framers only using two nails

jasburritoAugust 20, 2014

update there were four. (wrong nails)
Went to check the progress of new home construction and found wall studs only had two nails. one top,one bottom. seems every stud should have two. theres already another 2x4 on top. How can this be fixed properly? Think they were trying to save money only using two nails total. studs all spin? Also noticed two of the tji floor joist were cut short. The framers added four 2x4s to exstend them to sill plate? Makes me think theres more issues. any ideas on how to resolve this. I showed my builder the spinning studs. He said that the framers were prob gonna toe nail them all later. any helpful ideas would be great. cannot sleep i am so mad. will get pics tomarrow. huge thanks

This post was edited by jasburrito on Thu, Aug 21, 14 at 1:04

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bus_driver

Your concerns are genuine, the problems you see are serious. You will not find all the problems. Forget about buying that house if that is an option for you. Or hire your own expert to be on site at all times to inspect the work as it is being done.
In my case, the house was being built for cash, no borrowed money. If I discovered such a serious problem, those people would be told to leave and never return. And I did exactly that with two different crews.

    Bookmark   August 20, 2014 at 7:09AM
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renovator8

Stud nailing at the bottom plate should be:
toe-nailed - 3-8d or 2-16d
or
end nailed - 2-16d

Studs at the top plate should be:
end nailed - 2-16d

All studs should be continuous from sole to top plate.

Short TJI's should be replaced.

Your builder's explanation is ridiculous; it saves no time to omit the second nail. Perhaps they want to locate the doors later but the savings is trivial. Do you own the project? What is your relationship to the builder? Is there no building code in effect or building official inspection? Is there a bank involved?

    Bookmark   August 20, 2014 at 7:49AM
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sombreuil_mongrel

With the walls stood up, you can't see the nails driven through from the plates when it was built flat on the deck. So, any nail you are seeing is an extra toe nail they added later. Ask that they cut one stud out with a sawzall and see if this is not the case, then apologize profusely and buy them some drinks, of say "WTF is going on here, I'm not paying for this jack-leg work!"
Casey

    Bookmark   August 20, 2014 at 9:36AM
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Bronco33

I would insist they add simpson strong tie sp4 (preferable) or sp2 to the top plate connection and sp1 to the bottom plate connection. After the builder or framers swallows that chunk of change I bet they change their practice.

The short floor joist must be replaced. Find the manufacturer and version of joist used and go online to download the installation guide. It covers virtually every scenario and specifies bearing length. If they are not installed by the book, make it an issue.

Your problems are correctable, but it's going to be up to the builder to make it right and to bare the cost of the corrections.

    Bookmark   August 20, 2014 at 10:50AM
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jasburrito

Think I found the problem. There only using 10d. .one20. So almost my whole house is framed with wrong nails?
thanks

This post was edited by jasburrito on Thu, Aug 21, 14 at 1:23

    Bookmark   August 20, 2014 at 12:01PM
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jasburrito

There were four nails. .one two zero

This post was edited by jasburrito on Fri, Aug 22, 14 at 1:25

    Bookmark   August 20, 2014 at 12:06PM
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SouthCountryGuy Zone 4b-5 SE BC

I would not let the people that did this work fix it. It is not that they made a mistake it is shear incompetence. Fire them, hire someone new and have them bill you separately for the fix. Then deduct that from what you would have owed the original guys. Allowing them to continue would be the worst mistake you make on this build.

Those nails wouldn't meet my building code either. Here you must use 3 1/4" or 12d nails. Second, I know some places also don't allow clipped head nails. Not sure if this applies to you.

SCG

    Bookmark   August 20, 2014 at 12:18PM
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jasburrito

So I thought there were only two nail per. There's two just wrong ones.thanks.

    Bookmark   August 20, 2014 at 12:27PM
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jasburrito

double post

This post was edited by jasburrito on Thu, Aug 21, 14 at 1:06

    Bookmark   August 20, 2014 at 12:43PM
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millworkman

As far as I know 10d nails are still commonly used for framing, not saying what he is doing is correct just that he may not be using the wring ones.

    Bookmark   August 20, 2014 at 3:01PM
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jasburrito

Framers are off the job. Not sure if builder fired them or not. He said all the framers use those nails. Ya right!. Builder is at code department now. I am thinking it all needs tore down. Toe nailing is gonna spit all my wood.

    Bookmark   August 20, 2014 at 3:12PM
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millworkman

Every house I have ever seen has toe nailed lumber, never an issue from what I have seen and heard.....

