One step forward, two steps back... (Long)

skrepkaJuly 12, 2006

Hi everyone.

I have a DH who grew up on the 'instant gratification' household.

Our finances were a mess until the beginning of 2006. I have not work since Fall 2001 and only started working again in January of 2006. For the whole time I was not working, he was managing all of household finances. I must say that one income and a little help from my parents were where just about breaking even (or so I thought) until last May, when we decided to pull both DDs from the daycare and hire a nanny. We knew if would double our childcare expenses, but he assured me that he found a little extra in the 'budget' for it and plus we knew that I will be working again come January 06.

For the past four years, I knew that everything was not as great as he has been presenting it to me, but I have never actually lood at the money myself. Why? I don't know. I think it might have been 'I don't work, I don't have a say' mentality on my part, but who knows. We have had our share of money fights over the years as well.

In any case, in November 2005, I basically told him that I am taking over household finances for the next three months. If we both feel that I am doing a better job then he is that I will continue with it. If we both are not satisfied with my management, he can take over again in February.

So I have been managing household budget ever since.

When I started here is what I found:

1) We missed three months rent payment during 2005. The good thing is that we are renting from my parents, so there weren't any kind of late fees and stuff, but still extra three months of rent had to be paid for a total of $2,600.

2) We had $2,000 in credit card debt that I knew of, and $4,000 that I did not know of. So another $6,000 that had to be paid.

3) Our rent went from $700/month to $1100/month as of January 2006 when I started working. My parents were helping us with $400/month while I was not working, but I knew that in advance.

4) We had $30 (THIRTY) in the savings account.

5) My credit score, that was 785 in September 2004 dropped to 670 due to some medical bills that were not paid and went to collection. Why or why did he not pay this stupid $200 bill? I must add that DH's credit score went from 425 in January 1999, when we met to 680 as of March 2006, but is still not high enough.

In any case, now, 8 months later, we are saving 23% of our GROSS income towards downpayment, We have ZERO debt, we have reduced our spending by a lot, and I have established a $200/months allowance of mad money for each of us. I am solely responsible for household budget, and I don't hear any protests from DH. Yes, it was stupid of me not to be a part of household finances prior to this, but all I can do is do a better job from now on. Now to a problem at hand.

My DH's birthday was in May. I have budgeted $50 to spend on the gift of his choice. However, he decided that he wanted a new digital camera. (I agreed that we could have used a new one.) He found the one he wanted for $200. After thinking about if for a while, I decided that he has been very good about his spendings lately and decided to reward him with a new camera. FIL told me that he will contribute $50 to DH's gift. So, I figured if I cannot find extra $100 in the budget that month, I will cover the difference from my own savings of my mad money.

The long story short, after I agreed to a new camera ($200), he tells me that what he really wants is a professional digital camera. So he priced them and said that he can get one for $600, but that he was going to cover the difference ($400) from his mad money savings. He said he had $250 saved, and that he was going to wait until he had the rest to buy it. I figured that as long as it doesn't cost more of household money then originally agreed upon ($200), I don't care what he does with his mad money. I figured that at his savings rate he should be able to get his camera by September.

Imagine my shock when two days later he came home with a new camera. He charged $806 on the credit card to buy it. I was livid and completely blind sighted. After not talking to him for a day, I told him that I need to know right now how he is planning to pay for it. So his first response was to return it, but that was not feasible, he already opened the camera and the memory card and nobody was going to take it back. So he basically handed me $200 and said that this was his mad money savings toward the price and that he was going to pay off another $80 per months until it is paid off (mid-September). When I asked him where another promised $50 was, he said that that was money from his dad (FIL). To me that was a misrepresentation. Since he said the day before that he had $250 of his own money, and now tells me that he counted his dad's money into that amount. I must say that FIL is very flaky and even though he did contribute that $50, it was not a given just because he promised. (I could have covered that amount from my savings as well if was necessary). Basically, at that moment, I felt like I was blind sighted all over again. Fast forward to today, DH is paying back the difference and I make sure he only get $120 a month of allowance instead of $200 until that is done.

