Would love your input on appliance choices

rjremodelAugust 19, 2013

Been doing lots of research. Currently thinking of the following and would love your opinions/experience on performance and service for each of these

Combi-Steam Oven -- had narrowed it down to Miele and Wolf. Like that the Miele returns the gathered water to a separate container instead of the same container than the fresh water and that the Miele has a broiler element. But have good things about the Wolf. Others are all too small

30" Single Convection Wall Oven -- struggling still with this one. DH says we should go with the Miele since it would match the Combi Steam. Wolf's coming out with the new M line which looks great, but won't be until out until 1st Qtr 2014 and worried about the posts on interior chipping. Other thought was the Capital Maestro (i like the moist cook feature) but DH not sure about Capital.

36" Induction Cooktop - Again, thinking about the Miele. Like the individual timers, the auto boost and the power. I like the looks of the Wolf too. Have also looked at GE, but no individual timers. Wolf is coming out with a bridged induction but not until at least 3rd Quarter 2014. Like the Thermador Freedom concept but not crazy all the metal trim.

Dishwasher: Miele Dimension -- Not sure the extra few features of the Diamond are worth the price.

Washer/Dryer - Considering the new GE Right Height which just came out this summer. Made in Louisville. Has tons of features and like the idea that it's half-way between a no-pedestal or pedestal washer. Also considering the GE GFWS2600F (regular height), but don't know where it is made. Also considering Whirlpool Duet Steam. Lost the battle with DH about Miele. He wants a full size washer with a door that swings to the left.

Range hood. Need lots of help here. Haven't done enough research. We want either just an insert or one that is almost invisible (under the counter and pulls out). We are not looking for kitchen jewelry. Except for the ovens, all our appliances will have counter fronts as our kitchen flows directly from the living/dining room. Quiet is probably the #1 priority followed by ability to remove odors.

Fridge - Sub-Zero 36" bottom freezer, built-in, left-hinge door. DH wants to put the ovens to the right of the Fridge to leave maximum uninterrupted counter space in rest of L-shaped kitchen (with island in the middle, with the short end opposite the ovens).

Would love input on all these choices from y'all.

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How powerful a vent hood is needed above induction cooktops?

This post was edited by rjremodel on Mon, Aug 19, 13 at 12:32

    Bookmark   August 19, 2013 at 12:30PM
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I can only comment on the dishwasher and fridge. You seem to be doing pretty high-end appliances, so I am assuming you have budget for the Diamond if you can be convinced it is worth it. I upgraded to the Diamond at the last minute and I am glad I did. I also was not sure it was worth paying up but in for a penny, in for a pound. I like the auto-open at the end of the cycle, the auto close (like a soft close drawer and the LED lights. I think the lights are great. Also, you get a 5 year warranty.

I have the SZ FD 36" which is exactly the same as the model you are looking at except that there are two doors. I love it.

The only comment I have on your cooktop is that in my view, it is always good to go bigger to have room to spread out. You would be surprised at the difference the 6" makes. I have a 36" Blue Star range and love the room. And with all the other high-end appliances you are using, I think the 30" will make it seem like you have cheaped out. Get the 36".

    Bookmark   August 19, 2013 at 1:02PM
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I love my Wolf Steam oven, use it almost every day, and we are so glad we ended up getting it. I can't comment on the Miele, as I have not seen or used it.

I have the Dimensions Plus and love it as a DW, didn't need the extra's that the Diamond offered, so we save a few $'s on that.

I agree, going bigger with a cooktop is almost always better. Even if you don't use the 5 or 6 burners (HOBs) all the time at least you have the extra space and things are crowded. I agree if you are going high end with everything else, why skimp down to a 30". It is not that big of a difference cost wise, as long as you have time room go with the 36".

What size vent hood do you need for induction, I don't know that answer to that to be honest. I think the normal rule of thumb is to divide your total BTUs by 100. So if you had 60,000 BTUs you would need a 600 CFM blower or larger. There are many other factors, but that at least gets you a start.

For the wall oven we have the L-Series by Wolf, 30", and we love it so far, but the steam oven gets wayyy more use.

Ours are not on the same wall/stack so having them match wasn't a big deal to us. But if you want them to match that might make your decision for you.

Best of luck, hope others will chime in with them comments on your other items.


    Bookmark   August 19, 2013 at 1:42PM
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We have the Miele 30" induction cooktop (KM5954 Canadian Model) we really like it. Because it needs so little space under it, we have a drawer immediately under the cooktop which is a nice bonus for us,

The controls work also very well and we love all the features.

    Bookmark   August 19, 2013 at 2:20PM
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"Wolf's coming out with the new M line which looks great, but won't be until out until 1st Qtr 2014 and worried about the posts on interior chipping."

Maybe they won't use blue for this.

"Other thought was the Capital Maestro (i like the moist cook feature) but DH not sure about Capital. "

I can't see the benefit of this. External moisture has nothing to do with the internal moisture of the meat. It is a matter of temperature.
Top 6 food myths

People sometimes think that a gas oven is moist heat because of the products of combustion and if you look at the flyer below they allude to this by giving a chemical equation at the top. Gas ovens ventilate the moisture out so actually are drier which is good for making a roast crispy/brown. Electric ovens tend to hold on to moisture from foods because they are not ventilated as much. Convection in an oven has nothing to do with adding moisture but is actually drying due to movement of the air. How is adding moisture making something more like a gas oven which is dry? You have to wonder who wrote this. The whole thing just seems to avoid any newer thinking based on any science.
From the PDF on Moist roast-from Capital

    Bookmark   August 20, 2013 at 1:44AM
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Thanks for all the input.

