fact clearly stated why I have never and so far will never own one. I am also not on a one man quest to destroy anything, just stating MY OPINION no more no less.
Don't like it? I could not care less.

I have seen so many bad reviews on FL and lawsuits against them to be WAY more than enough for me to not want to buy one.
But I guess all those people are just delusional or are lying for unknown reason.
Either way it is meaningless, I prefer TL, 75++% of the USA prefers TL and a decent percentage of that 25% that buy them regret it.
So I state so in MY OPINION.

    Bookmark   February 5, 2012 at 11:50AM
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"I have never once claimed to own a FL"

Yet you were the first one to jump on here and say emphatically they don't open.

That's what makes your posts arrogant (and worthless IMHO).

"Rest of it is your total lack of how to use Google I guess."

These are the comments that make you sound like a j***.

Trust that we know how to Google. We are just intelligent enough to decipher what we read and not take it for face value. If you can't read deeper ... well ...

We all know someone like you ... you know it all ... you are so smart. We're so lucky you found this forum and can steer people in the right direction.

It is your opinion - everyone is allowed to form their own - get over it and move on ...

It's obvious to others that your intent is not to share your experience and leave it at that. Notice I used the word "experience" - that is what people here want to know - not how you construed what you read on the Internet (we're all capable of reading).

    Bookmark   February 5, 2012 at 12:16PM
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Well I did claim that I did not go through all four pages. And I did provide the link so people could go through all the reviews if they wanted to. I guess my point was that some of the poor reviews on amazon were bogus (people saying they bought a machine that was a lemon years before that model even was in production). I apologize if that wasn't obvious. Surprisingly, I'm not embarrassed at all. I do, however, wish to point out that anyone's *opinion* of a particular product that was formed *without* any experience at all of that particular product ought to be taken with a grain of salt. If I were in the market for a new BMW (haha, in my wildest dreams) and somebody told me that although they, themselves have never owned a BMW, they had heard and/or read online that BMWs are prone to mechanical problems, I probably wouldn't take their advice too seriously. That opinion is based on hearsay. It doesn't stand up in a court of law (yeah, that's right, I watch Judge Judy), so it shouldn't hold up in everyday life as a *valid* opinion.

    Bookmark   February 5, 2012 at 12:24PM
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@ arch13

You are 100% spot on! I have no doubt that Nunyabiz1 must have been molested by a FL at some point in his/her life... rotfl

@ Nunyabiz1

Nobody knows how to use Google or read Amazon reviews except for you. You know how FLs work yet don't own one and don't use one on a regular basis. We should trust your expert use of the internet and take your word for the thousands of bad reviews of FLs compared to the thousands of glowing reviews for FLs. We should also take your word for there being many more bearing failures on FL machines than TL due to the the fact that the drum sits horizontally versus vertically... even though an entire continent has been using FLs for decades without such issues. Are you so intellectually limited to think that drums can only be properly supported in a vertical fashion? Is it so beyond the nose on your face to think that something can be designed to spin on its side? Wow, I now feel sorry for all of those cement mixing trucks that should ferry their contents vertically... or god forbid the millions of dryers that seem to handle horizontal tumbling just fine... Maybe we should be worried about the bearings in our car wheels and axles - using your argument, shouldn't our wheels be installed vertically too?

If there's anything amusing here, it's that one person is 100% right all of the time and everyone else is wrong or doing something wrong. You know, my mom always says that when you keep pointing your fingers at those around you, eventually that finger comes back to point at you. I think we've reached that point! :)

    Bookmark   February 5, 2012 at 12:31PM
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@ pk66

Unlike others here, I won't generalize my situation to apply to everyone. I can only convey the experience I've had with my machine - after all, how can anyone tell you anything other than their own personal experience? Anything else is vicarious. I've had my Miele W4842 since 2009, so going on three years this March. Never once have I wiped the gasket clean and I don't have mold, mildew or odors. Prior to the Miele I had an Asko for 7 years. I also never wiped down the gasket or danced any magic two-steps to keep that machine working well. Ten years of back-to-back FL use and not one issue with bearings.

