Dishwasher Venting

research71November 27, 2009

I'm going CRAZY researching dishwashers. Right now I'm looking at the Maytag line with the SS interior. It seems they have revamped their dishwasher line, and from the reviews that are out there, they appear to be a great dishwasher. I love the fully integraged controls, however, when you opt for the integrated controls, then the venting is on the top too...aimed right at the countertop. Won't this ruin my traditional countertop?? Looking for feedback from others who have the venting at the top of the dishwasher.

Thank you for your help!

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antss

If it's so new , how can there be any reviews that accurately give a picture of this unit?

If it vents steam onto the underside of a laminate counter it will surely ruin the partical board substrate. It's just a question of when.

Really poor design, and they had a slew of units from which to copy.

Maytag is not the same co. it was even a decade ago. In reality it's not really a co. at all but a "brand" which was swallowed up by Whirlpool because the lost sight of what they really did well - washers and dryers. Great history of American economics though - make bad decisions and the market will crush you.

If you want a good hidden control dishwasher - buy one from a company that knows how to make them , not from a marketer.

    Bookmark   November 27, 2009 at 2:26PM
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sparky823

Look again and see if you can find the Maytags that are ventless. Some of the high end used to be ventless. The one you are looking at may be made by Whirlpool design now and use the top vent.
If you find the Maytag made models instead of the latest that is part Maytag/part Wpool then the Maytag will have a 1/3 hp motor whereas the Wpools only have something like a 1/8hp motor. Look through the models online at AJMadison and see if they still have the ventless models.
Hope this helps.

    Bookmark   November 27, 2009 at 2:32PM
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charlyinfl

The top vent is closed during the cycle and 4 to 6 hours thereafter. So no steam or moist air is released.

    Bookmark   November 27, 2009 at 3:59PM
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lee676

Several - all? - of the new Maytag dishwashers are rebadged Whirlpools with the same basic (pretty crappy, IMO) design. If the exhaust vent on the top left of the inner door panel is round, you're looking at a Whirlpool clone. The bottom of the tub (except for the rotating spray arm) will look exactly like any Whirlpool-brand dishwashers in the store - compare them and it will be obvious.

Like antss said, it will eventually destroy the underside of your laminate countertop, unless the underside of your countertop is laminated rather than exposed particle board or substrate. I'd choose a brand without an exhaust vent (LG, Samsung, Bosch, many others) instead.

    Bookmark   November 28, 2009 at 6:26AM
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antss

charly - "The top vent is closed during the cycle and 4 to 6 hours thereafter. So no steam or moist air is released."

Think about this - it makes absolutly no sense, why would there be a vent at all if it doesn't let something escape after a cycle? I'm not framiliar with these but have seen a lot of DW's over the years and those that have vents use them to exhaust warm moist air after running, even the much ballyhooed Miele.

Lee's advice is sound , get a DW made by a DW company and one that doesn't exhaust steam onto your wooden countertop.

    Bookmark   November 28, 2009 at 9:59AM
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Brent

We went from a Whirlpool (almost 20 years ago), to a KA (only 6 years old, before we had to get rid of it) to a Miele. We learnt that the venting destroys the underside of the counter-top. So, when we moved into our home we put a coating of silicone under the counter-top before the Miele went in.

Might as well cover our butts ( and as well, the counter-top(. :)

    Bookmark   November 28, 2009 at 12:03PM
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aprince

on page ten of the installation instructions of a KA dishwasher, it refers to installation of the "moisture barrier", also known as a deflector. This aluminum type strip adequately "deflects" moisture away from the underside of your counter.

    Bookmark   November 28, 2009 at 1:13PM
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charlyinfl

Sorry I did not give more details. I actually own and use a similar unit. I'm on my 2nd Kitchenaid with the top vent. It does not release any steam or moist air. I had questions about the vent as does Reasearch71. I saw the Maytag at Home Depot and it resembles my Kitchenaid. I'm guessing they are much the same.

A serviceman showed in me in the technical information included with my machine that the vent stays closed when the machine runs and then for 4 or 6 hours afterward. The instruction manual says the vent is open when the machine is off to allow air to circulate and prevent odors. Something that I had experienced with a non-vented Bosch.

Also during a call to the Kitchenaid 800# I was told it was a child safety feature.