However, there is a bigger problem. I am finding that I do not trust him anymore when it comes to money. I constantly double check everything and question him about every single purchase outside of allowance. And that bothers more then money. I am in the process of trying to straighten out my credit score and every time I think about, I get mad all over again. Because my score dropped so drastically and so close to the purchase of the home, it will very negatively affect our ability to get a good interest rate on the mortgage. We may end up in the position where my Mom might have to get involved and either co-sign the mortgage or take the mortgage entirely in her name. The good part is that my Mom will be more then willing to do that for us and her credit score is 820.

I guess I am asking what I can do at this point to build up that trust again. Every time I think I might relax a bit, I am afraid that he will do something stupid and expensive again.

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I'm rather stuck on the fact you have two children in daycare (and now a nanny) and you aren't working. I didn't read that you were ill or in anyway unable to care for the children while your husband was at work. That seems like a big chunk of money which could certainly be put to better use. Did I miss something?


    Bookmark   July 13, 2006 at 2:57AM
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I applaud your efforts to get your family on the "straight and narrow". It takes commitment and a lot of soul-searching. But there is no reason you should be shouldering the entirety of the financial responsibility and you ARE. Where is your husband in this whole process? why is he not involved? what did he do that got him a "pass" from the grim reality of financial ineptitude and laziness?

Being married can be very hard work when adversity raises its head, and if BOTH of you aren't working together to achieve a sound financial footing you won't ever attain one. Your husband obviously doens't "get it" or does he care. He doesn't have to; you're doing it all for him! And every time you do the bills, portion out the allowance, and make the sacrifices for him you ENABLE his own inability to deal appropriately with his finances... and so do your parents and so do his parents! He doesn't know how to be financially responsible.

He needs to return the expensive camera and content himself with the $200 model! I urge you to check out Oprah's "Debt Diet". there is much good advice offered, and yesterday's show was devoted to how the couples feel about money and how inability and unwillingness to deal adequately with it is little more than a symptom of other things. And it's a very common malaise.

Household finances isn't a "spectator sport"! your husband needs to get involved in a positive way and you must insist on that. JMO

    Bookmark   July 13, 2006 at 5:30AM
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DH (let the "D" stand for what you want) hasn't learned much about money if a jointly-agreed-to $200 digital camera morphs into a much-more-expensive "pro" digital. Definitely do not take this guy car-shopping! :-p

Seriously, the other two posters are right. If DH has not yet learned what poor credit can do to you all, you are shoveling sand against the tide. If the place that sold him the camera won't take it back for a refund, make him sell it on eBay or craigslist or one of the photo Web sites ("buyer's remorse"). I'm guessing he doesn't need anything close to a "pro" camera for his picture-taking anyway and this will help address the "easier to ask forgiveness than permission" behavior.

And if there's some way you could get some financial counseling (either through his work or your church or whatever), get it. In an economy in which one income really has to stretch and retirement options are going to be pretty slim for folks your age, getting your financial ducks in a row is not an option. It's a must.

    Bookmark   July 13, 2006 at 11:28AM
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Thank you for your responses so far.

Quiltglo, I should clarify that we had two kids in day care, and them took them out and hired a nanny due to problems my older DD had in daycare. At a time I was not working, but I was a full time MBA student getting my degree in Accounting. I have graduated my MBA program in December 2005, and have been working since January 2006.

Chelone: I agree with you that I should not be doing this alone. However, DH is responsible for managing our investments (which I know nothing about except current balance in the brockerage account). I would know Stock from Mutual Fund if one hit me on the head. DH is finishing his MBA in Finance (should be done next May) has been doing OK so far. Last year he averaged us 8% annual return while using a rather conservative strategy, as well need those $$$ for our downpayment next year. He seems to have problem managing day-to-day stuff as well as curbing his spendings. The funny thing is he is a Senior Manager of Finance for a multi-national company. But when it comes to home, he just cannot do it. I make a point of discussing everything with him as far as my budget is concerned and how are doing for the month. His only requirement is that he tells me what he spends outside of his allowance so I can categorize it properly.