I chose Miele due to their quality reputation, gentle fabric care and given my great experience with a Miele dishwasher I bought six years ago. After Miele launched it's honeycomb drum, other manufacturers like Bosch, Samsung and LG launched their own special drums with diamond shapes, tear drops, etc. in order to make the same claim of gentleness. Miele is an industry leader in this regard. However, Miele extended the honeycomb concept to the dryer as well, but inverted the honeycombs to offer greater care in the dryer where there is no need for water drainage. The clothes literally ride on a "pillow of air" and surface area contact with the drum is reduced.

The other thing to keep in mind is any top loader is going to require one or more "agitators" to properly turn over the clothes. This can be a traditional agitator or what you see in many of the HE top loaders - one or more large plates that rotate in order to move the laundry. Intuitively this feels wrong to me because these agitators or plates look like they cause greater friction and wear on your clothes than a simple, horizontally tumbling drum.

There will always be people with a hidden agenda coming into these threads trying to cause a conflict. I would be surprised if they weren't this way in other aspects of their lives as well - stuff like this is rarely isolated to forum behavior. Don't let someone else's irrational fears scare you from making a rational and informed decision. Do your own research instead of relying on the statements of others, and read the reviews - good and bad.

    Bookmark   February 5, 2012 at 12:54PM
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Thanks everyone.

I came here because I never owned a FL and my TL knowledge and experience is from 20years ago!

I'm scared now! I will do my research and based on my needs spacewise and laundry needs like quiet machines, cold wash, opening the door, small loads - I will see what works best I guess.

Looks like each one loves their machines whether it is LG TL or Miele FL.

    Bookmark   February 6, 2012 at 2:09PM
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"Yet you were the first one to jump on here and say emphatically they don't open."

Saying "none that I have ever seen" is not emphatically anything, just that I have not seen any that do, every FL I have actually seen you could only open the door either almost immediately after starting it or when it is basically too late to add anything. But I haven't seen that many FL because I am not interested in them at all.

You need to take a pill and just stop reading my post because you have serious issues.

PK66, Do your research, check out FL VERY thoroughly and you will soon see what I am talking about.

Check out the LGWT5101, then look at ANY FL reviews.
I found time and time again the very same problems kept coming up regardless of brand and they have been the same problems for many many years.
Premature Bearing Failures
Door Seal Leaks

The FL design is prone to these problems, either that or every reviewer saying so for the past 15+ years are all lying as some collective conspiracy against FL washing machines.



    Bookmark   February 7, 2012 at 9:39AM
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"you have serious issues ..."

Ah ... I believe you are the one with issues. Luckily most people reading your posts can see that.

You are in complete denial.

When you make blanket statements like, "No you can not add clothes in a FL, none that I have seen anyway because the door is sealing water in." You have not had enough experience (by your own words) with a FL to even make such a statement. You know what they call guys like that?

You make your "intelligence" very clear the more you keep talking.

OP already said she/he would do their research and you're still droning on about your "opinion" ... wow ... let it go man ...

    Bookmark   February 7, 2012 at 10:14AM
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FWIW....over seven years with Duet 9400 FL....a very popular model back than and one of those most cited for......

Premature Bearing Failures
Door Seal Leaks"

....by whoever wrote the reviews nunyabiz has been reading.

I've had not a hint of any of those things. The machine has operated 100% as-represented from day one until today. Best-cleaning machine I've ever owned in the last four decades. Inside and outside it is as squeaky-clean as if it just came out of the box. If it craps out tomorrow, I'll be back to say so but it's been terrific so far. And I can add stuff after the cycle starts except when I choose an exceptionally hot cycle and the heat has risen to a pre-determined point.

So how come my same-as-everyone-else's machine is perfect and the ones nunyabiz has been reading about are terrible? I don't know but, from what I've read, suspect bad installs (very common) and/or operator error. All I did was confirm proper install and read the manual and did what it said. Two other family members have had the same good experience with this machine for three and five years that I have had in my seven-plus. I'm not in the business. All I know is my FL machine's fine. I suspect most of the FL machines are fine. I suspect that, like most products, those who are dissatisfied tend to cry into the aether more frequently than those who are satisfied.