    Bookmark   November 28, 2009 at 5:13PM
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antss

"A serviceman showed in me in the technical information included with my machine that the vent stays closed when the machine runs and then for 4 or 6 hours afterward. The instruction manual says the vent is open when the machine is off to allow air to circulate and prevent odors."

I'm not in a position to refute this, though it just doesn't make sense to me. They seem to be the only one(S) to need to get rid of these odors. Why do they have odors in the first place? And..........if it's really that smelly in there do I want it wafting into my kitchen?

    Bookmark   November 28, 2009 at 9:05PM
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lee676

Whirlpool uses about a dozen different brand names for similar products they make. Whirlpool, Kitchenaid, Maytag, Jenn-Air, Admiral, Amana, Roper, Magic Chef, etc., etc. They're all practically the same thing. Some Kenmore items are made by Whirlpool as well.

Whirlpool-made dishwashers (including Kitchenaid) with the vents on top have the aforementioned deflector, but not the ones with the vent on the front panel. Only the fancier ones, mostly those with full-panel doors or the ones that accept a cabinet panel, use the top vent.

    Bookmark   November 28, 2009 at 11:02PM
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charlyinfl

antss, et al, see page 7 in the link. Hopefully this will explain the original posters inquiry. You guys are worse than Fox news with the speculation & misinformation mongering.

Here is a link that might be useful: owners guide

    Bookmark   November 29, 2009 at 9:41AM
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research71

charlyinfl,
Thanks SO much for the info. I couldn't figure out why DW companies would design a dishwasher with the steam vent directly under the countertop. It makes sense that is just an air vent for circulation purposes. The model I'm looking at is the Maytag MDB8859. I really like the "silverware blast" feature, and also the steam option. And the tiered top tray appeals to me too. I'm always putting a tall cookie sheet or pan in the bottom rack.

    Bookmark   November 29, 2009 at 3:07PM
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antss

worse than Fox............yea, cept I own up when I'm wrong.

    Bookmark   November 29, 2009 at 3:36PM
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dickross

At the end of the rinse cycle the dishes are hot and wet and the dishwasher is full of hot moist air. Somehow someway at some point, that moisture has to be vented in order to end up with dry dishes.
The current user manual on the kitchen aid website no longer mentions the vent being closed. The installation instructions imply that some models do not require a "Vapor shield". But no hints as to which models??

I have a top venting kitchen aid. I've never noticed any noise from the vent opening or closing at odd times.

I checked during a cycle and there does seem to be a little hot air"steam?) coming out during the wash cycle, and a little more comes out during the drying cycle. But not enough to show a visible steam cloud like my 10 year old whirlpool did.

If I had a wood or particle board countertop, I would put a vapor barrier under the counter in the vicinity of the dishwasher regardless of the manufacturer's recomendations. It's cheap insurance

    Bookmark   November 29, 2009 at 4:50PM
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antss

"at some point, that moisture has to be vented in order to end up with dry dishes"

not exactly. Almost all euro DW's use a condensing form of drying. They do not vent after a cycle, but you need to leave the door closed after the washing stops for a while the program finishes or like all DW's you'll let that steam escape.

    Bookmark   November 30, 2009 at 9:13AM
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davidro1

antss is correct once again.

I'm not happy seeing members vaunt a manufacturer's new offering, appearing for all the world like paid promoters plants and shills. Whether newly signed in, or oldtime members.

Listen to antss and don't try to correct him. Add new information based on how much you think you know, without trying to contradict him. It'll all get figured out soon afterwards.

Condensing means that cool room air is sent thru a tube to touch the outside side of the stainless steel tub, and this cooling forces the hot steam vapor to condense on that wall, trickle down the wall and get pumped out. As far as I know. I do know that I have seen the air channel myself. I asked showroom people to unscrew the exterior plating of their uninstalled dishwashers so I could see the air tube channel as well as other parts that I obliged them to show me. I don't believe the average rep, in any business, and what I expect from myself is to dig deeper, to look one level deeper than what they have been trained to say. In any business.

So, the knowledge that stainless tubs allow a form of drying that takes less heat (less energy cost too) answers the very first question asked by research71 about stainless (versus plastic) tubs.

When antss said euro-style he meant that kind of condensing.
I'll guess many Asian-style dishwashers have it too.

In another thread, someone tried to create fear confusion and doubt about what antss called eurostyle, because he used the term "euro" as a means to say it ain't no good in the USA. The person who did that was one of our two persistent posters from above, who seem keen to create misinformation. My view.