Steve, I agree. He has not learned all his lessons yet. To give you an example: We were paying $2,000/month for our nanny. (are you in shock?). My Dad lost his business about 4 months ago due to fire, so he had nothing to do and is basically sitting home and waiting for when my Mom will retire in a few years, so that they can move to Florida into their retirement property. So, about 2 months ago, my parents offered us that if we put younger DD in daycare, my Dad will pick both of them up in the morning and drop off little one in daycare and spend a day with older one while she is on the summer break. When school starts again, older one will go to Kindergarden and little one will be going to daycare and Dad will be dropping them off and picking them up for us, and spending time with older one since school ends at 2:30pm. Great! Thank you Mom and Dad! I have found a daycare for $500/months. I have also finished paying off our debt at that time, so according to my budget, I figured that we should be able to save $2,000/months off our take home. So I happily informed DH about this. His first response was, why we savings are $2,000 if our child care cost drops only $1,500. He looked like I cheated him out of $500/months of spending. The good part is that, after I gave him couple days to adjust to this idea, I also mentioned to him, that this saving amount is budgeted out of our net take home, and does not include Child Care Flex Reimbursements that he will be getting from his company for daycare. That is another $500/months that we can safely pocket. I have put away $2,500/months for the last two months, and he is as happy as can be. He just recently took a huge chunk of that and moved into the brokerage account to add to our downpayment fund.

The sick part is that where we live, the cost of living is so high, that our relatively high incomes do not stretch very far, which is why we are moving next year, when DH graduates his MBA program.

But back to DH's habits and my lack of trust. We are keeping the camera. I do not won't to risk any further marital issues because of it. It is a lesson learned on my part. I now check credit cards balances daily. (part of the trust issues), and he is repaying the household for the camera. It is just that I am living in a constant fear that he will pull another 'camera' episode.

Unfortunately, his family and my family money habits are so drastically different that this will be a long road to recovery for both of us.

My family moved to US in 1989 with $5,000 cash on us. I was a teenager back then. In 1993, my parents bought their co-op apartment for $80,000 CASH. This amount was saved from my Dad working $500/week job at a factory at nights, and my mom working in Dunckin Doughnats while taking classes for hospital lab technician. Then she went to work at a hospital blood lab. Since then, my parents have purchased my Dad's business that he worked for over 10 years until just recently, 2 four-family rental properties, a condo in Florida for their retirement, contributed $10,000 to our wedding costs (we covered the other half), same for my sister's wedding, and so on. They live comfortably and even though they lost Dad's income, and it is tighter then it was before, they still manage just fine.

DH's family bought a house for $32,000 in 1977. Their mortgage payment was $230/month. In 2000 when they sold that house, 22 years later, they still had $22,000 left on that mortgage. They never added a single dollar to their monthly payment, but they used to upgrade their appliances and TVs every few years. DH said he remembers getting atleast one new big ticket item in the house per year. There was also some credit card debt, but I don't know details. In 2001, MIL passed away and FIL sold the second house and moved closer to us. Between the sale of the house and what ever savings they had, he had about $140,000 to his name for his retirement plus SS and pension. Right now, 5 years late, he has zero left in savings, SS and pension do not cover his expenses, but he has a new cell phone every six months. He also just bought $750 new titanium frame glasses. He was actually bragging about those glasses, when turned out that my sister has the same frame and more advanced lenses, and they paid $350 for them through a friend who got if to her at cost.

    Bookmark   July 13, 2006 at 12:58PM
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Managing finances on a day to day, week to week, and month to month basis is what allows you MORE money to invest. I'm surprised your husband has missed this simple fact given what you've shared about his education and chosen field of vocation.

And it's not that he "can't" do it... it's that he CHOOSES not to.

    Bookmark   July 13, 2006 at 3:14PM
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I strongly suggest that you IMMEDIATELY learn everything there is to know about how your money is being invested. This is a man who was hiding large credit card debt from you - you cannot afford to be ignorant about what hes doing with the rest of the money. I'd hate for you to find out down the road that he's been doing foolish things with your retirement money, just like you found out he was letting your valuable credit rating be seriously damaged.

No matter how much you do or don't trust him, you have to have a thorough understanding of your entire financial situation, including your budget, invested money, income, expenses, taxes, mortgage, other debts, everything. All of these things work together to form your financial picture - you need make sure you understand the entire picture.

Just because the two of you are dividing up duties doesnÂt mean that either of you should be ignorant of what the other is doing. YouÂre supposed to be a team, and to work together well you both need full knowledge of whatÂs going on.

I know this may all feel overwhelming, but it's imperative that you have a good handle on ALL of your finances. You've got an MBA in accounting - understanding stocks and mutual funds is well within your abilities. A couple of good straightforward authors IÂve found are Rick Ferri (All About Index Funds), Larry Swedroe (The Only Guide to a Winning Investment Strategy You'll Ever Need). Try the library. The Vanguard Diehards forum at has a lot of knowledgeable people who can recommend other good authors and websites. It really doesnÂt have to be that complicated.