Glad nunyabiz likes his LG/TL....but his actual experience is pretty shallow at this point.

Agree personal research is required. There's lots of information the mfgr's don't tell their salespeople or us even at this late date.

    Bookmark   February 7, 2012 at 11:00AM
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I tend to wonder how many of the mold and mechanical issues are caused by individuals misusing the appliance. I know that sounds harsh but a FL or a HE TL are completely different than a conventional TL.

The HE detergents bottles recommend huge doses and most people assume they have very soiled clothing. The cycles are different in HE too. If I'm running a small load the max spin speed isn't needed. On my old TL everything needed max spin.

Even though it is new technology to them, do they read the manual? And as stated above, most people will take the time to write a negative review. How many take the time to leave positive feedback?

    Bookmark   February 7, 2012 at 11:29AM
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    Bookmark   February 7, 2012 at 11:32AM
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Suspect a shallow yawn, too.

    Bookmark   February 7, 2012 at 11:41AM
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What r u? Twelve?

That's the response I'd expect from a "know it all". Always got to get the last (useless) word in there ... LOL ...

    Bookmark   February 7, 2012 at 11:53AM
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No, 54.
Just tired of people constantly complaining about a simple response to a post, no more no less.
and those same people are in every respect doing FAR worse than I in the so called "know it all" dept.

I am a retired Marine Biologist that spent the past 25+ years in scientific research at Scripps Inst, research has been my life and I am damn good at it.
My opinions are based on hours upon hours of research and I shared that research here and that is all I have done other than when I know directly because I own the appliance.

Some non FL sycophants I am sure will appreciate it and be able to comprehend what I am saying.
I have never once claimed to know it all, never once claimed that I owned a FL, never once claimed anything more than what I have garnered from 100s of reviews, others opinions, professional reviews, repairmen and class action lawsuits against companies because some problems are so wide spread.

That is all nothing but hard data to me.

My "opinion" is based on that data.

If your little sycophant feelings get hurt by someone stating nothing but fact then Oh Well.

Several of you here are just complete AH's with serious issues and extremely thin skin and apparently incapable of comprehending simple English.

I suggest you just ignore my post as clearly they are of no interest to you at all.
I certainly try my best to ignore at least 2 or 3 of you as much as I possibly can.

    Bookmark   February 7, 2012 at 3:19PM
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A day without a retired Marine Biologist that spent the past 25+ years in scientific research at Scripps Inst and is damn good at it is a day without sunshine.

"....complete AH's with serious issues..."

I've always encouraged everyone to write whatever they want. Still do -- including you. However, I think a little self-check is in order here. Suggesting you dial it down a bit.

    Bookmark   February 7, 2012 at 3:31PM
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Sorry. I don't mean to drag this on, but I can't let it go. Now he's given websites to justify his claims. The Wikipedia entrance does, indeed support his hypothesis...

"recent studies of consumer-reviews posted across the internet show a trend for U.S. front-loading washers to have bearing failure problems normally within the first 6
years and repair cost are close to replacement cost, which is the wisest choice.[citation needed] The symptoms are louder noises while spin-rinsing and then soiled clothes shortly before complete failure, if the bearing grease gets into the inner tub. So, the expected life of today's washing machine has decreased by about 10 years compared to 30 years ago.[citation needed]"

...notice, however, that in the wikipedia entrance, whomever wrote that section did not cite those claims. Again, jeopardizing the integrity of the statement.

Also, he has brought up in this thread and in others that the majority of the US consumers own TL, and that this somehow speaks to the reliability of FL vs. TL (which I don't quite understand). But IF you are going to play the numbers game, let's take a look at all the washing machines in the world (all the stats that follow were taken from Wikipedia)...The market share of FL in the US (pop ~300 mil) is 35%. The market share of FL in Europe (pop ~730 mil) is 90%. It looks like FL ownership worldwide is much higher than TL. So if you're going to claim a correlation between numbers (again, which I totally don't buy) and reliability, it looks like FL are actually MORE reliable.

