Tried everything on Bosch and it didn't work

need-help2April 7, 2013

For the last 1.5 years, I've been struggling with my brand-new Bosch SHE55M1UC, bought from Sears along with a 5-year service plan. It doesn't clean well, doesn't drain or rinse well. Leaving dishes with grits or many with blue-ish streaks. I've bought water test kit (water is normal), fiddled with the rinse aid dials, checked water temperature or even ran the tap water until very hot before starting the dishwasher, cleaned the filters, asked Sears technician to check the spray arms, switched detergents, power or tablets, bought dishwasher cleaner to run empty cycles. checked water pressure from my tap in kitchen, and it seems fine. (I live in a condo with common water piping). This weekend I used small amount of Cascade power to wash my dishes, filled in just to the first line of the dispenser. I didn't load up with a lot of dishes either. I used the normal cycle, then one more wash with a cancel so that I could rinse and drain, then a quick cycle. The result was that I had to hand-wash and rinse about 1/2 of the dishes! I then ran another 3 cycles with cancel. To my astonishment, the dishwasher was still full of SOAP! Please see the attached photo after 6 cycles!
What should I do?

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weissman

Do you have a high loop in the drain hose? It seems like your problems may be do to that. Without a high loop or air gap, dirty water can flow back into the dishwasher. If you're not sure, post a picture of the area under your sink. One of the repairmen should have caught this, if indeed this is the problem.

    Bookmark   April 7, 2013 at 3:37PM
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need-help2

Thanks Weissman. I don't know what a high loop is. But the photo of the area under my sink.

    Bookmark   April 7, 2013 at 4:48PM
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weissman

That's a start - need another picture that shows higher up. Is the dishwasher to the left? It looks like the white hose at the bottom is the drain hose from the DW. Need to see if it has a loop in the upper right corner and where it goes from there.

    Bookmark   April 7, 2013 at 4:56PM
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need-help2

Yes the dishwasher is to the left of the sink. See the photo of the upper right. The black tube goes the to garbage disposal. The white one comes out from the dishwasher. I noticed that the black tube has a higher position at the joint. Does this impede the dirty water from going to the garbage disposal?

    Bookmark   April 7, 2013 at 5:09PM
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weissman

Your setup is a little confusing. In my case, the white hose from the DW goes up like yours but then loops back down and connects directly into the disposal. The loop is well above where the hose enters the disposal and prevents backflow. I'm not sure why you have a separate black hose. Also, where does the white hose go above where the black hose branches off, That branch may be an attempt to simulate a high loop but it may also allow dirty water to flow back down the drain hose. Who installed the DW and disposal for you? You might want to post this whole thread on the plumbing forum. There are licensed plumbers there who may be able to tell you more about that connection.

    Bookmark   April 7, 2013 at 5:40PM
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need-help2

It was a branched plastic PLC pipe, The top goes to the air gap, I guess, its smaller downward branch goes to the white drain from the dishwasher and the other branch, which is bigger, goes to the black pipe garbage disposal. I will try to post this to the plumber forum to get some advice.

    Bookmark   April 7, 2013 at 6:02PM
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need-help2

ps. It's installed by Sears when I bought it. I am sure the install guy is a local contractor by Sears.

    Bookmark   April 7, 2013 at 6:11PM
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Cavimum

Our Bosch DW does not play well with Cascade detergent. I ran across a not-too-old box during our kitchen remodel, so I used it once the new DW was in. There was a lot of sudsing, even leftover suds on the floor of the tub when the cycle was complete. I called Bosch and they only recommend Finish. No more sudsing. I opend the door and checked.

If everything else is installed properly, I've read that 1/4 cup of any vegetable/olive oil in a cup on the top rack and run a cycle with no detergent, should give the suds something to chew on and clean it all out.

    Bookmark   April 7, 2013 at 8:36PM
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weissman

So, you do have an air gap on your counter. I honestly don't know how they're hooked up or how they work but it seems to me like it may not be working properly and causing backup. That would not only explain the dirty dishes but could explain the sudsing if regular dishwashing liquid from your sink is backing up into the dishwasher. On the other hand, it may well just be your detergent. Ever since they removed phosphates people have had problems - particularly with Cascade powder. I use Finish Quantum tabs and they work great.