I feel for you; this is a difficult situation. But this is important stuff, so hang in there!

    Bookmark   July 13, 2006 at 3:53PM
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Your are right Chelone. DH CHOOSES not to follow household finances. And he admits so. He says that after looking at spreadsheet all day long at work, he just cannot do it again at home.

Silvercomet, I agree with you that I need to learn about hour investments. However, DH was not hiding anything from me. I may not have been clear before, but, I was the one who chose not to be involved. I always had access to all credit cards and could have checked on them if I wanted, but I did not. DH was mentioning once in a while that we are short for the month and some things will go on the credit card and be paid next months, but I never really looked into it. My fault as well as his. Yes, I am very angry about my credit score that he ruined, but I could have been following up on that as well, but I didn't. I am to blame for it as much as he is.

I do not intent to imply that DH is the only reason we are in this mess, and I have said that from the beginning. However, now that we are trying to rebuild and re-organize our finances, I hate the fact that I have the need to double check him on everything. I don't think we can be truly successful unless there is an understanding and trust between us. But with his history, I am freaking out every time there is new electronic toy on the market, because I know there is a good chance I will see in our apartment in a week.
I feel like I am between a rock and a hard place and not sure how get out. It is very emotionally draining.

    Bookmark   July 13, 2006 at 4:35PM
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Maybe if you set up a specific time once a week to bring each other up-to-date, it would feel more manageable, rather than just constantly feeling like you two have a ton of things to go over. Maybe if you're meeting and planning spending etc. on a weekly schedule, there's a chance your husband would remember or be more likely to stick to the plan?

The planning would include planning for things that he wants to buy and you want to buy, as well as paying down any debt, adding to investments etc. So maybe if he sees his wants taken into consideration he'd be better about waiting when he can't have them instantly?

Have you tried telling your husband how incredibly stressful it is for you when he spends money that the two of you don't have? I realize he probably doesn't "get" why it's so stressful, but at some point just the fact that it creates stress for you deserves consideration from him regardless of whether he feels the same stress.

I wish I had a magic answer for you! But I think you already know this is going to take some time and figuring out. Some counseling to help you two figure out how to handle all of this really might be a good way to go - sometimes an objective 3rd party is in the best position to lay out a plan that works for everyone. And the way we handle money seems to be all wrapped up in so many issues that we don't even realize - sometimes it takes someone from outside to help figure out what underlying stuff might be going on.

    Bookmark   July 13, 2006 at 5:03PM
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We've been married for 14 years now and we lived together for 3 years before that. While we were cohabitating I never allowed our finances to be comingled. It was incredibly difficult for us to make the financial transition after we married. Truly, of all things that was THE most difficult.

I have always been the "skinflint" and the "nervous nellie" when it comes to money. I remember living in a little town where there were no jobs... and how humiliating it was to have to ask for some money to go to a movie and then to ask for some for popcorn, too. An "allowance" was never offered and I had to "justify" every request for money. It was a defining time in my life. I swore, that when I got my first job NO ONE WOULD EVER USE MONEY TO CONTROL ME AGAIN. And I remember being so afraid of what I didn't know... balancing a checkbook, making intelligent decisions with savings, investing. My parents never talked about money, it was as though it was "dirty"; even though they lived frugally and lacked for nothing. I sucked it up and learned how to do those things because if I didn't, I understood I would be vulnerable and in a position to be manipulated. And you know what? it's not hard, at all! it's actually fun.

The helpmeet was much more cavalier than I with respect to money (didn't take much, lol). He was never a wanton spender, but he wasn't always so good about getting bills out on time and never lost much sleep about interest or finance charges (drove me nuts). But he had a much healthier attitude in the greater context; never laboring under the awful, nagging fears that I did.

So... after a few good fights about it we sat down for a "board meeting". We agreed to do the bills together; but I was given the responsibility to call the terms because doing so allowed me to put the kibosh on interest charges and any late fees. We worked out a strict budget and he stuck to it. We lucked out, I suppose. He's no longer is "late", pays no interest, and we no longer fight about money (he has thanked me for showing him how easy it can be!). Either of us could pick up the reins and take over in the event of catastrophe. Best of all, though, I am now at ease with money; no one controls me with it and I'm secure in the knowledge that there is plenty of it to meet whatever needs we have and even enough to spend on FUN THINGS! (imagine that?!) I will go to my grave knowing he imparted that simple belief to me; it set me free. Really.

