Help with Replacement Heatpump choice

eddiek2000May 1, 2012

A little background:

House is 12 years old. It has 2 systems. One 2.5 ton for the lower half and a 2 ton for the upstairs. The house is victorian style, so it has many windows. 2 years ago I had the lower system replaced due to a leaking evap coil (York Systems) and the furnace had rusted quite badly due to condensation caused by humidity entering the "side shot" the original company used for venting the oil furnace. The plan is to have a boiler installed at some point for heat and hot-water, that is why the water coil is mentioned below.

Now on to my problem, the upstairs 2 ton unit, located in the attic, is heading out. It is suffering the same horrible death as the old downstairs unit. I discovered this after the first hot day here in Southern MD. The system freezes up and is barely throwing cool air. Acting quickly so as not to punish the installers by having to work in a hot attic I contacted 2 local companies and received the 2 following proposals:

1) Provide labor and materials to furnish and install one Trane 2 ton heat pump system. Proposal includes the following Trane model XL15i (4TWX5024B) outdoor heat pump; TAM7A0B30H21 indoor variable speed hyperion air handler; 10 Kw electric back up heater; auxiliary drain pan with float switch; Trane touch screen programmable comfort control; pad and pump-ups for outdoor unit; duct work re connections; add return in front bedroom

Customer cost after Instant Rebate is $6,300.00. Not sure if the trane water coil is included or not - waiting on answer since coil price is about $550

2) To install a 2 ton 15 s.e.e.r heat pump system for the second floor. This includes a variable speed air handler model #AAM7AC024, outdoor condensing unit model # 4AH5024E, 10KW heater package, and new touch screen programmable thermostat. Run a 6" return to front room of the house. Add a 20x20 Honeywell hepa filter and 60,000 water coil for the future back-up heat. PRICE: $5,880.00 - Water coil included, but not a trane or American standard.

A return duct is being added to a front bedroom. With the door open, the room isn't too bad, but when it is closed it is either too cold or too hot.

The trane guy gave me a quote last year for the downstairs system and this quote is about $800 more, I want to ask why, but not until I get some opinions here.

Thanks!

Ed

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tigerdunes

Eddie

Why the water coil? You have a boiler?

That second quote sure looks like an AmStd HP condenser model. Please re-check the mdl number.

there are three equally important components-quality HVAC, the install by
dealer, and probably the most overlooked and disregarded is the ductwork system.

these are my minimum specs for a new HP system. both outside and inside units should be replaced to have a properly matched system.

15 SEER, 12.5+ EER, 9 HSPF
best matching VS air handler
full BTUs in both cooling and heating for your rated size
R-410a refrigerant(same as Puron)
scroll compressor preferred
electronic demand defrost preferred
thermostat with "dehumidify on demand" feature
staged backup heat strips
new and correctly sized refrigerant line set

you want a thorough inspection of your ductwork system. size, overall condition, supply and return lines, insulation qualities, leak test, etc.

any hot/cold spot issues in your home should be addressed.

I would only use authorized dealers for the various brands that provide quotes.
see mfg websites.

I would look at Trane/AmStd,Rheem/Rudd,Carrier/Bryant.

Depending on your location, I would not purchase a new HP system that did not have electronic demand defrost.

On the Trane quote, you could drop down to the XR15 HP model and save some money. New lineset included? What thermostat mdl? 10 KW strip heat is large considering two ton condenser. I might drop down to a 7.5 or 8 KW size.

How are you filtering your return air now?

Post back.

IMO

    Bookmark   May 1, 2012 at 10:39AM
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eddiek2000

Thanks TD!

I do not currently have a boiler, but we plan on one in the future. That will be a work in progress.

The second quote was from an American Std guy, somehow I forgot to mention that. Guy 1 is Trane, Guy 2 is Amer. Std.

What is the real scoop between the XL15i, XR15, and American Std 15?