In another thread, someone tried to create fear confusion and doubt about stainless tubs. Quote " you've got the million dollar question...which one should you replace it with? I've scoured these boards, and there is not an answer to that question. Every dishwasher brand has problems and issues. It comes down to what's actually important to YOU. I've decided I'm not spending a lot on a dishwasher. I don't need the stainless steel interior...there's no way a dishwasher nowadays will outlast the plastic tub, so what's the point of stainless steel? (end quote) "

The person who wrote that was one of our two persistent posters from above, who seem keen to create misinformation. My view.

I'll be happy to add more evidence to the series.

h.t.h.
-david

    Bookmark   November 30, 2009 at 11:06AM
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research71

First...I tend to believe something I see in writing FROM a manufacturer over an opinion from another poster. Sorry...just the way I roll.
Secondly, I wasn't VAUNTING Maytag's new line...I'd like to know what other consumer think. I do not work for Maytag.
Thirdly, I have since changed my mind from plastic tub to stainless steel tub after reading some reviews on another site as to the benefits of stainless steel. I have had an appliance store, as well as consumer reports reseach, tell me the stainless steel interior is not worth the upgrade in price. SO I was trying to be devil's advocate to see what all the rage of stainless steel is for. If it's to "look nice" when you open the door, I don't want it. I want it to be "functional" if I'm going to pay extra for it.
I'm sorry if I have created disharmony on this board. It wasn't my intention.

    Bookmark   December 1, 2009 at 10:53AM
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monicakm_gw

research71, no need to apologize. There is absolutely no *dishharmony* created by your questions/concerns. Seems like in this age of information overload, the more one learns, the more questions one has.
As for top venting, my new KA has it. It came with a silver foil lined moisture barrier strip that adheres to the underside of the counter. Now, maybe it's because I don't use the heated dry cycle, or I'm not feeling for it at the right time, but I've yet to feel any measurable amt of steam escape from the vent on my KA dishwasher.
Monica

    Bookmark   December 1, 2009 at 11:15AM
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mrtimewise

Monica,

Please confirm/describe the silver foil tape you mentioned. Is this an adhesive backed aluminum tape...very thin and flexible? About 2" wide? Is it the same as the tape used to seal duct work for a forced air furnace when higher temperatures are a concern?

I ask because I have decided to protect the wood underside of the forward edge of our Kohler Pro TaskCenter. The wood there is untreated timber, not particle board, so it is slightly less susceptible to moisture problems. Nevertheless, I've already applied Minwax "Helmsman" spar urethane varnish to protect the wood from moisture, and I would like to provide additional protection.

We have a new Bosch which does not vent along the top under the counter edge. Still, when the door is opened just after the washing cycle finishes, there is a blast of high temperature moist air that escapes.

I was thinking of fabricating/installing an aluminum or stainless steel plate like those provided by some dishwasher manufacturers. However, the tape I believe you will describe might very well be what I can use instead...and I have a great amount of it.

    Bookmark   December 1, 2009 at 12:02PM
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monicakm_gw

>>Is this an adhesive backed aluminum tape...very thin and flexible? About 2" wide?Yes, but I can't be positive about the width of the tape because it extends behind the rubber gasket around the dw frame.
My husband used the same Minwax product on the v-groove porch ceiling he installed this summer. I'm thinking 3 coats.
Monica

    Bookmark   December 1, 2009 at 1:31PM
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mrtimewise

Thanks, Monica, for the confirmation. I'll pull the dishwasher out tonight and apply the tape all around the opening.

    Bookmark   December 1, 2009 at 5:03PM
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lee676

You might look at Samsung dishwashers which also have a tiered top rack (and roomier than Maytag's to boot), but are ventless and don't have cheap exposed heating elements like Maytag's. The top rack is height-adjustable on some models.

    Bookmark   December 11, 2009 at 12:45PM
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research71

Hmmm....I'll have to go look at the Samsungs. They were not in my radar. I like the countdown on the outside, the hidden heating element, and like you said, the tiered top rack. They don't have great reviews, which makes me a little leary. Do you have one lee676? Would like a review from you if you do have one.

    Bookmark   December 16, 2009 at 10:28AM
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melisande

The Kenmore we just bought has a vent out the front, not under the lip of the counter. We saw that as a plus.

