Help For A Neighbor

SaltiDawgFebruary 12, 2014

I have a good friend and Navy contemporary of mine that also lives in Maryland. Nice large home, three heat pumps.

One of his heat pumps has failed and he needs to replace it ASAP. I know nothing about his existing working systems but I do know he uses electric strips for Auxillary heat.

An installer that he has dealt with before came out and propose three systems to replace his failed unit. (The unit is in the attic and has a 10KW strip heater.

Could you give me some reactions/thoughts on these systems? There has been no mention of a heat load calc or similar, and the absolutely freezing weather at his place right on Chesapeake Bay demands a replacement be made ASAP!

Two Carrier Systems and a Payne;

$9700 Carrier Performance 2.5 Ton:

25HCC530 with FX4DNF031

15.2 SEER and 10Kw Single Strip

$6100 Carrier 2.5 Ton (Comfort ???)

25HCD330 with ???

13 SEER and 10Kw Single strip


PH13NB030 13 SEER W/ 10Kw Single Strip.

I'll forward any comments you might make in support of a needed quick decision on his part!

My friend seems pre-disposed toward Carrier.

My gut reaction, based on reading you guys over the years is that the 2nd and 3rd options are entry level equipments.

First option seems quite expensive and i would think staged 15KW Strip heaters?

I have no idea about the air handler/ compressor match.

Additionally, I'm suspicious of the thermostat proposed - "Digital Thermostat. (I love my Edge Thermostat.)

Bottom line advice, I'd want a Carrier heat pump with a two stage compressor and a matching variable speed air handler with a thermostat that is appropriate for that combo. (Staged 15Kw Strip Heaters?)

Is/was that good advice and what do you think?

Also, I think he should get a couple of quotes!

I realize that these kind of posts are not very well received, but my friend and I REALLY need help and need it rather soon!

This post was edited by saltidawg on Wed, Feb 12, 14 at 18:38

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Get a couple more estimates. That's the only way to assess the price, which is regional. They do seem a little high, though.

    Bookmark   February 12, 2014 at 7:03PM
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Hi Salti:

I would not go with a single speed fan coil or a 13-SEER system.

I would recommend at least an Infinity system with an FE4ANB003000 fan coil and an Infinity 25HNB530A003 heat pump with an Infinity SYSTXCCITN01 T-stat and Carrier CNC 2025 media filter. The 15kW strips must be staged.

I would also wall mount the HP on brackets and install a new line set.



    Bookmark   February 12, 2014 at 8:39PM
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Does he live near the water? I think Trane has better salt water protection. And on-demand defrost.

    Bookmark   February 12, 2014 at 11:48PM
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I will assume 2 1/2 ton system is correct size. That is the current size you are replacing? And size of existing heat strip?

Rule of thumb pricing should be around $2500-$3000 per ton for a nice 15 SEER heat pump system with var speed air handler. Pricing of course varies between different locations, different regions, and of course degree of competitiveness.

I don't like Payne.

Here are my recommendations.

Here is my general spec sheet for new system.
both outside and inside units should be replaced to have a properly matched system.

15 SEER, 12.5+ EER, 9 HSPF
best matching VS air handler
full BTUs in both cooling and heating for your rated size
R-410a refrigerant(same as Puron)
scroll compressor preferred
electronic demand defrost preferred
thermostat with "dehumidify on demand" feature
staged backup heat strips
new and correctly sized refrigerant lineset
10 yr warranty on parts and compressor

you want a thorough inspection of your ductwork system. size, overall condition, supply and return lines, insulation qualities, leak test, etc.

any hot/cold spot issues in your home should be addressed.

My personal recommendation is Trane/AmStd, Rudd/Rheem, and Carrier/Bryant.

Depending on your location, I would not purchase a new system that did not have electronic demand defrost. For Maryland, I would insist on it.

10 KW heat strip should be adequate. Yields about. 35 KBTUs.

Is your friend in a coastal location?

I would call a Trane and AmStd dealer and get pricing on Trane XR15 and AmStd Heritage 15.

As far as Carrier, their Performance 15 and Comfort 15 models with matching var speed air handler along with Carrier's Edge Thermidistat. No substitute. The downside to Carrier is the lacking of demand defrost. Shame on Carrier for this.