    Bookmark   April 7, 2013 at 9:47PM
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need-help2

Yes I called Bosch previously and they recommended me to use Finish tablet. So I did. But it still doesn't clean dishes and doesn't rinse well, leaving blue-ish streak. I posted the same inquiry in the plumber forum. Somebody said that the "The line running up to the soap dispenser may be blocked, kinked or damaged". I have no idea there is a line running up to the soap dispenser"? Did he mean the draining line?

    Bookmark   April 7, 2013 at 9:50PM
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need-help2

Thanks Weissman. What you said does make sense. I will have to call Sears again to check the hookup. I will try the Finish Quantum again and see what happens. But since after 6 washes and there are still so much suds, I don't know if the tabs will make much difference. I will try again with the Finish tabs anyways - I am out of options beyond this...

    Bookmark   April 7, 2013 at 9:58PM
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weissman

Before you try the Quantum, clear out all the suds, run short rinses over and over until the suds are gone. I think putting vinegar right on the suds will help.

I don't know what the person means by the line to the soap dispenser.

    Bookmark   April 7, 2013 at 10:20PM
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dadoes

Excess rinse aid causes sudsing.

    Bookmark   April 7, 2013 at 10:28PM
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need-help2

Thanks for looking into this. But my rinse aid has been on 1, as long as it can be.

    Bookmark   April 7, 2013 at 10:38PM
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steve340

Yes, it is hooked up correctly. Start your dishwasher and as soon as you hear the water shutoff and the unit start to wash, push the cancel drain buttons and drain out the water. When it shuts off, start ot over again. You should be able to fill and drain it faster that way and rinse out all the soap.

    Bookmark   April 8, 2013 at 12:11AM
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xedos

Hers' what I'd do:

disconnect the white hose from the air gap and connect it to the point that the black hose drains into _ the disposal fitting .

Run a couple of loads and report back.

    Bookmark   April 8, 2013 at 2:05PM
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sparky823

Read where someone else was having problems similar to this with their Bosch. They tried Method Tabs and it fixed the problem. Would be worth trying.

    Bookmark   April 8, 2013 at 2:26PM
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xedos

when trying to isolate a problem , it's best not to change more than one variable at a time.

You've tried adjusting detergents with little luck. Use the orig. one or the one you think works best now and ditch the air gap.

That will give us something new to look at against the old baseline.

    Bookmark   April 8, 2013 at 5:10PM
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need-help2

Hi Sparky823 and Xedos,

Thanks for the advices.

I ran 12 consecutive rinse2 without soap yesterday and it was still full of soap. I almost want to cry. I've made yet another appointment with Sears and will get the technician to look at thnigs at more detail, potentially re-route and by-pass the air gap. It's not something I could do myself as the pipes are clamped in to a branched PVC pipe. The technician will come this Thursday. I will got to Target to see if there is Method tab I could try while I am waiting for Thursday, just for the heck of it.

See photo - that after 12 consecutive rinses without adding any detergent!

I also thought about getting a Bosch factory service person out. But they charge $99 for the first 18 minutes and $12 for each additional 6 minutes. Basically $185 for the first hour and $120 for 2nd hour. So I thought I will try the Sears guy one more time, based on the advices on the forum.

    Bookmark   April 8, 2013 at 7:09PM
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weissman

Did you try putting vinegar on the suds? That should really help. Using a different detergent won't get rid of the suds already there. You need to take care of that first. And steve340's advice above is correct. Don't run full cycles - start it up and after it fills with water, stop the cycle and let it drain - your manual should tell you specifically how to do this. The suds will eventually go away.

    Bookmark   April 8, 2013 at 7:19PM
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weissman

One more thing - if you have them disconnect the airgap, make sure they put a high loop in the drain hose before they connect it to the disposal. Good luck.

    Bookmark   April 8, 2013 at 7:31PM
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need-help2

Thanks Weissman. Will buy vinegar and try tonight!

