DenariusMay 19, 2013

I purchased a Miele DW for my new construction and the builder installed for me. It doesnt look right to me...kinda sticks out of the cabinets..shouldnt the integrated model be flush? Here is a picture (will follow up with another). Can anyone tell me if this looks installed correctly?

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Here is a close up...not sure why all my pics are rotated. Notice the rivets on the side are visible...is this normal?

    Bookmark   May 19, 2013 at 12:06AM
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It should be flush with the surrounding cabinet doors.
Call them back and say it wasn't installed properly.

    Bookmark   May 19, 2013 at 3:28AM
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It should be flush with the surrounding cabinet doors.
Call them back and say it wasn't installed properly.

    Bookmark   May 19, 2013 at 3:29AM
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Here's the picture "touched up and rotated".

I have a 31" Dell monitor and it's too much work to rotate it (LOL).


    Bookmark   May 19, 2013 at 9:06AM
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Fauguy , I disagree with you about it being installed improperly.

I think if you'll take a straight edge and place it across the DW front you'll find it is in the same plane as the doors left and right, or at least pretty darn close.

Denarius - I agree it doesn't look smashing, but that is something else. The reason yours doesn't look like all the pix you've seen is because of the DESIGN of the cabinets!

You have framed cabinets AND only partial overlay doors, and though I can't tell from the picture clearly I suspect that those doors are lipped, meaning part of the door actually goes inside of the frame when closed.

No appliance from any brand is going have a fully integrated or totally hidden look with this TYPE of cabinetry. There are things that can be done to make it look better like a custom panel that is made but a non standard design to fool the eye into the frame and partial overlay door , but it is really an uphill battle.
I think the best solution for you (looks wise) at this point is probably ask to have the DW recessed further back in the opening so that the SSteel panel is flush with the adjacent faceframe. It will prob.. require adding some wood material of a specific thickness behind the faceframe to give the DW something to be fastened too.

While this will prob. look better , it is not a typical install so don't blame the builder / installer for this. You need to go find the designer / specifier. The problem is they should have told you your selection (Miele) would not give you the look you were seeking with the cabinetry selected.

    Bookmark   May 19, 2013 at 11:18AM
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Sorry, but I think the above post is pure bunk. I don't think it has anything, what-so-ever, to do with the door style of the cabinetry.

I have, what appears to be, that exact same Miele model (two of 'em, actually) and mine are both recessed much farther back in my cabinets. You can not see the side of the door AT ALL. The entirety of the unit's side is behind the cabinetry and the front of the dishwasher is flush with the opening for it.

I would say the dishwasher is clearly poorly installed.

This post was edited by applnut on Sun, May 19, 13 at 12:50

    Bookmark   May 19, 2013 at 12:06PM
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I don't see anything wrong with the cabinets. If they were shy on the depth the other appliances wouldn't fit well. What about those? To me this looks like improper install. And with those sides showing it also could be louder than it should be.

I had same style Miele DW in our apartment in old poorly crafted 25 y.o. cabinets that were shy of 24" deep. We retrofitted the Miele when we removed the '80s GE Potscrubber and it installed flush. No part of the side panel showed, as can be seen from the photo. If flush can be done in those cabinets in can be done in any cabinets. They were not professionally made at all.

This post was edited by rococogurl on Sun, May 19, 13 at 15:14

    Bookmark   May 19, 2013 at 1:59PM
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Actually I do have issues with the other appliances. I also purchased the all fridge all freezer icon pros and they look wrong to me as well. here is a pic...what do you think?

    Bookmark   May 19, 2013 at 5:16PM
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Here is a closeup...not sure why they stick out of the cabinets so far?

    Bookmark   May 19, 2013 at 5:17PM
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I would measure the depth of the base cabinet near the Dw to be sure it is not short. That would need to be full depth for the DW to fit properly.

Look at the specification sheet for your refrigerator on the manufacturer's website. That door may need clearance to open -- each brand is different. So that fridge door may need to be proud of the cabinet. To me, it looks ok but I haven't installed that brand or seen the spec sheet so I cannot say for sure. Not all fridges have doors that fit totally flush.

Deegaux, xedos, gary or others may know for sure. Or, someone over in kitchens may have the same fridge -- you could ask them to look at the photo if no one here knows.

But the DW is not right.