Again, sorry, I just can't resist pointing out the flaws in his logic. What's more, whenever somebody questions said logic, he shoots below the belt and starts throwing insults. Silly.

    Bookmark   February 7, 2012 at 4:26PM
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"clearly they are of no interest to you at all"

Oh ... but they are of interest to me - this is why I will not ignore them.

When you post exaggerated, inaccurate information ... I will exercise my right to challenge you.

Unless you're a retired washing machine engineer, I don't care what you did for a living - although maybe this sheds light on why you feel superior in the Internet reading skill.

You don't like when people challenge your opinion - that's when the ugly starts.

You have yours, I have mine and others have theirs. Let it be ... we can agree to disagree but every time you tell someone your opinion, I'm bound to be here too giving my opinion.

We are all aware that you feel what you read on the Internet is "data". I disagree - it's not that simple.

Unlike you, I don't tell people what to do and I don't claim to know about other machines that I've never owned. I limit my comments to my personal experience and if I do reference something I read on line - I let others judge that content for themselves.

It's arrogant to assume just because I think something is true others should too. This seems to be the fundamental issue you cannot grasp. When you grasp that simple concept, perhaps we can all go back to posting as normal, helpful individuals and let others use their own intellect to form their own opinions.

    Bookmark   February 7, 2012 at 4:38PM
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I have no problem with a challenge to my opinion, just don't see the need to be attacked is all.
and you attack, attack, attack on everything, regardless what it is because for some odd reason you have a chip on your shoulder about every sentence I say.

I have never told someone to do anything, I have done nothing but state my opinion and made that very clear to those that are sane.

You also apparently can not grasp that there are 100s and 100s out there that are all saying exactly the opposite of what you are.
Those are the opinions of which I am bringing forth as far as FL washers go.

To deny there is a mold issue or bearing issues with FL washers is basically like denying the Earth is far older than 6000 years.
Yet there are millions of delusional psychotics that amazingly do just that.
I will just stick to reality.

Yep I am throwing insults, why not as several here are doing it on every post continuously to me and have been for months so GFY.

    Bookmark   February 7, 2012 at 7:00PM
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You're waaaay over the line here, my supposed-scientific friend. Suggest you back off right now. An apology would be a good place to start. This is bad news....and you know it.

    Bookmark   February 7, 2012 at 7:23PM
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Well ... you continue to show everyone here what kind of person you are. You seem to be the only one here lowering yourself to that level.

@asolo, this type of person will never apologize - he can't see the part he's playing - he's the victim here.

Why is it you had no response for @arch13 who brought forward some valid points. I guess you didn't like what he/she had to say so you ignored it.

If you've never told someone what to do then what did you mean by, "I would say stick with TL"? I didn't tell the OP to go with a FL - I chose to let her/him make their own informed decision.

Again, I think you're a little delusional about what you say and how it comes across to those reading here.

    Bookmark   February 7, 2012 at 8:19PM
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I actually do think he had a response for me (and/or all of us) lol...that being "GFY"

    Bookmark   February 7, 2012 at 8:32PM
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back to original post, on the noise issue: My DH always had to close the laundry room door (past our kitchen, next to the family room) when he was watching TV, the noise from our old Kenmore TL bothered him so much.

Enter our Miele. He actually had to ask if it was on, and that was with the door open. It is not a silent machine - there are distinctive sounds when it drains, when water is rinsing, and on the final spin. It is significantly less noise than our old TL. I can leave the door open and my DH won't complain. Are there quieter machines? Possibly. But some of the noise like the pipes opening to load water woudl occur regardless of the machine. And I continue to be impressed, 2 months in, at how absolutely solid the spin cycle is on the Miele. My old TL would go out of balance if you looked at it crossways. This thing handles a huge load like a champ and never blinks.

    Bookmark   February 7, 2012 at 11:22PM
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And Nunyabiz, I would love to have a *respectable* debate with you on new earth vs. old earth (I certainly do not think a laundry room forum is the appropriate place). For the record, I think the evidence for old earth is more compelling. However, the new earth folks do have some pretty great points that need to be reckoned with. While I do not agree with their position, they are far from being delusional psychotics.