    Bookmark   April 8, 2013 at 7:38PM
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stacieann63

Oh gosh, I hope the suds are gone! Before the DW started to fill up with soap, when you ran a load of dishes you complained of grit on the dishes. Did you happen to notice, (and i know it sounds disgusting!) did the dishes smell like wet dog? I had an issue with a previous LG DW, the dirty water was backing up and leaving grit and that awful wet dog smell. The loop appeared to be high enough, but when I described to the plumber my problem he knew right away the issue was the dirty water drainage. Not sure how he remedied the problem and I since replaced it with a cheap KA DW that I love! I know how frustrating it is to have to rewash everything. I had given up and just washed by hand for a year unti l we replaced it. I just didn't trust the thing to clean and was afraid we would get sick. Good luck, it shouldn't be rocket science to run the DW, load, add soap, hit start. Yikes. Hope he came out today to fix or replace!

    Bookmark   April 8, 2013 at 7:47PM
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dadoes

Is there a possibility that someone mistakenly filled regular hand dishwashing liquid detergent into the rinse aid dispenser?

12 rinses with no further dishwasher detergent added, doesn't seem reasonable that suds could remain ... unless something other than dishwasher detergent is causing it.

    Bookmark   April 8, 2013 at 7:59PM
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dadoes

If you leave the machine paused with the "sudsy" water in it, how long does it take for the suds to dissipate off the water?

    Bookmark   April 8, 2013 at 8:30PM
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gr8daygw

I feel so bad for you. My experience with farmed out service reps has been "waste of time". I don't know why they even bother to send them out. I have never had one of them fix anything. One actually told me my hearing was too good when I said that my brand new dryer was making a rattling sound and driving me nuts. In the end my husband took the back off and found the problem to be a missing washer on a screw that made some metal plate vibrate. Same with the noisy double ovens, two service calls with guy telling me that's just the way they sound. Eventually my husband dismantles the thing and fixes the problem, something loose again. Next the refrigerator is brand new and making a terrible noise. Two service calls, have my brand new refrigerator torn apart lying in pieces on the kithen floor, they put it back together and say it's impossible to get to the problem and tell me to make them take it back and give you a new one. Eventually I did get a new one but not until my CC company got involved and canceled their payment to them, then finally I got another one but had to pay an extra $300 because SS was all they had in stock and mine was a black one. Now I have one SS appliance in my kitchen and the rest are black, ok whatever.. But I was so glad to have that other one gone with the noise! I would have just about done anything at that point as I was so scared I was stuck with it forever.

So, anyway, I am so sorry you are having this problem and I hope they will help you. I just wish they would exchange it for you. It sounds like you have a store warranty? If so they should make that good for you. Another thing I noticed about these farmed out service people is that they tell you one thing and then write up that it all checked out fine on the service report so they won't be seen as responsible for the store having to provide a new one. One of the reps actually told me they would not be happy with him writing up that there really is a problem with the appliance and not just that it checks out "fine".

    Bookmark   April 8, 2013 at 9:05PM
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need-help2

I do suspect water following back because the dishes doesn't smell fresh after the wash, though not as bad as a wet dog. I am now suspecting installation issue. I have this dishwasher for 1.5 years now and has been calling Bosch and then Sears. They made me try everything so it took time to go through. Sears came out twice. The Sears guy told me that since the dishwasher drains, it's installed correctly. I guess that's all they know! I guess these serviceman are contractors and are pretty useless. I am just shocked now that I might have been eating residual soap for the last long while with some of the dishes and utensils I didn't rinse! I also noticed that the autowash time is increasing, it used to be 124 minutes and now it's 140 thought I never fully loaded it with dirty dishes. I am the only one who operates the dish washer.

    Bookmark   April 8, 2013 at 10:34PM
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xedos

Dadoes mentioned something that ran through my mind this morn, soap in the rinse aid dispenser. This will cause lots of problems.