If your neighbor is stuck on Carrier, then go no lower than the following 2 1//2 ton systems. Performance System a bit nicer than the Comfort system.

3645735 Active Systems CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING COMFORT SERIES PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HBC530A**30 FV4CN(B,F)005 875 29000 13.00 16.00 27600 9.00 16800 1 HRCU-A-CB 219 646 Yes

3676240 Active Systems CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING PERFORMANCE SERIES PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HCC530A**30 FV4CN(B,F)005 875 28800 13.00 15.50 27600 9.00 16700 1 HRCU-A-CB 225 646 Yes

Both qualify for Fed Tax Credit.

I just prefer Trane/AmStd because of demand defrost.

Let me know if you have any questions.


This post was edited by tigerdunes on Thu, Feb 13, 14 at 10:28

    Bookmark   February 13, 2014 at 6:15AM
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Thanks for the comprehensive answer - I'll pass it on.

Yes, he is on the water - beautiful secluded location on MD's Chesapeake Bay.

The provided info from all will be invaluable to making an informed decision.

I paid $97 four years ago for my Carrier Heat pump plus carrier oil burner. I was suspicious of his $97 quote for just the heat pump.

If there is any change because of his being on the water, I'll pass it on to him. We've had like a foot of snow here today - so far - so that may allow him to feel comfortable wating until he gets some more quotes!

Thanks again all!

    Bookmark   February 13, 2014 at 10:24AM
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As to water, generally speaking Trane and AmStd systems hold up better in harsh coastal environments.


    Bookmark   February 13, 2014 at 10:31AM
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QUESTION: Is the proposed Carrier installation a Match?

25HCC530 and FX4DNF031

15.2 SEER

Would the Edge thermostat be the device of choice?

I am encouraging my neighbor to get multiple quotes for both
Trane and also Carrier, but I do sense a pre-disposition for Carrier.

    Bookmark   February 14, 2014 at 11:54AM
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It is a match. Not the one I would recommend. See below.

And yes, you want Carrier Edge Thermidistat.

3676266 Active Systems CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING PERFORMANCE 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HCC530A**30 FX4DN(B,F)031 1000 28400 12.50 15.20 28200 8.50 17000 1 HRCU-A-CB 226 684 Yes

3676240 Active Systems CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING PERFORMANCE SERIES PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HCC530A**30 FV4CN(B,F)005 875 28800 13.00 15.50 27600 9.00 16700 1 HRCU-A-CB 225 646 Yes

To be clear, the major advantages to the var speed air handler is better heating efficiency and better summertime cooling dehudification. A mistake not getting the vs air handler.


This post was edited by tigerdunes on Fri, Feb 14, 14 at 13:07

    Bookmark   February 14, 2014 at 12:59PM
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excuse my ignorance.

The first listed is the one proposed by the installer and it is NOT VS??????

The second is a better choice to include VS ??????

    Bookmark   February 14, 2014 at 2:36PM
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First of all the pricing of first system from OP is over the top, absurd, ridiculous.

The air handler quoted is not var speed.

On the second Carrier quote, no model number for air handler was listed.

And on the Payne quote, I would place it where it belongs, ie the trash can.

Just trying to be straight forward as I think you would want me to.

Still think your neighbor/friend should follow up on my suggestions of the Trane and AmStd model.

If your neighbor wants to stick with Carrier or even sister company Bryant who carries exact same models, I would get another dealer involved. I can not emphasize enough the poor pricing Carrier dealer has given on the 2 1/2 ton Performance 15 system. Unless complete scope of work has not been included in your initial post.

Don't like to see homeowners taken advantage of.

Is neighbor using emergency heat now or is system completely down?


    Bookmark   February 14, 2014 at 3:02PM
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Neighbor's home does have heat - two other heat pumps and wood stove, etc.

I provided a couple of dealer/installers for Trane and Carrier and he is going to get some proposals.

I think the info here has convinced him that they were trying to take advantage of him!

He has eliminated from consideration the lesser Carrier and the Payne.

By all means, be blunt or direct.

    Bookmark   February 14, 2014 at 3:29PM
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