    Bookmark   February 8, 2012 at 10:18AM
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Another thread in the toilet.

    Bookmark   February 8, 2012 at 10:28AM
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Anyone that believes the Earth is 6000 years old has ZERO data to back that delusion up, is completely ignoring 100+ years of scientific data from millions of scientist the world over.

and yes they would be Delusional Psychotics because their reasoning for that "belief" is that some fictional sun god waved his magic wand and spewed a few choice words of Hebrew in order to poof not just the Earth but all the trillions upon trillions of stars, planets and even the dark matter and space in between into magical existence.
There is zero difference between that belief than there is of what the Aztecs believed or pretty much any other religious nonsense.
But you are correct, this is not the place for that discussion.

    Bookmark   February 11, 2012 at 2:10PM
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Sound of flushing.

    Bookmark   February 11, 2012 at 2:43PM
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wow ...

    Bookmark   February 11, 2012 at 2:51PM
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"Anyone that believes the Earth is 6000 years old has ZERO data to back that delusion up, is completely ignoring 100+ years of scientific data from millions of scientist the world over."

At least I can agree with this person about something! :)

    Bookmark   February 11, 2012 at 3:27PM
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A nudge back toward the rails? I think we can all agree that the laundry machines we own were created with the characteristic of being capable of operation by people of divergent beliefs.

    Bookmark   February 11, 2012 at 5:39PM
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So, just wondering what OP ended up buying. Once new vs old earth or Nazis come up it's never the same. This forum is truly unique.

    Bookmark   February 13, 2012 at 6:22PM
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good question!!

I, personally, don't understand Nunyabiz's vehemence about this whole topic.

I've had front loading washing machines since 1994. Last I noted that was nearly twenty years (okay, 18). I've had more than one. One of them was a 'so so' cleaner (but to be fair, I dont' use Tide or All, but a more gentle detergent, because of allergies).


1. All have cleaned, one 'okay' the other phenomenal.
2. NONE have been subject to mildew.
3. In this time I've saved tens of thousands of gallons of water.
4. In this time I've saved hundreds of pounds of soap, lessening environmental impact.
5. In this time I haven't subjected my clothes to a machine with an agitator, which has allowed me to keep clothing far longer than otherwise I might have, as there was less premature wear.

It works for me. For others, a top loader meets their needs and desires.

(So did the Nazis live on the old earth or the new one?)

    Bookmark   March 13, 2012 at 10:39PM
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Ok. I bought the Miele pair washer and dryer. (W4842, T9822)

The installer from Miele said I could use any detergent HE or non-HE, but to use very little of it. Is that true? (I told him I've a 20year old washer and I use Tide - he said thats fine)

He also told me not put "Bounce" sheets in the dryer - they will clog and melt on the lint trap.

What do you use for your Miele washer and dryer? Thanks

    Bookmark   March 25, 2012 at 10:01AM
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@pk66, I've used ALL kinds of things in my Miele washer but I tried the Miele Care detergents and just love them. Honestly, I find them just perfect. Smell is nice and light (and is a lovely smell) and they clean beautifully.

I follow Miele's dosing recommendation on the package and dose down if my loads are smaller. I find the Miele detergent recommends less than others to begin with.

You would be fine with almost any HE detergent I'm guessing. Many hear love Persil (German version from Henkel). I find the smell unpleasant and too strong but many love it. Many here also use Tide HE and are happy with that.

I am using the Miele Ultra Care powders mostly (and I'm really happy with them). I haven't used powder exclusivley for many years but I really enjoy these ones. However, you do need liquid for certain loads like comforters (which is another great setting) and express. I have the Miele Ultra Color liquid as well.

Miele also makes special detergents for items like down and outerwear. I've used several and they all seem to work very well.

Dosing is very important to master correctly. It's very easy to overdose as there is so little water it is not very forgiving to a little extra detergent.