Currently there is a central return in the hallway with a 20x20x1 filter. I want to add a large media filter in the attic since my experience with the clean effects isn't so good.

New line-sets are out. They are embedded in the wall and I have no desire to rip walls open to replace and my wife would kill me if I suggested we run them down the outside of the house.

Does the trane/Am.Std have a scroll compressor?

Thanks Again!

    Bookmark   May 1, 2012 at 10:51AM
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tigerdunes

Eddie

So other than the water coil, what would be the purpose of the boiler?u
I am having a difficult time understanding your thinking.

You still have a gas furnace for lower level system?

The XL15i, XR15, and Heritage 15 are all similar HP condensers.
You do get the proprietary weather top and extra 2 yr warranty on the compressor with the XL15i condenser. Those are the major differences.

As stated in first post, you want to re-check the mdl number of the AmStd condenser quoted. You want the AS Heritage 15 mdl if going with AmStd.

On the smaller condensers, I believe they are all recip compressors. Best to verify this with dealer. As far as I am concerned, this is not an issue.

The return you refer to is for upstairs system only? Correct?

How bout the thermostat mdl quoted?

IMO

    Bookmark   May 1, 2012 at 11:07AM
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eddiek2000

The lower system currently has switchable electric or hot water as auxilary heat (currently an oil fired hot water heater is acting as a boiler). The end goal is to have a true boiler installed to feed the 'hot water heater/exchanger', the downstairs water coil , the upstairs water coil, and a bonus room above the garage that is not finished yet.. (so 3 separate systems)

I was looking at zoning the new upstairs unit to include the Bonus room, but the trane guy talked me out of it. The room is sandwiched between an attic and a garage, so the most comfortable solution was believed to be a separate system.

Electric heat is expensive. Oil is also expensive, but the btu output is high making it an attractive alternative.

Each system has it's own return. So the hallway return is just for upstairs air handler. I had a clean effects installed on the lower system when it was replaced and was unimpressed.

Sorry for adding more confusing info, but hey if it helps...

As far as thermostat, all that was mentioned was a "Trane touch screen programmable comfort control", if more detail is needed, I can ask.

I'll have to check with the Am. Std. guy about his part numbers.

    Bookmark   May 1, 2012 at 11:41AM
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eddiek2000

I also received a quote for the XR15 and the difference was only $150, vs the XL15i.

    Bookmark   May 1, 2012 at 1:29PM
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eddiek2000

4A6H5024E should be the Am. Std. Part number.

    Bookmark   May 1, 2012 at 1:41PM
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eddiek2000

Trane guy got back to me.

The stat is TCONT802A.

    Bookmark   May 3, 2012 at 9:56AM
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tigerdunes

Eddie

You want the 803 Trane stat that has humidity control or exact same mdl HW mdl #8321. They are basically identical.

IMO

    Bookmark   May 3, 2012 at 10:00AM
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eddiek2000

Done. Dealer will swap the 803 for the 802 at no cost.

Did the trane guy match up the hp and air handler for the best performance?

    Bookmark   May 3, 2012 at 10:41AM
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tigerdunes

Eddie

What condenser mdl and brand did you decide on?

Post back and I will look up the best matching air handler model.

IMO

    Bookmark   May 3, 2012 at 10:59AM
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eddiek2000

I am going with the trane guy. Since the XR vs XLi is only $150 difference I'm going with the Xl15i.

4TWX5024B TAM7A0B30H2I

I will have to discuss with them about the heat strips. I want staged 10Kw or 8Kw.

    Bookmark   May 3, 2012 at 11:06AM
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tigerdunes

Eddie

That is correct matching condenser and air handler. AHRI #5020850.

Dealer is providing new lineset?

Trane offers a 7/12 KW 2 stg heat strip.

You might ask dealer to install 2 5KW heat strips and wire them staged with full 10 KW for a defrost call.

IMO

    Bookmark   May 3, 2012 at 11:22AM
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