It wasn't easy gettin' here. You mustn't allow your husband to dodge the issue by saying he's "sick of spread sheets"... that's an excuse (and it's unfair to put the responsibility for success or failure on YOU!), the spending isn't about the new toy, it's about something bigger. I'd bet a nickel on that. If you want to get to a trusting place with your finances you have begin by being honest and putting all your debts on paper, establishing a budget and being accountable for it, and sitting down TOGETHER every month.

Silvercomet is absolutely right... this is IMPORTANT stuff. It doesn't have to be unpleasant, either. One of the nicest aspects of this process for us is the time we spend together talking about what we want for our future(s). It's gone from perfunctory attention to bills and statements to presenting ideas/goals/and seeing possibilities emerge. It's empowering and it's FUN.

    Bookmark   July 13, 2006 at 5:35PM
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Wow - it's amazing two people with graduate degrees in accounting and finance have this kind of problem. I'd sell the camera on ebay if you can't return it. We had issues like you describe early on when we were married but on a much smaller scale - no kids and no MBA type incomes to work with. It passed as our incomes increased and after 28 years of marriage we have a nice mutual understanding about what we can spend and what we can't. I manage all of our finances and fortunately DH is fine with that.

    Bookmark   July 14, 2006 at 12:03AM
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Beyond all the other stuff previous posters mentioned, there is also something else that is tremendously worrisome to me.

You are buying a home? If your credit scores have fallen badly, and the interest rate will be higher, are you sure you can afford it?

You say your father isn't working but that your parents are "comfortable" and basically just waiting until they can retire to Florida.

But you know what? Your parents' situation can change at any time. Financially (like because of the stock market) or medically (do you know how fast a rehab center or an assisted-living center can eat up savings?). Having your mother co-sign or even take over the mortgage seems just plain wrong. Parents co-sign for their kids' cars all the time--fine (to a degree). But a mortgage? You seem to be relying very heavily on your parents. This is just a situation I think you need to review. Many grandparents in this country have taken on babysitting duties for the grandkids, and that's a great--and many times a necessary--thing. But the mortgage seems above and beyond--what if you guys have financial issues down the line? Do you want your parents affected by that?

On the trust issue, I really think you need to see a counselor. As you've written, your financial values are totally different than your husband's and you need not just a mediator, but an interpreter--so that both of you are hearing each other clearly. Today it's a digital camera. What's it going to be tomorrow, as you said?

Congratulations on taking the reins (or co-reins?) on the finances. Don't dwell on what was not done before. You can only change how you do things now. But until you both get to a point where there is respect for handling money (that is, when he understands what you need to do to make sure your futures are more stable), you will feel badly about not trusting him.

(But please don't do the no-speaking thing: Scream, kick the door, throw the bills in his face--do anything you need to do to get his attention and make him realize that financial security is important to you and your children.)

    Bookmark   July 15, 2006 at 10:55PM
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I agree with above responses for the most part. Financial Counseling is easy to recommend, as well as weekly 'sit-downs'. This is great as long as DH is willing. Some people just refuse counseling tho, and some won't even tolerate a 'sit-down' chat once a week. And even if they 'indulge you' in a sit-down once in awhile, it's just THAT. They tolerate it at best, nothing really sinks in.

(Time to call that Dr. "P" guy on TV! LOL!)

Seriously tho - OP set a limit of $50.00 for b-day gift. Then caved in & OK'd $200.00. So a $50.00 limit turned into an $800.00+ b-day gift.

I agree with the poster who said you need to find out immediately what DH is doing with the investments. He proved he can't (won't) take care of the household "little stuff". You need to KNOW what's going on with the big stuff.
OP - you are 'lucky' your parents are so 'helpful'. But that's just not right. You and hubby now have a NEW life together. What would have happened to you if the place you were renting was NOT your parents? You'd have been out on the streets!
It's time to cut the apron strings. No more depending on parents to fall back on. I think DH needs a reality check. It's very simple - just tell him that Mom & Dad QUIT, and now "we're on our own". (OK, that would be a lie - but you CAN tell him that you don't feel comfortable taking from your parents any longer, and from now on - you absolutely refuse to ask for or expect anything of them.)