Consider your water quality, dirt level of the load and size of the load. Start with the less is more philosophy and add more as needed.

I'm attaching a UK article for you to read regarding smelly washers and how to avoid them. There is detergent and dosing info in there that might help you.

As for fabric softener, I stopped using dryer sheets years ago when I read that they never decompose. I did use Shaklee FS until they changed the formula and I really dislike the new scent. I have a little left that I'm still using on my kids clothes (I just loved the old smell). I use Downy Free & Clear (just a little) or Seventh Generation or Miele FS.

I use very little FS in only certain loads. Never on towels or sheets. I buy my linens at a very nice shop and they explained to me how FS "clogs" the pores of fine cotton. Fine cotton over time gets softer as it's washed. I find this true with my nice percale cotton sheets. My Turkish and Egyptian towels feel just great without FS.

Good luck with your new machines. I certainly hope you love them. I enjoy mine all the time.

I might suggest you select sensitive (extra rinse) all the time. I leave it on permanently. It's up to you though. The European machines do more rinses than ours do so I try to do as many as possible. Proper rinsing is key (as is proper dosing) to not having any residual detergent left.

My fav feature is the delay time. I washed white towels this morning and did extra white, extended and extra rinse. That takes almost two hours. I set it last night and woke up to clean towels ready for the dryer. LOVE it :)

Also, keep in mind that your Miele will not use the interanl heater on the "normal" setting. If you want to ensure a warm, very warm, hot or sanitary setting - choose any other program.

Here is a link that might be useful: Smelly Washing Machines

    Bookmark   March 25, 2012 at 10:37AM
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"The installer from Miele said I could use any detergent HE or non-HE...."

Strongly disagree. Use HE. You'll save yourself loads of headaches.

"...very little of it..." (Whatever that means...LEARN what works for water quality and load characteristics, please.)

By all means learn what the appropriate dose is for your water quality, load sizes, and soil levels. Assuming this machine is new to you, you may be surprised at how little is needed. As an example, I have soft water and a 3.8 cf Whirlpool FL -- similar to yours. For a "normally-soiled" full load of laundry (about 18 lbs.) I use about 3 tablespoons of Tide HE powder (2X). I get clean clothes and no residue. Machine itself has remained pristine for more than seven years. I vary the dose depending on load characteristics. If I had harder water, I'd use more but perhaps my example could serve as a starting point. If in doubt, use less instead of more and learn as you go.

FWIW, I've used Bounce sheets for decades. They have never melted or clogged my lint traps.

    Bookmark   March 25, 2012 at 11:58AM
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"The installer from Miele said I could use any detergent HE or non-HE...."

E-gad ... I didn't see that part. NO WAY he told you to use non-HE. I question his knowledge at all if that's the case.

Most definitely use HE whichever brand you choose. They are designed to work with much less water. Sudsing being an issue with non-HE and soil suspension. Big difference between detergent designed to be used in a TL full of water and a FL with very little water.

@Asolo, the Miele dryer is designed differently. It moves a much higher volume of air and the dryer sheet would become stuck to the vent and impede air flow. You just cannot use them in the Miele dryer.

I was lucky in that I was not already a dryer sheet user so it was no big deal for me. If you're used to using them then you'll have a little adjustment.

    Bookmark   March 25, 2012 at 1:49PM
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Thanks so much for all the help in figuring out what detergent I need to use. Glad I waited to hear back from GW instead of following the Miele installer's "expertise" on the detergent.

Went to the local store to buy a small Tide HE liquid "original" to do my first load.

I went to Costco and bought bought Tide HE - they didn't have the "original"(one was powder and one was cold water liquid detergent). I bought both. Do I need both?

I'm assuming the powder is used for high temperatures and the rest I can use the "cold water" detergent.

After the wash I wipe down the door and the rubber gasket - but I don't wipe the groove inside the rubber gasket (I tried but felt awkward as if I was ripping it open with my huge hand!!!) So I left the door open and it was dry after sometime.

Hope I'm using the machine correctly!

    Bookmark   April 3, 2012 at 10:31AM
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