To rotate photos, go to the edit function first and rotate 90 degrees. Then upload. Difficult to see what's what sideways.

    Bookmark   May 19, 2013 at 5:55PM
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I'd have the installers push the dishwasher in until the two lines I added overlap.

    Bookmark   May 19, 2013 at 7:15PM
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Applenut - maybe you should get some experience under your belt before you start dismissing my assessments as bunk.

Buying a pair of dishwashers doesn't make you an expert on them or cabinets, sorry . I have 3 mieles and have been in the kitchen business 20+ years so I DO KNOW it has everything to do with that cabinetry !

If you look at rocco's picture you'll see that FULL OVERLAY doors make all the difference ! These dishwashers , and others that are meant to be fully integrated are designed to be installed with their panels FLUSH with the adjacent ones , PERIOD ! If the design of the cabinetry doesn't have a 3/4" thick door 1//16" - 3/16" away (gap) from the dishwasher door front - it will look bad.

Looks to me that's how Denarius' unit is installed - properly with the DW's stainless panel flush with the cabinets doors next to it.

Does it look like crap ? Absolutely. But this is not the fault of the installer or Miele. It stems from the fact that you can see in past the doors and frame and see the side of the dishwasher. Could the installers have made it look better during the first trip ? Absolutely - if they'd have gotten direction from the designer that was what you wanted. They are not mind readers, nor do they consider what will "look best" as almost all of them do not own the products they are installing for you. They also see them used in manners not often detailed in the design guides or training sessions, they follow directions - usually.

Rocco's would look the same way if you cut off 2" of width of her door and removed 1/4" + of the carcass of her cabinet. That would yield the same geometry of Denarius' faceframed partial overlay cabinet design, and her Miele DW would also look like crap.

Folks - I'm not trying to tell you this is good looking or what Denarius should accept.

What I am telling you is - this is not the installers' fault. This falls into the designer's , project manager's or builder's lap.

Primer for fully integrated DWs:

Cabinets need to have full overlay doors and drawer fronts.

Those fronts must be 3/4" thick .

The 3/4" must be fully in front of the faceframe and not lipped into it.

There are caveats to this such, as with inset cabinets, but that is a discussion for PhD candidates.

    Bookmark   May 19, 2013 at 8:19PM
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OK, so say it's the cabinets. Point well taken xedos. The doors do "float" on the frame.

I'd still be upset about the install if they had left me with that DW and the OP is right -- it's not acceptable.

So first: is that as far back as it can go? Are the cabinets short? that looks like it needs to be recessed 3/4" to hide the side panels at least.

Then, what's the workaround? Molding strips of some kind?

    Bookmark   May 20, 2013 at 8:45AM
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I'm not an expert, just a consumer. But I have built three homes and the number of times I've had more information and knowledge about particular products or techniques than the "experts," simply because it was my home, my money and I'd done my research, is fairly staggering. My purely anecdotal experience is that even quite good tradespeople are used to doing things only one way and working with a fairly small subset of products they are familiar with, and have little or no interest in learning/doing anything differently than what has worked for them in the past. (If you can find one that's open to learning new things, hold on to them!) And finding someone who will admit they don't know something is also fairly rare. I think the standard contractor or salesperson answer is: "Sure, no problem," punting what might actually be a really big problem down the line.

More often than not, that general experience does not usually include the very highest-end products, like this top-of-the-line Miele dishwasher, unless you're working with someone that regularly builds multi-million dollar estates. (Which, it's totally possible YOU are, but I know I've never had the privilege, because I don't have millions of dollars.)

I once lived with a badly installed Bosch dishwasher for almost five years because I believed a bunch of mumbo-jumbo my contractor tried to sell me on how my "cabinets were custom" and "because of your granite counter tops," etc. It all sound plausible and, like he pointed out, repeatedly, he was the expert who had such-and-such many years of experience, so how dare I question it? Well, four-something years later, I had to have the dishwasher repaired and the Bosch tech that came out took one look and said: Who installed this? He fixed the broken part and (finally) installed it properly ... All in about 45 minutes. It no longer fit poorly, or wobbled, or any of the other things I'd just "lived with," because my builder told me that's how it had to be and it was my fault for ordering this "European" dishwasher with American cabinets. (And, yes, this was about 20 years ago when Bosch dishwashers were far more rare.)