Re Ovens: One other thought for the Wall Oven which is at a different price point is the GE Profile PT9050SFSS 30" Single Convention, made in USA, Wouldn't match the Miele Combi-Steam, but that's not 100% critical. Does anyone have experience with GE ovens?

    Bookmark   August 21, 2013 at 6:27PM
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Hi -

Just a quick plug on the dishwasher front. We purchased the Miele Futura Dimension Plus for our remodeled kitchen earlier this year. My husband and I easily say that it's our favorite thing about our new kitchen, probably favorite of our entire two-story addition!

The FDP is sort of a secret model caught in there in the Dimension series between the regular models and the Diamond. The big key to us is the auto-open drying feature. Every piece in the dw is dry when we open it - including the boatload of plastics we put in for our family.

I posted on this thread with photos - you may want to take a read!

Good luck -

Here is a link that might be useful: Rave about Miele Futura Dimension Plus with photos!

    Bookmark   August 21, 2013 at 6:34PM
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rjremodel: sorry for not responding to your email about the thermador freedom cooktop. Gardenweb wouldn't let me respond directly (grrrr) and I couldn't find the right post to respond to.

I moved into my place about 2 weeks ago and have now cooked on the Thermador Freedom a few times. I love it, and it's probably my favorite of the appliances I purchased. (Maybe because I haven't used the Miele ovens much yet. :-)

The cooktop is wonderful. I love the ability to put pans on it anywhere and have it sense them and turn on magnets under the whole pan. That's been especially useful for my 12" x 20" griddle (a Chef King carbon steel one). I can plop it down right in the middle of the cooktop if I'm using it by itself, or I can put it on one side and put a couple pots on the other.

I've used a flat-bottomed wok on the stove once so far, and that worked fine too. It got really hot really fast. Too hot, really -- I had to turn it down a bit. (It was one of the flat-bottom carbon steel woks from Wok Shop.) The water I was boiling for rice at the same time came to a boil in just a couple of minutes.

The only real downsides I see are:
- Only four pans at once. I doubt I'll hit this limit, but if I do I may try using the griddle as a french top and putting small pots on that.
- It's so high-tech that I worry a bit that there's more to break than on my old, low-tech coil stove that I hated.

I'll post later about my experience with the Miele ovens. But I can report that there are no temperature issues. I've measured them with a calibrated Thermoworks probe and they're dead-on.


    Bookmark   August 22, 2013 at 1:35PM
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"External moisture has nothing to do with the internal moisture of the meat. It is a matter of temperature. "

In that, I expect you are talking about the final internal temperature.

Well, not quite that simple. Higher oven temperature means faster cooking to the same internal temperature, and results in less moisture loss. Large cuts maybe cannot take advantage of that, as outsides would be too done. Higher humidity cooking results in higher heat transfer at a given temperature, and results in less weight loss (moslty moisture).

From the link below:
"For the same final product temperature, increasing the oven air temperature significantly reduced the moisture loss in the cooked chicken patties. This reduction was due to a shorter cooking time achieved at a higher oven air temperature. Increasing product temperatures significantly increased the moisture losses. At the same oven air temperature, the moisture loss in the cooked chicken patties increased three to five times with increasing the final product temperature from 50 to 80 C"

". During thermal processing, increasing air humidity increased the product yield ... at an internal temperature of 80 C, increasing the relative humidity from 50 to 95% increased the product yield more than 10%. The product yield is related to the moisture loss during

Running counter to the hotter-oven-means-more-moist is the fact that higher oven temperature oven (cooking to the same internal temperature) results in less available soluble protein, so I guess not as good nutritionally.

For the OP, if you already are getting a combi steam oven, I would not care about the other oven having any kind of moisture feature. I read the manual on the Capital Maestro, and their feature isn't anywhere in the same class as the true combi.

Here is a link that might be useful: Heat Transfer Properties, Moisture Loss, Product Yield, and Soluble Proteins in Chicken Breast Patties During Air Convection Cooking

    Bookmark   August 22, 2013 at 9:35PM
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Regarding the hood:

If quiet is a big concern, get an external blower. Preferably on the roof, but inline in the attic is also okay. If you can fit it, get a "duct silencer", which is an inline muffler. It makes quite a difference.

Here is a link that might be useful: Fantech kitchen

    Bookmark   August 22, 2013 at 10:19PM
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Posted by attofarad
"External moisture has nothing to do with the internal moisture of the meat. It is a matter of temperature. "
In that, I expect you are talking about the final internal temperature.

I am saying that at a certain temperature the the proteins in meat will expel internal water. Almost everyone who has written about this says it is irreversible.

Higher humidity cooking results in higher heat transfer at a given temperature

agree with this

I have read that study and others. You have to ask why would meat weigh more under the circumstances laid out in the study?
Even though the proteins have expelled water and are dry, the dry fibers will have some capacity to hold moisture between the fibers. If you slice meat, you can pour the juice back over it and it will seem to reabsorb it. It can only bath the dry fibers not reverse loss of water from the fibers. A high humidity cooking environment might cause the meat to absorb some water in this way but very superficially. In this particular case they are using chicken patties and the fact that the chicken is chopped may alter how fast the water is lost/reabsorbed from between the fibers and the fact that they are patties, might give more surface area for that superficial absorption.
In any case a little increase in humidity is not going to keep the inside of a roast juicy. You could be boiling it in water and it would be dry if it goes above a certain temperature. You could slice it and pour liquid over it and it will absorb some of it between the fibers.
If you are cooking something with a lot of connective tissue, it has to be cooked to a higher temperature to melt that connective tissue. This too will bath the dry fibers and give the perception of moistness if that gelatinized connective tissue can be kept around the fibers.

    Bookmark   August 24, 2013 at 8:19AM
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