Carrier Greenspeed 2Ton 3Ton

ColdinNYJanuary 14, 2013

I would appreciate advice on the problem I have with Carrier Greenspeed. I had a very reputable company install Greenspeed 25VNA024A003 with FE4ANF002000 and SYSTXCCITW01. The unit covers only a part of the house which includes over the garage master bedroom and another room approximately 950sq ft altogether. The unit was not performing well from the beginning at 32F half or more of electrical usage came from 10KW heat strip. When the temperature dropped to 25F the numbers became much worse HP 44KW electric heat strip 184KW. I spoke to the installer and told them that it seemed that there is a sizing issue with HP. I had a guy who trains dealers for Carrier come out and he wants to change model plug. I was told this in fact will convert 2Ton to 3Ton unit. Is that true? Thanks.

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fsq4cw

From the information you provided you do in fact have a Carrier Infinity Greenspeed 2-ton system. While the fan coil can handle up to 3-tons the fact is you have only a 2-ton HP.

Unless something is defective, improperly installed or programmed, I can't see how much can change even if they increase the cfm of the fan coil up to its 1200cfm maximum.

Was a 'Manual J' heat loss analysis done?

SR

    Bookmark   January 15, 2013 at 1:09AM
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tigerdunes

I doubt a forum like this can pinpoint your system's issues if there are any.

I am certainly no GreenSpeed expert. This HP system is marketed as being able to provide full BTUs in it's rated size down to much lower outside temps over conventional air to air heat pumps.

I will ask several questions and provide a few observations.

Tell us about the 950 sq ft living space this unit serves-ceiling ht and insulation qualities in particular. How did system perform in AC cooling?
Is the 10 KW heat strip staged? You are aware that a 10 KW heat strip by itself provides nearly 35 KBTUs? Was a load calc performed by installing dealer and given to you in writing?

I am not clear about your final statement about converting a 2 ton to a three ton. This can not be done without changing out the outside condenser and possibly the air handler as well. Certainly CFM speed can
be adjusted but don't believe this is an answer to your issues.

Just on the surface and without knowing more details, I think your issues could be install and setup related. This needs to be thoroughly checked out by a GreenSpeed certified tech, Carrier provided specific training for field techs on this equipment both for new installs as well as operational troubleshooting.

Finally, I will offer this thought. The air handler you purchased is an AHRI match. However it is not the best match. Unless you had space issues where the air handler is located, your dealer did not provide you the best match as far as performance/efficiency numbers specifically in HSPF heating efficiency which you as a homeowner would be very interested in. The 005 air handler would have been the preferred selection. It should be noted that your system is rated to provide 25.4 KBTUs at 17 degree outside temp which is excellent, this according to the AHRI HP directory.

Keep us posted.

IMO

    Bookmark   January 15, 2013 at 4:49AM
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mike_home

What is a "model plug"?

Is the very reputable company you used a Carrier Factory Authorized dealer?

Who is the person who trains dealers for Carrier? How did he get involved in the situation?

It sounds from your description that you have an installation problem and the HVAC contractor does not know how to fix it.

    Bookmark   January 15, 2013 at 8:19AM
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ColdinNY

Thank you for your feedback. There is issue with the space for air handler. Since, I don't have dimensions of 005 air handler I assume its much bigger than 002. The space that is being heated is complicated its 2 rooms and a bathroom. The space in all 950 sq ft with 156 sq ft of windows, vaulted ceiling, fire place, three outside walls. However, its an odd space because its always gets heated via diffusion by a main furnace. The electric heat was upgraded to 9KW staged. The company that installed the unit is Carrier authorized dealer. The way I was told about model plug is 2ton and 3 ton units are the same. The only difference is this model plug. The model plug puts limit on how many revolutions unit produce. Lastly, it seems Carrier sells to distributer and they sell to the dealers. This guy works for distributer and trains dealer�s staff on Carrier equipment. Dealer asked him to look at the install.

    Bookmark   January 17, 2013 at 11:30PM
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mike_home

The 005 air handler is 3.5 inches wider and 9 inches taller than the 002 version. Both have the same depth. I am not sure you can use the 005 with a 2 ton condenser. The product data sheet shows the minimum BTU range is 2.5 tons.

The 002 air handler can work with condensers from 1.5 to to 3 tons. So I understand the air handler can be modified to push enough air for 3 tons, but you still have a 2 ton condenser. I am not the heat pump expert, but I don't see how this is going to produce more heat.

    Bookmark   January 18, 2013 at 7:56AM
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tigerdunes

For mike.

The 005 air handler is an approved AHRI match for the two ton condenser. It moves the HSPF heating efficiency from 10.5 to 12.5 which is a big deal. Of course as I mentioned, if there is a space issue, then OP had little choice.

But just to be clear, this has nothing to do with OP's concerns. The air handler size is just about heating efficiency.