The side of the Miele dishwashers are not supposed to show and the door should be flush with the opening. I, obviously, could be wrong, but I fail to see how that has ANYTHING to do with the door fronts on adjoining cabinetry in that a dishwasher cut-out is just that: a hole. So, no matter what the surrounding cabinetry style, the dishwasher should fit and look the same in your hole as it does in mine, or any of the other members who chimed in. At least that's what makes sense to me.

If you have to, get someone from Miele out, even if you have to pay for it yourself, and get it installed correctly. I know how tight $$$ can be at the end of a house build (I know all too well!) but I truly think it could be the difference between you loving or hating your dishwasher. That's my non-expert advice. Take it for what it's worth (i.e. potentially nothing).

My home-building experience, both good and bad, has boiled down to this: If you your gut tells you something isn't right and the person whose responsibility it is to fix it is spending a lot of effort trying to talk you into why you're wrong, they're quite likely just blowing smoke to avoid doing more work or they really don't know how to make it right and don't want to admit that either.

This post was edited by applnut on Mon, May 20, 13 at 10:28

    Bookmark   May 20, 2013 at 9:25AM
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"The side of the Miele dishwashers are not supposed to show"
* Correct !


"the door should be flush with the opening"
* This is not correct, strictly speaking.

The DW door face is to be flush with the adjacent door and drawer fronts - UNLESS OTHERWISE STIPULATED BY THE DESIGNER.

Both of these are IMPOSSIBLE with framed + partial overlay cabinetry - whether you can see it or choose to believe it.

This stipulation would be counter to the manuf.'s installation instructions / drawings and specifications. This stipulation would generally be preferred buy many people that have partial overlay cabinets (like Denarius) - but Miele and other European DW manufacturers do not support this type of install with engineering. It's not done that way in Europe or any other market as they don't have framed partial overlay cabinets. It's certainly possible to do - but the design is incumbent on the end user an their advisers. Flush with Denarius opening will be BEHIND the cabinet doors and drawer fronts.

It would be similar to raising the DW off of the floor for ADA access and still maintaining the paneled look. The manuf. do not support that type of install and you'll have a large gap below the dishwasher panel and the drawer or door below it if you don't know what you're doing. This is where the kitchen designer, architect, cabinet engineer, ect.. would also step in to guide the process.

"but I fail to see how that has ANYTHING to do with the door fronts "

Your failure to see , doesn't make it untrue. And , I'm not your bozo contractor looking to get out of work or keep from bruising my ego, or wallet or trying to sell you an add on.

If you'll really read what I've said - Whirlpool Trainee and I both told you and Denarius that his DW would LOOK (better ) if it were recessed back into the opening . I even told you guys the pits falls that will be encountered when the installer goes to do that work and the parts he'll likely need from the cabinet co. WpT even did up a drawing for all.

Looking (better) will still not look great, like roccogurl's , all because when Denarius' miele is pushed back into the opening the stainless DW front will now be sitting BEHIND his door and drawer fronts ! It will look 'pushed in". This may look preferable to seeing the side of the DW, and it might not to some people. You round up 5 that like it that way and I'll find five that think that way looks like rot. This is all due to the framed cabinet + partial overlay doors. Notice a trend ?

At any rate , even if pushed back into the opening to make the DW door flush with the face frame is the preferred look to Denarius - it is not the manuf. specified / detailed way to do it and therefore is not the installers' fault at the original install ! When it is done it will probably look better - but it won't look like roccogurl's ! Why, because Denarius has framed + partial overlay cabinetry.

I'm sorry you've had less than stellar contractors in the past applnut, but don't project your biases and predispositions onto my assessments.

I think you are totally misreading me - I'm not telling Denarius this his install is good looking, or that he he should like it or accept it, or that he shouldn't request a change. What I am saying is that it is installed per manuf. specifications, properly - and there is a HUGE difference. Email me off thread if you need clarification.

    Bookmark   May 20, 2013 at 8:09PM
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Where's it plugged in? Maybe there's an outlet behind that kept them from pushing it back. Or a support board for the countertop, or a old baseboard that needs to be notched. Maybe the water supply is coming in too far forward or too far up. What I'm getting at is, it could have been something other than that's how the installer thought it should look. Mine looks funny, sort of like yours, because my previous-owner installed cabinets aren't level at the front, and the dishwasher has to be.