    Bookmark   August 20, 2014 at 8:18PM
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jasburrito

OK but my whole house had been framed with 10d .120. These nail are not shown for any use in my code book. They do show some 10d commons allowed. But they are .131. I am thinking they need to start over. I already have damaged studs from the framers trying to toenail with the ,120s. I stopped by other houses being built by same builder and they all used 10d .131 and 16d. Any more advice. Thanks

    Bookmark   August 20, 2014 at 10:43PM
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robin0919

Stop and go talk to the building inspectors in your town. If you don't have inspectors in your area covering construction, go hire one NOW!! Stop everything until you get this done.

    Bookmark   August 20, 2014 at 11:28PM
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jasburrito

The builder has set a meeting with inspector. I feel it needs to be tore down. I am sure the builder is gonna smooze inspector into passing it when that time comes. His fix is prob gonna be toe nail with 10d .131 (12d).Few 16ds., So they will add nails in easy spots and call good. Thats not cool with me. i will try to meet with inspector on my own also. Seems to me that the best thing to do is start over. Just wish the builder or framer would have been doing there job.

I may find god before to long.
any more tips are always great. post um. sure theres a funny in all this.
huge thanks and good luck with your projects to.
gonna thow out a cheers too.

    Bookmark   August 21, 2014 at 1:01AM
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jasburrito

O ya. Called home depot and mernards to ask what size nails i needed to frame up some walls. they both responded that they could lose there jobs if they told me what size nails to use. Neat.

    Bookmark   August 21, 2014 at 1:28AM
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renovator8

The nails essentially resist the horizontal shear force from wind on the wall so it is the total thickness of the nails that is important and there is nothing wrong with adding toe-nails top or bottom. If a stud splits it can be replaced.

The exterior sheathing resists the up lift force and the nails listed in the nailing table in the building code (if there is a building code) probably have a factor of safety of 2. Your house envelope is not in any danger.

The inspector will settle the issue. He does not have the authority to allow nails that do not meet the building code although in some jurisdictions he can allow an equivalent if properly proposed with written evidence of equivalency.

The nailing issue is easily resolved but there may be other more important issues that the GC has ignored. I would be looking at headers, blocking, bracing, metal connectors and bearing because I have found that even the best contractors get those details wrong. Do not rely on the building inspector to catch deficiencies - that's not his responsibility. Without independent inspection you are relying on the GC to supervise not only the subs but himself and his own forces. That creates a conflict of interest that sometime works out well and somethings does not.

    Bookmark   August 21, 2014 at 6:07AM
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jasburrito

Removed.

This post was edited by jasburrito on Fri, Aug 22, 14 at 22:49

    Bookmark   August 22, 2014 at 1:35AM
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jasburrito

Removed

This post was edited by jasburrito on Fri, Aug 22, 14 at 22:40

    Bookmark   August 22, 2014 at 1:37AM
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jasburrito

Removing all pics. Thanks

This post was edited by jasburrito on Fri, Aug 22, 14 at 22:53

    Bookmark   August 22, 2014 at 1:39AM
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jasburrito

Gone

This post was edited by jasburrito on Sat, Aug 23, 14 at 0:41

    Bookmark   August 22, 2014 at 1:41AM
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jasburrito

Removed

This post was edited by jasburrito on Sat, Aug 23, 14 at 0:30

    Bookmark   August 22, 2014 at 1:43AM
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jasburrito

Thanks

This post was edited by jasburrito on Sat, Aug 23, 14 at 0:45

    Bookmark   August 22, 2014 at 1:45AM
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jasburrito

Never stops. Have 77 pics of things that look like crud. Gone.

This post was edited by jasburrito on Sat, Aug 23, 14 at 0:48

    Bookmark   August 22, 2014 at 1:48AM
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jasburrito

I will pray. Thanks again.

    Bookmark   August 22, 2014 at 1:52AM
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jasburrito

Great news. the house is being torn down to the foundation. All new materials. Dumpsters coming Monday. Thanks again for all the help. Now I can finally sleep.

    Bookmark   August 22, 2014 at 10:18PM
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robin0919

Did the inspectors condemn it? Where are you in the country?

    Bookmark   August 22, 2014 at 11:00PM
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jasburrito

Inspector was never on the job. It was pretty self explanatory. Thousands of wrong nails were used. Huge liability.rust belt. Builder knew it was wrong and is doing the right thing. And he has gained my respect back. Thank.

This post was edited by jasburrito on Sat, Aug 23, 14 at 1:00

    Bookmark   August 23, 2014 at 12:36AM
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