hvac quote - alexandria va

GrizmulApril 16, 2014

Hello. I am about to put in two new Bryant systems duct work and all into a house renovation. Would love some advice on choices.

Background:

My wife and myself keep the house cooler during the winter and warmer in the summer but we want to make sure the house humidity stays within a good range for comfort. Winter we keep the house between 60-67 degrees and the summer is 78-82.

House is about 2500 sq/ft. System 1 would cover the first floor and System 2 the the second and third floor. Third floor only requires 200 cfms.

System 1 cooling load calc was 14,285 Btuh and 32k for heating.

System 2 was 24000 btuh cooling and not sure on the heating.

The quote we got was for Bryant Evolution series HP and evolution gas furnace with ducts.

2x Gas furnaces: Bryant Evolution base model 986T
2x Heat Pumps : Bryant Evolution base model 286B
2x Humidifiers: Honeywell
evolution thermostats
carbon monoxide sensors included

$26,177.37 materials , equipment duct , permits
$8571.43 labor
~35k total! Still may need to pay 4k more to zone the third floor from the second.

*They haven't given me the tonnage numbers yet.

For our humidification and dehumidification needs is this a solid system?

Should we upgrade to the evolution extreme HP?

Is this system overkill?

Do we need heat pumps with a variable fan speed furnace with 2 stage heating?

If the house will be tight or semi-tight do we need a ventilator?

Thanks!

This post was edited by Grizmul on Wed, Apr 16, 14 at 13:24

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tigerdunes

What size furnace and heat pumps?

You have nat gas service or propane?

You need to weigh carefully the added cost of a heat pump if you have nat gas service. And no I would not consider the Evolution Extreme Heat Pump. Post your gas and electric rates and I will run a comparison.

A big mistake on the thermostat selection. You need the Evolution controller for each system especially since you have top of line Evolution systems. Plus since you will be keeping thermostat higher in cooling, the Evolution controller will give you independent dehumidify on demand feature for controlling indoor humidity.

I would hope you are being sized both cooling and heating to reasonable and correct indoor temp settings, not those you have posted. That would be a mistake as well. You will need a filter box cabinet for both systems.

IMO

    Bookmark   April 16, 2014 at 11:01AM
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Grizmul

Thanks for getting back.

We use natural gas. 60-90 cents per therm it's currently at .91 for april - they said it just went up.

Electric rate: 9 cents / kwh in winter months

They haven't given me the size yet of the furnace and heat pump yet. I sent an email off and will report back asap.

The load document is using reasonable indoor temps. 70 in winter and 75 summer.

The Evolution controller was the one he had listed. I didn't write that in. He plans on using the lower stage of cooling to dehumidify.

    Bookmark   April 16, 2014 at 12:58PM
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tigerdunes

With such a small heating load, you may find it difficult to be sized correctly on the furnace.

I would forget the heat pump unless you just have money to burn.

And it would be a terrible mistake not to include Evolution controllers for Evolution systems. In fact , unless you asked for the Honeywell stats, it makes a bad statement about your dealer.

IMO

    Bookmark   April 16, 2014 at 1:04PM
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mike_home

Winter low humidity problems are mostly caused by air leakages. If you have improved the windows and doors then you may not need a humidifier. At worst case one should be sufficient.

You don't have a valid quote without the complete model numbers of all equipment.

Are you going to get additional quotes? $35K seems high even where I live.

    Bookmark   April 16, 2014 at 1:19PM
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tigerdunes

Ugh

I missed the pricing.

Absolutely absurd!

IMO

    Bookmark   April 16, 2014 at 1:26PM
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Grizmul

@tigerdunes
He did include the evolution thermostat. It was my misprint. I fixed it in the original post.

32000 btuh is considered a small heating load? or are you referring to the 3rd floor zone?

No money to burn :) I need to find out the difference in price between the HP and just A/C.

@mike_home
Our old house had lots of leakage issues but since they will completely overhaul the house maybe that issue will vanish. I may have foam installed to help make the house tighter but will see what that costs first.

The 35k is coming from the sub to the GC on the project. I could ask about other subs of his if it seems high.

thanks

    Bookmark   April 16, 2014 at 1:31PM
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Grizmul

We don't have any ductwork now so this is basically a fresh install. Heck might as well be a new house as we are leaving up only one wall and raising the ceilings.

    Bookmark   April 16, 2014 at 1:34PM
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PRO
CJ Mechanical of North jersey llc.

I would adise you to get anther Quote. $26,000 for equipment and materials is a lot. At 2400 sq. under 4 tons total. My calc for 2 ton 60.000 btu heat on each floor ,evap coil evolution stat x2 $ 7,000. filters,4" media,humidifiers x2 =$ 900.00 $ 8,000 covers all equipment. His price maybe ok if you had 2400 sq per floor ( 5,000 sq ) Evolution has 3 stages heat so all tho it could be over sized it will deliver low stage ht. Get rid of heat pumps and save a $ 1,000.00
$16,000 for ductwork,copper,drains,low voltage. Does not add up. I do load calc all day long 3.5 tons most often however I dont know what your house looks like.

    Bookmark   April 16, 2014 at 1:37PM
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Grizmul

Ill get another quote. The total square footage is actually listed as 1557 sq/ft on system 2 and 2185 for system 1. I forgot they will condition the crawl space. Total of 3742 sq/ft.