The Bosch now sitting in the back room had no vent, but in our humid coastal climate, it also never ever got dry inside and did smell.

    Bookmark   January 2, 2010 at 11:10PM
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melisande

A word on dishwasher venting. Whether they have a vent or not, if you open the dishwasher before all the hot steam is condensed down, it will come swooshing out into your face and the counter top. Having it directed into one tiny spot on the underside of the countertop seems couter-intuitive - but having to wait SIX HOURS to open the dishwasher, for some of us, is also counter-intuitive.

This is why some of us like the old-fashioned heating units (even if we don't let them run till the dishes are completely dry). At least they get the steam into some state that doesn't just condense on the bottoms of mugs and bowls. Theoretically (I believe) this steam goes out the vent. At some point.

Our new dishwasher isn't installed. We have a ventless-Bosch sitting uninstalled as well (ventless didn't work for us - maybe the climate here). But, we chose one that vents out the front (not up - but out). Lots of things create steam in our kitchen, some steam has got to be okay.

I'll try to review this aspect of the new dishwasher (whether it steams everything up).

    Bookmark   January 3, 2010 at 7:21PM
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kucharsk

Note that at least the upper end Mieles with door-top controls specifically come with a steam guard to be mounted onto the underside of counters that may suffer long term ill effects from steam release.

    Bookmark   January 4, 2010 at 9:46AM
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davidro1

Any flat plastic can be a steam guard. So, the Miele steam guard is No big deal.

-
Looks like this tread is now going to focus on "How Steam Vents out of Dishwashers". A fine idea.

Some DW have a visible vent in front, under the counter.

The other type does not. (Does not have a visible vent in front, under the counter.)

Does anyone know about the steam vent tube that is underneath it?
It starts on the side of the tub, and goes under the tub.
I'd like to know more.
(Instead of writing out here what I think I know or have seen or have been told when I called the 1-888-tech-support lines of various manufacturers.)
-

    Bookmark   January 4, 2010 at 1:07PM
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antss

kucharsk , david , et al.

Miele has included their steam guard with those units for years and not as an afterthought. It's preventative maintenance for those that install their (miele) DW's under wooden countertops, which is a very small % in the U.S. market. It is also really an added measure to compensate for their customers who choose to ignore the instructions long term and open the door before the program is finished. With the exception of the La Perla they do not exhaust steam underneath the countertop edge.

    Bookmark   January 4, 2010 at 1:30PM
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jamdar

I have been researching dishwasher for 4 months and LG and Samsung have the worst repair record according to Consumers guide, they have a 23% repair rate and are at the bottom. Most other brands were between 8-14.

    Bookmark   May 7, 2010 at 6:22PM
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jamdar

Anyone have any advice on waterproofing the underneath of our counter to protect from moisture just in case? the wood is MDF or particle board, dont know the difference. Any advice would be helpful.

    Bookmark   May 7, 2010 at 7:40PM
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lee676

It seems Sears and Kenmore have had enough of steam-vent-induced countertop damage problems - their new line of Kenmore Elite dishwashers will include new fan-assisted drying, with internal vents that blow heated air around for faster drying. There are no visible vents on either the front or top. There is an exposed heating element though.

These dishwashers will also have a double-orbital lower wash arm to help water reach into the corners (not really a new idea - Smeg had it decades ago - but Kenmore puts all of the the water jets on the orbital washarms). I don't know the manufacturer yet having not seen one IRL yet. Probably Whirlpool or Electrolux, as I doubt Kenmore's other dishwasher suppliers would revert to exposed heating elements.

Here is a link that might be useful: New Kenmore Elite dishwashers - YouTube

    Bookmark   August 10, 2010 at 7:57PM
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dljcmadc_yahoo_com

Where do I order a dishwasher air vent

    Bookmark   December 20, 2010 at 2:19PM
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davidro1

"Air gap" is the term. Web search with those two words. It's a thingie in the DWV plumbing section. To know more about the general topic, search about "indirect drains" like for example "standpipe drains" used everywhere for washing machines. Indirect drains (methods of piping them) are interchangeable, as long as the flow is big enough. You could have a standpipe drain in your kitchen for your dishwasher, for example. This is because the dishwasher drain expels less water than a washing machine.

It has nothing to do with the subject of this thread, which was a different kind of "vent" than the air gap.

    Bookmark   December 20, 2010 at 4:14PM
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