See if you can get on the phone with the person who installed it - might be he'll remember why he did it that way.

I just grabbed my Maytag's installation guide and step 8 is "Align front of dishwasher door panel with front of cabinet door." They show a picture of a long straightedge - like a yardstick - being used to line up the dishwasher door with the adjacent cabinet doors.

If you have a new, level floor, it would probably be easy to slide back a little bit, assuming there's room. There's probably a bracket on each side screwed into the cabinet that'd you'd have to disconnect, or into the top if that was possible. I would probably have the builder come do it, though, just to make sure the water lines don't get kinked and everything stays level and plumb.

    Bookmark   May 20, 2013 at 10:39PM
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I think your issue is the cabinet isn't built for a European dishwasher. In order to attach it to the cabinets that you do have, they had to pull it out some so they could screw it into the frame. If this is correct you will also notice the opening is a little large for the Miele. I can't tell from the photos. They are not as wide as American brands. Stock cabinets don't work with Miele dishwashers.

A good carpenter can fix it.

    Bookmark   May 21, 2013 at 8:54AM
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Perhaps some trim pieces attached to the cabinet frames between cabinet doors and dishwasher door would hide the DW door sides, assuming that the DW door face and cabinet door faces are aligned.

Also, if this is a 24-inch wide space, a side trim piece is needed to fit the Miele into the space correctly. I don't recall the dimension but it is about 3/8 inch (or half this each side). Do this before establishing the hiding trim mentioned above. This is also important for minimizing noise. Properly sealed around the edges and with the rubber skirt piece at the floor, operation can be difficult to detect under normal ambient noise conditions without looking at the operating light.

I agree with xedos that the nature of exposed frame cabinets will force exposure of the door sides if the DW door face is to be flush with the cabinet door faces. The extreme example of this would be if an exposed frame type door panel were used on a to-be paneled DW. Its edge setback to look like the other doors would expose the underlying door frame (which isn't pretty). The panel would have to be built frameless style.

Miele dishwashers, while shorter front to back than US style, tend to have stuff behind them that can be a problem, if only a rear support for the countertop. I spaced my cabinets and counter out to deal with this. Counter-top depth over my Optima is 28.5 inches. This also leaves enough depth to accommodate the slightly deeper US dishwashers if wanted by some future house owner without having to excise some of the sheetrock.

My SubZero refrigerator and nearby Wolf ovens required extra space also to assure flush fit. I used a cabinet frame depth of 25 inches to the units mounting frames. Among other advantages, it provided room for a back on the oven cabinet assembly to add strength.

Adding depth tolerance will also avoid problems with un-square houses. It is the architectural counterpart of an aphorism a Verizon FiOS tech once told me: "Slack is your friend."


    Bookmark   May 21, 2013 at 10:17AM
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xedos, the dishwasher front doesn't look like it is flush with cabinets in the photos, it looks like it sticks out even more. Maybe the owner can confirm.

In any case, it should be installed where it looks the best and still functions, which is going to vary with the cabinet construction and door style.

Edit to add:

I don't see any reference to this at all in the Miele installation sheet; maybe you are remembering older ones where they actually wrote text rather than just drawing pictures.

This post was edited by attofarad on Tue, May 21, 13 at 14:46

    Bookmark   May 21, 2013 at 2:30PM
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What is the width of the cabinet opening? I'm wondering whether it might be 24" instead of 23-5/8", which might be part of the appearance problem.

    Bookmark   May 21, 2013 at 2:54PM
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It doesn't look right because the frames of your cabinets are both visible and are used to position the counter edge return. If you mounted a door on te integrated door frame accessory to match your cabinets it would include a matching wood frame piece. And the washer body would be pushed in farther than it is.
If this was a section of your cabnetry without a door but with a wood panel, the wood panel would be flush with and a continuation of the wooden framing.
The DW door should be flush with the framing not the door.

    Bookmark   May 21, 2013 at 5:08PM
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I would have installed it a 1/2 to 1 inch farther back to make the look more integrated.

The Miele is a shallow depth tub so there should be plenty of room to push it farther back.

    Bookmark   May 21, 2013 at 8:31PM
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Side note: can you let me know how you like your all fridge all freezer set? I'm debating on getting electrolux or the fridgidare set...but I like the electrolux config better

    Bookmark   May 21, 2013 at 9:01PM
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