I will ditch the heat pumps and see what the cost difference will be.

    Bookmark   April 16, 2014 at 2:18PM
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PRO
CJ Mechanical of North jersey llc.

Get a another Quote. just to be sure the prices are in line of one another. His numbers may not be that off if it is very complicated install and a large co. with lots of over head.

    Bookmark   April 17, 2014 at 9:35AM
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weedmeister

I think your ManualJ load calculations are fairly meaningless until you decide what you are going to do about insulation.

    Bookmark   April 17, 2014 at 7:21PM
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Grizmul

New quote , thoughts? 43,127.63$

All new ducts for floors 1-3. New everything.

Scope of work:

(2) Install new Bryant 98% gas modulating furnace mod#187bna42060v17
(2) Install new Bryant evolution two stage 17 SEER A/C unit mod# 187bna024000) each 2 tons he said
(2) Evaporator coils (aluminum he said)
(2) Bryant evolution control
(2) Install new line set
(2) Install low voltage wire
(2) Install disconnect box
(2) Install drain line for furnace & a/C only

(2) Water protection switches

Install duct work

Secondary drain pan

Make all refrigerant connections

Pressure test eystem with nitrogen to insure there are no leaks
Pull vacuum to proper levels

Start: and test unit to insure proper operations

Charge unit to manufacture specs.

    Bookmark   May 2, 2014 at 4:21PM
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sktn77a

My thoughts? Get more quotes!

    Bookmark   May 4, 2014 at 8:44PM
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tigerdunes

Are these prices coming from a General Contractor or straight from an HVAC dealer?

Post back...

    Bookmark   May 5, 2014 at 7:04AM
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Grizmul

Quote is coming from the GC however the HVAC is part of his own company so he is not subbing it out. Finally got a breakdown of where the money is going: Seems the labor cost sets a very high cost base but maybe that is normal around the DC area. They did quote me a dual lenox system for 23K. Not sure how they could do that for 23k based on the labor cost I see here.

Insulation will be flash and batt? thin closed cell foam layer with added fiberglass to fill it out.

Furnace 987m 3190$ x2 6380$ (24-60 KBTUh)
evap coil Aluminum 500$ x2 1000$
Evolution A/C 187B 3750$ x2 7500$ (2 Ton each)
Ventilator ?? 220$ x2 440$
Evolution controls 400$ x2 800$
Ducts&Mats 1785$ 1785$
Labor 18500$ 18500$
Extras,wires,pans etc 1400$ 1400$

    Bookmark   May 6, 2014 at 9:21AM
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tigerdunes

This is a conflict of interest and you can bet he will get a nice vacation abroad and a new addition for his home the way he is pricing you. Not sure what you can do about it though. Other than to get an independent dealer involved and tell GC you plan to take responsibility for the HVAC due to his absurd pricing. Maybe a little leverage. Unfortunately GCs use HVAC as a large profit center.

Good Luck!

    Bookmark   May 6, 2014 at 9:46AM
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mike_home

I find it unusual that a general contracting business is also an HVAC business. Is the company doing the work listed on the Bryant web site?

This post was edited by mike_home on Tue, May 6, 14 at 10:51

    Bookmark   May 6, 2014 at 10:50AM
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Grizmul

@tigerdunes I've called two independent HVAc people to get quotes. I'd much prefer to stick with the GC though if possible. Any ideas what this should cost?

@mike_home
According to the Architect, if I remember correctly, this particular GC does it to ensure a certain level of quality and control. I think he has a bunch of dpts under his company.

    Bookmark   May 6, 2014 at 2:06PM
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Grizmul

What is really strange is the original bid was for a low end lenox setup @23,000k. If I add up the labor, duct costs, and misc cost then it almost 22k! So they would give me 2 furnaces, 2 a/c units and whatever else goes for 1k? I just wanted to add some stuff or change it and it goes from 23k to 50k at one point. How is that even possible...

    Bookmark   May 6, 2014 at 2:10PM
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mike_home

One or both of your quotes could be wrong. You need to sit down with the person generating the quotes and ask questions. They neither one makes sense.

I would be really curious to know if the GC has one person working for him that is the HVAC guy who then works with a subcontractor. I am suspicious of the arrangement you described.

    Bookmark   May 6, 2014 at 4:15PM
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tigerdunes

Bricks and Mortar building? Get the physical address.

Ask about the warranty.

IMO

    Bookmark   May 6, 2014 at 4:19PM
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Grizmul

I spoke with the GC this morning and he said he will either bring the cost in line with other quotes or he will outsource. He has no problems outsourcing. I just need to find out what a reasonable cost is.

I have the physical address and see it on google maps etc. This is a GC the architect really likes and described as a hands on type of guy with a great attention to detail.

This post was edited by Grizmul on Wed, May 7, 14 at 9:06

    Bookmark   May 7, 2014 at 9:03AM
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Kitty3022

I had a Trane XB13 installed in Dec 2012. Two weeks ago I had my compressor moved due to a new deck (I wanted the compressor to sit on top of the deck). About one week after the compressor was moved, water started to pool outside of the HVAC system in my laudry room. The tech who moved the compressor came back out yesterday and diagnosed the issue as a bad Thermal Expansion Valve. Seems that there could be correlation here with the compressor move. Would be very interested in opinions.

    Bookmark   October 31, 2014 at 3:34PM
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