Brick molding or not?

threeapplesJune 24, 2012

Our house will be all brick and the builder says we do not need brick molding around our windows, but rather the mason will put half-bricks all the way around. The tops will have brick jack arches and limestone keystones, if that info. is relevant. Anyway, don't we need some sort of fypon (or other material) brick mold around the windows? What does the historic look call for? thanks!

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palimpsest

I would only have whatever the frame is around the window.

What is the sill going to be? Limestone?

    Bookmark   June 24, 2012 at 9:16PM
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threeapples

Brick sill. Is that ok?

    Bookmark   June 24, 2012 at 9:47PM
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renovator8

A window is installed against the sheathing before the brick is installed. If the frame of the window does not project enough to overlap the brick cladding (must overlap enough for a proper sealant seal), it is necessary to install a molding.

It appears the builder/designer wants to turn the brick at the perimeter of the window opening back toward to the sheathing to create an overlap sufficient for a sealant seal.

The effectiveness of using a half brick depends on the size of the brick, the depth of the cavity, and the projection of the window frame. Check the actual overlap to be sure it is enough to allow a backer rod and sealant.

The absence of a molding will create a thinner appearance to the window which is more modern but it is not possible to say if it will look better without seeing the house design, however, the head and sill treatment do not sound like a modern design.

If you want to use a molding ask the window supplier if they offer one as part of the window assembly or use cellular PVC (Azak, etc.) Since modern nail-fin windows do not usually allow the sill to project more than the jambs, you should probably install a sub-sill on top of the brick sill.

Make sure there is adequate flashing under the brick sill.

    Bookmark   June 25, 2012 at 9:09AM
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threeapples

Renovator8, I don't know how to answer any of your questions, but here is an image of the house that might help. I suppose I should email my architect with these questions and post back his response.

    Bookmark   June 25, 2012 at 9:49AM
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palimpsest

Brick mold is the small piece of trim that sits between the window and the brick but it does not cover the brick it adjoins the brick.

I thought you were asking about millwork that extends over or stands proud of the face of the brick like window moulding around a clapboard house.

I would have the brick form the "frame" or opening around the window.

You do *not want this:

You *do want this:

Or this:

    Bookmark   June 25, 2012 at 11:10AM
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palimpsest

So technically you do need brickmold, but you want brickmold that sits within the masonry opening of the window and has a caulkjoint between it at the brick, Not something that overlaps the brick on the face of the house. Your architect is peobably referring to that.

    Bookmark   June 25, 2012 at 11:14AM
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done_again

My house is a much different style than yours but here's what one set of front windows looks like with brick.

    Bookmark   June 25, 2012 at 11:28AM
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threeapples

Architect said we can't do this brick molding because he didn't order it to be made with the windows and it's not something that can be added later. Is this accurate? Now what do I do? Will it look awful without? Seriously, I'm never building a house again!
Thanks, everyone!

    Bookmark   June 25, 2012 at 3:06PM
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brickeyee

"A window is installed against the sheathing before the brick is installed. "

Masonry houses often have no sheathing.

Brick veneer is installed over sheathing (1 wythe thick) and is what is often now considered a 'brick house.'

    Bookmark   June 25, 2012 at 3:23PM
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cat_ky

For better protection against water intrusion, the sill should be a solid piece of stone, or concrete, rather than the brick.

    Bookmark   June 25, 2012 at 4:12PM
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threeapples

So it will look ok without it?

    Bookmark   June 25, 2012 at 4:16PM
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threeapples

Ughh. Ok. I'll see if we can do limestone instead, but my husband will likely suggest we dont for sake of additional cost.

    Bookmark   June 25, 2012 at 4:20PM
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niteshadepromises

Personally I think it will look fine. Your architects elevation drawing looks very similar to the other photos posted (the *do* photos) and they all look great.

The historic look you are going for is definitely there.

    Bookmark   June 25, 2012 at 4:42PM
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palimpsest

There are a lot of brick sills in the Georgian-Federal houses here, but a house of your stature would be more likely to have a solid sill. Either would be correct,

Could the architect spec cast stone sills?

What manufacturer of window are you doing?

For example, all-wood Marvin Double Hung windows come Standard with brick mold unless otherwise spec'd. Perhaps if the window you are using is something like Marvin, the architect is saying that he ordered them with the standard exterior detail (?)

    Bookmark   June 25, 2012 at 5:51PM
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palimpsest

Please notice in your exterior dentil molding thread that the house that emmachus posted the window sills are brick.

    Bookmark   June 25, 2012 at 5:58PM
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threeapples

Our windows are Marvin magnum, but I believe there is no brick mold on them. When I go to the house tomorrow I will post photos.

I'll see about the price for limestone sills.

    Bookmark   June 25, 2012 at 6:39PM
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palimpsest

Are your windows wood or clad exterior?

    Bookmark   June 25, 2012 at 8:11PM
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threeapples

clad exterior. i know, i know. i hate the clad and i hate our windows (long story you can probably find on the window forum), but considering we're NE Ohio it seemed the smartest thing to do even though it's not the most elegant or historical. you win some, you lose some.