When you have an air gap it is IMPOSSiBLE for dirty water to flow back into the DW. That's the whole reason the air gap is installed ! The air gap could get clogged from debris and cause slow draining from the DW , but even then the physics of the gap will prevent dirty water from returning.

First do as weissman suggests and add vinegar and clear the tub a few time by filling, canceling and draining. See your instruction manual on the buttons to press to accomplish this.

DO NOT run full cycles, even rinse. Again , DO NOT run full cycles. Fill , drain, repeat till it's clear of suds.

Let's see if we can get rid of the suds which look a bit fluffy for DW detergent, which is why I'm leaning towards soap in the rinse aid dispenser.

The increasing auto wash times would be normal too with over sudsing. The sensors don't read "dirt" they look at unclear water. More bubbles equals less clear water and the time is then increased.

BTW , what brand of rinse aid are you using? Did you mix brands on the last fill up ?

    Bookmark   April 9, 2013 at 9:48AM
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whirlpool_trainee

Do you have to refill the rinse aid dispenser often? It could be leaking rinse aid into the water thus creating all these suds.

Look at the clear (at least it looks clear from your pictures) drain hose under the sink when the dishwasher drains. Do you see water going back down into the dishwasher? When you remove the filter after a drain cycle, how much water is there under the filter? Maybe take a picture.

We even had a case here before that hot, soft water, heavily agitated during the cleaning cycle of a front loading washer, caused tons of suds all by itself.

Alex

    Bookmark   April 9, 2013 at 9:53AM
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need-help2

LIGHT BULB! Yes, I do have to refill the rinse aid frequently. It feels that I had to refill every 4-5 cycles, or maybe less than that! This is not normal, is it? My rinse aid dial is at 1, the lowest setting.

I will try to look at the white tube (unfortunately not a clear tube) and see if the water backflows....I'd tried that once, it's hard to tell.

I will be running the vinegar cycles this morning.

    Bookmark   April 9, 2013 at 1:04PM
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whirlpool_trainee

If set to one, the rinse aid should last for many, many washes. 1 refers to one milliliter dispensed per cycle - the dispenser holds 120 ml.

That's a little more water than normal, by the way.

My Bosch: the water line barely touches that gray thing.

    Bookmark   April 9, 2013 at 3:15PM
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whirlpool_trainee

Also, I'd have the drain hose go straight all the way up as soon as it exits that little hole it comes out of. High loop. Then right into the disposal.

Alex

    Bookmark   April 9, 2013 at 3:22PM
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need-help2

Thanks Alex. So it sounds that there are two issues: The drainage pipe hook-up should go straight into the garbage disposal with a high loop, and that there is a leak at the rinse aid dispenser. I am pretty sure there is a leak of the rinse aid now because I have to refill often, lots of suds and that my dishes have blue streaks of the color of the rinse aide. I currently use Cascade power, so there will be no blue color from the soap. Do you know what is required to fix the dispenser? Replacement of the dispenser?

I didn't know that rinse aid will produce lots of suds. I have been using vinegar to run 4 cancelled cycles now and the suds are going away, not completely but a lot better.

    Bookmark   April 9, 2013 at 3:53PM
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xedos

"had to refill (RINSEAID) every 4-5 cycles"

This is a bad sign, and something I didn't even want to consider.

W.T. - you guys don't have air gaps in the U.K. and Europe. Here , they replace the high loop and anti- siphon devices like on miele's machines. It's nearly impossible for them to fail and if they do you'll see water gushing out on top of your counter top as that's where all the business happens. As you might imagine - they are eyesores.

This is what help2 has, and it may be clogged with debris that makes it drain slow, it still won't allow dirty water back into the machine. Her's looks to be installed properly also.

Help2 - time for you to get you battle fatigues on - you'll need to go to war with Sears to get a competent tech out to remove the door skin and see why the rinse aid is leaking. Bad reservoir, loose or cracked hose, or perhaps it was even mis-routed at the factory ? W.T. - any other ideas ?

You'll need to convince them , and I think the heavy use of rinse aid is a dead giveaway - but never underestimate Sears or their service provider. If you paid with a credit card you may want to get them involved to see if they will help leverage a solution. If it's a premium level card your warranty is extended from the manuf.