I can't blame you for the no trust issue. Myself - I'd be watching everything for quite awhile. I'd inform my 'hubby' RIGHT NOW that there is NO room for spending this year end Holiday Season. (Yes, I've done this myself. I just QUIT doing holidays and special occasions. It has been hard, but I REFUSED to spend my little savings & charge up CC's every year to buy STUFF.)

I'm just kinda wondering tho...when you buy a house, what kind of debt you and hubby will incur...remodeling?, setting up that entertainment room?, landscaping?...brand new furniture perhaps?, and major appliances?...

OK - well that's just my ZERO cents worth...(like I'm one to speak - wait till you see me on some other posts on where to spend money that I don't have! haha!)

Just food for thought. It's your life - make the best you can of it :-)

    Bookmark   July 18, 2006 at 7:25AM
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Chelone is right on the money when she says that "the spending isn't about the new toy, it's about something bigger. I'd bet a nickel on that."

I think a part of getting the marriage on the right track is to find a way for you both to be in a comfortable space about money. Sometimes, there is much more to it than money. Keep talking and keep working on it. This will not get resolved quickly if what you are saying about him is all true.

Ask your husband how he sees you with money matters. Ask him without anger, judgement or fury. Just listen. It may surprise you.

    Bookmark   July 21, 2006 at 1:51AM
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Your parents were giving you a good deal on rent as it was - and hubby (the guy with the M.B.A., yet!) "neglected" to pay them three months' rent last year?

What a cheat!

Does he have no sense of shame over that (to me, "rotten") trick?

Sounds to me like he's acting like a little kid - and you're the Mommy that's in charge of his life and that he tries (successfuly) to put one over on!

Does this guy know the difference between dark and daylight?

ole joyful

    Bookmark   July 21, 2006 at 8:24PM
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Hi again. Sorry it took me so long to get back to this post. Thanks again to everyone who replied to me post.

I have to say though, that you guys have been much harder on my DH then I have expected. For what it's worth, DH and I had a talk two days ago. Lot's of things were discussed, and probably will be discussed again at some point.

In the mean time, we are doing the mini-audit of the medical things and trying to figure out what exactly happed with my credit report and FICO score. At this point, even if we pay it off it will probably not go away, but we ran his credit and one item that he stil had on his report seem to have disapeared. So will get his FICO and hopefully his score will go up high enough so that we won't have to worry about a mortgage interest rate. The good thing is that according to online calculators we can get 2.5 times the amount of mortgage that we will need.

As for the whole issue we had with a camera, he knows that he will have to work towards getting my trust back. He knew I was very hurt by the whole thing, but he had no clue just how much this has affected me. He has even discussed this whole camera thing with his therapist which I did not know about until two days ago.

As for the help from my parents, there is nothing I can do about that right now. I don't like having to rely on them, but without them we will never get out of this hole we are in. We need to get a substantial downpayment by this time next year and the only way to do it is for my parents to take on babysitting duties (which they offered, we did not ask), and continue to live in their rental until we move.

All in all, I think this was a productive conversation DH and I had, and we both know that it is by no means that last one on this topic.

Once again, thanks for your sponses, as I think that as upseting as some of them were, they are what pushed me to actually start talking about it. DH and I are both bad a communicating our feelings/thought in a timely maner, and sometimes by the time we get to it the demage is done.


    Bookmark   July 24, 2006 at 11:23AM
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From what I have read, this thread should be titled "8 steps forward, 1 step back". It seems like you have made incredible progress since taking over the finances. I'm not defending your husband, but I think I can understand his actions on the camera thing. For example, I could see myself in a store giving in to the sales pitch if my wife was always telling me what I could or could not spend and I had agreed only as a point of capitulation. "I make a lot of our money--I should be have the right to decide on what camera I want to buy instead of being told how my dollars will be spent."

I don't know what really went through his head, but I think it's great that you are talking about it since the issue isn't really about money. In a marriage, the zenith is the ability to have shared goals toward which you learn to work together to reach.

Aside from the camera incident, your husband seems to in the game. Consider how much trouble some other couples are in and count your blessings. It could have been a sports car or worse.


    Bookmark   July 27, 2006 at 2:40AM
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