    Bookmark   June 25, 2012 at 9:26PM
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millworkman

Clad aluminum exterior does not come with a brickmold as a standard item

    Bookmark   June 26, 2012 at 10:10AM
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brickeyee

Brick is just fine.

Do not omit sill flashing.
It holds the window from contact with the brick.

Copper is very much preferred.

The mortar will eat aluminum rather quickly, and the same with the galvanize coating on steel.

    Bookmark   June 26, 2012 at 10:25AM
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threeapples

So should I see about installing a brick mold of some sort? I'll have to ask my architect about window flashIng.

    Bookmark   June 26, 2012 at 11:37AM
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palimpsest

I guess it depends on what the window looks like without one and how it adjoins the brick. I thought there was brickmold no matter how minimal.

Is there a detail drawing for this?

    Bookmark   June 26, 2012 at 1:48PM
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brickeyee

It is pretty hard to get opening in brick so perfect you can just slide a window in, or even brick up to a window in a framed opening for a brick veneer job.

    Bookmark   June 26, 2012 at 2:13PM
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threeapples

i don't have a detail drawing.

what do you mean slide a window in, brickeyee? the windows are already in.

architect said aluminum flashing only, by the way, because of the cost of copper. he said aluminum is fine.

    Bookmark   June 26, 2012 at 3:37PM
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threeapples

but the windows are already in, what do you mean (sorry i'm not following)?

here are some images of the windows--do we have what we need?

    Bookmark   June 26, 2012 at 4:19PM
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renovator8

The photo below shows the aluminum Brick Molding for a Marvin Magnum Double Hung window.

The Brick Molding does not extend outward from the window frame like a traditional/historic molding would; it is flush with the frame so it also requires a partial brick to be turned back toward the sheathing.

The only difference with the added molding is that there is 1 5/16" more metal showing at the top and sides and 5/8" more at the bottom. (a 2 11/16" sub sill is also available as shown in the detail window)

I don't think the molding makes much of a difference at the top and sides because the Magnum jamb is so large but a thicker sill would make the window look considerably more historic and I think that can be added without affecting the wood wall rough opening. The brick would set against the window frame after it is installed.

    Bookmark   June 26, 2012 at 4:32PM
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threeapples

So I don't have that extra piece, right. Renovator? Don't think I can convince my builder or architect to do it. If I have a limestone sill will it look ok with what I currently have?
Thanks!

    Bookmark   June 26, 2012 at 5:38PM
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palimpsest

I think what you are going to end up with looks a lot like what we have here historically except for the sill: we have the partial brick exposure, with a thin frame appearance on most of the Geo/Fed/Greek buildings here except for the vernacular workers houses which may have very thick casings.

I think the solid sill will help the illusion.

    Bookmark   June 26, 2012 at 5:54PM
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brickeyee

Aluminum anything and Portland cement products are NOT a good mixture.

Even the run off from rain on a brick wall will attack aluminum.

    Bookmark   June 27, 2012 at 10:11AM
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threeapples

What do I do, brickeyee? My architect disagrees. What will happen over time if we use aluminum? Architect says he always uses aluminum and it's fine.

    Bookmark   June 27, 2012 at 12:14PM
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palimpsest

This is heavily painted -baked on finish isn't it?

    Bookmark   June 27, 2012 at 1:15PM
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threeapples

I have no idea if it's heavily painted. Honestly, everything g about the windows seems cheap to me (except the price)!

    Bookmark   June 27, 2012 at 5:31PM
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emmachas_gw

Have to briefly interrupt the molding thread to say, I love your brick choice. I know you were undecided for a while. Is that the Old Virginia, Old Williamsburg brick with the gray mortar?

    Bookmark   June 27, 2012 at 10:40PM
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threeapples

emmachas, how nice of you to remember. the brick on the left is old virginia old williamsburg and the right is old virginia colonial full range, both with river sand mortar. we ended up going with the one on the right, the darker and less salmon-colored one. i'm trying not to second-guess myself because it's being delivered next week! thanks for helping me decide :)

    Bookmark   June 27, 2012 at 10:46PM
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brickeyee

"My architect disagrees. What will happen over time if we use aluminum? Architect says he always uses aluminum and it's fine."

Is he going to put that in writing for 20 or 30 years?

No surface finish is perfect, and spot coating used when the material is cut to fit is going to be much weaker than a factory finish.

How long do you want it to last?

Aluminum is used in a lot of commercial work since the intended lifetime is not all that long.

It will be badly damaged by the time a 30 year mortgage is paid off, but that is probably past the life of the windows anyway.

    Bookmark   June 28, 2012 at 10:38AM
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threeapples

Brickeyee, I
Don't know what to do. If we have issues down the line will it require Yalu g the brick off or replacing the windows? Sorry for the potentially silly question, I clearly am very new to this and nobody in the building process is helping us build is advising us.

    Bookmark   June 28, 2012 at 10:51AM
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