IMO

    Bookmark   January 18, 2013 at 8:06AM
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mike_home

Tigerdunes,

I should have known you would check the the AHRI directory before recommending the 005. What was I thinking?

I sense there is an installation problem and the contractor doesn't know how it fix it.

    Bookmark   January 18, 2013 at 10:04AM
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tigerdunes

For Mike

I agree. With an expensive system like he has, there should be no problem maintaining thermostat set point down to 17 degree and without backup heat strip. Dealer should get this resolved or either take it back and give homeowner a full refund. Carrier can not afford to see stories like this in an open forum.

Any Carrier dealers or Greenspeed techs care to comment? This homeowner needs help.

IMO

    Bookmark   January 18, 2013 at 11:26AM
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fsq4cw

Not so fast boys & girls; there's something else here that I didn't expect to see. The technical manual for the 25VNA series says in the Electrical Data that the Compressor LRA/RLA, FAN & MCA for the 024 & 036 are in fact all exactly the same! The 048 & 060 are likewise the same but of a higher value than the 024/036 series. The only electrical difference between the 024 & 036 is the MAX FUSE or CKT BRK AMPS (30-amps/024, 40-amps/036).

When you compare the dBA levels between the 024 & 036 you will also notice the there is a substantial difference in MAX RPM between these 2 machines. That may be due to a programmed difference between the 2-sizes and could be what the trainer is alluding to.

The shipping weights & operating weights are also exactly the same for the 024/036 as are the 048/060. Ditto for the dimensions, all 4 share the same size cabinets. This again may mean the 024/036 and the 048/060 are mechanically the same units.

Maybe the dealer trainer knows something we don't! I guess we'll have to wait and see what develops.

SR

Here is a link that might be useful: 25VNA Carrier infinity Greenspeed Installation Manual

    Bookmark   January 18, 2013 at 4:18PM
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ColdinNY

Thanks again to everybody for posting. The model plug has been changed I will update on the results.

To: Mike Thanks for the dimensions. They could have fit it if they wanted but it would be tight.

To: tigerdunes Is it possible to calculate how much more I would have to pay for 002 vs. 005 at 13cents a kw? Also does anybody know what would be the price difference of 002 vs. 005?

To: fsq4cw Your comment is exactly what I was told 2 ton and 3 ton are the same and 4and 6 are the same.

    Bookmark   January 18, 2013 at 8:59PM
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tigerdunes

Well just a guesstimate but I would say around 20%.

Nothing to sneeze about especially over the lifetime of the system plus knowing that heating is very important for your location.

I'll just offer this. I think your dealer did you a terrible injustice by not making the 005 work. He took a shortcut that hurt you.

IMO

    Bookmark   January 19, 2013 at 12:09PM
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ColdinNY

It makes me very sad, upset and at the same time helpless to hear this. I feel like this people steal from you without any consequences. I have never seen such as incompetence from a "reputable" company. As a homeowner when you hire a professional at some point you have to rely on their expertise. This sucks!

    Bookmark   January 19, 2013 at 1:39PM
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ColdinNY

Mike,

So there are no misunderstandings can you give me actual dimensions for 005. Thanks.

    Bookmark   January 20, 2013 at 12:31PM
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mike_home

Here is a link to the product data. The physical dimensions are on page 6. The are also drawings showing the locations of connections.

Here is a link that might be useful: FE4AN Product Data

    Bookmark   January 20, 2013 at 3:10PM
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ColdinNY

So here is an update on average I am getting about $10 a day at 13 cents a kw. I have a number of issues if anybody would like to comment on them. First the thermostat from what I been told and from experience is not to be touched. What I mean is there is no point of lowering temperature because it seems to cost more to later bring it back up. Also filter monitor indicating that it needs to be changed. However, I didn't run the unit for more than a month and ducts were cleaned prior to that. There is also a default +5 temp offset I am not sure why and I don't think it offsets the temperature inside the house. Thanks.

    Bookmark   February 2, 2013 at 9:14PM
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tigerdunes

What does installing dealer have to say about these issues?

What ever happened about the plug?

Post back.

IMO

    Bookmark   February 3, 2013 at 11:44AM
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ColdinNY

The plug was instaled and it works like 3 ton. The installer didn't feel it was an issue with the filter and told me to reset it. However, another post talked about the pressure sensors that may set this off if the duct work is not sufficient. This may be my case.

    Bookmark   February 3, 2013 at 9:22PM
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bsmith

This is correct about the plug/limiter. Just as fsq4cw stated, the 2/3 ton uses the same size compressor. My dealer actually showed me the plug on the unit.

Meaning... the 2 and 3 ton are able to limit the system to 12K btu, or 50% and 40% respectively. The same holds true for the 4/5 ton units, limited to 24K btu.

So the sweet spot is actually the 2 and 5 ton.

    Bookmark   May 26, 2014 at 6:58PM
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