    Bookmark   April 9, 2013 at 3:55PM
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whirlpool_trainee

Yeah, we don't have air gaps as they're built into the dishwasher itself. I agree that the set up in the pictures looks okay, but I still prefer the shortest possible drain line. if the DW stops draining, all the water in the hose seems to be flowing back into the unit, thus the elevated water level under the filter plate.

The rinse aid / detergent dispenser is replaced as a whole. The only thing to check would be whether, after refilling the RA dispenser, there#s a trace of rinse aid seeping down the door as it's closed. It could be that only the round lid and/or seal needs replacing. Otherwise, I think the entire dispenser assembly has to the replaced.

BTW: need_help2, does your instruction manual tell you about the over-use of rinse aid? If it doesn't then: blue streaks are a clear sign of too much rinse aid in the water.

Alex

    Bookmark   April 9, 2013 at 9:04PM
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xedos

Those are good tips. I'm thinking the problem is buried inside the door at the rate she's going through rinse aid though.

Help2 - the high loop Alex mentions is a good idea , but lacking it is not causing your problem. Your air gap is taking away the need of the high loop. Adding the high loop with your air gap is more better , but isn't strictly necessary.

Take away the air gap and the high loop then becomes necessary.

How about a pic of the inside of the door and detergent / RA cups? Don't suppose you have any water in the bottom of the machine case ? You'd have to remove the toekick, and several metal plates to check and you'll need a Torx screwdriver T15 or T20 - I've forgotten which at the moment.

    Bookmark   April 9, 2013 at 11:06PM
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need-help2

Alex and Xedos, and everyone on the forum,
Thank you so much for the discussion and this really helped my troubleshooting. At least I know what to say to the Sears technician when he comes Thursday (2 days from now) and not let him be evasive. Plus troubleshooting takes time!

I took a picture inside the rinse aid door and you can see the blue liquid on top of the dial. I don't know how the rinse aid could leak because there is a rubber ring on the lid (the somewhat blue-ish ring).

I don't have water on the floor. Last time the technician came and checked it, It was dry underneath my dishwasher.

    Bookmark   April 10, 2013 at 1:38AM
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need-help2

Alex, my instruction manual on rinse agent was super simple, basically says turn towards 1 to "decrease streaks on glasses", and turn towards 6 to "decrease spots on glasses". I can't even tell the difference between spots and streaks. But that's all it said.
I've read the manual from front to back during the last year, all total of 25 pages. With pictures and graphics, it's not a detailed manual at all.

    Bookmark   April 10, 2013 at 1:42AM
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nerdyshopper

I once had a backup problem when a bone got stuck in the air gap. Service man took it apart and showed me. It wasn't really a sewer backup but the water couldn't pass through quickly enough and so soapy water in the drain line went back into the machine from the air gap. It looks like you have found the problem with the rinse aid. I quit using it because mine quit dispensing. Finish tabs work just as well for me.

    Bookmark   April 10, 2013 at 9:01AM
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whirlpool_trainee

Aha, yet another dispenser version. Looks like a hybrid version of the old and new system. Anyway, here's how the thing is changed - at least it should be very similar on your machine.

Here is a link that might be useful: How to replace the dishwasher detergent dispenser on a Bosch dishwasher

    Bookmark   April 10, 2013 at 9:14AM
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barbarany

This is exactly what was happening with my 1 year old DW also. We also finally narrowed it down to the rinse aid. I had always used Jet-Dry. Never had a problem. I bought a new bottle at BJs and filled the dispenser. OMG - the suds!! couldn't get rid of them either. DH finally took the door off and emptied the dispenser. I ran a load.....no problem. I ran another load.....no problem. Stupidly decided to add rinse aid back to dispenser set on "1" where it always was. OMG - the suds !! Do you see a pattern here? I use the Finish tabs also. Once again, DH took to door apart and emptied the rinse aid. Ran a load... no problem....etc. LOL Threw the rinse aid bottle in the trash. I have not had that issue since. dishes are spotless and my DW is a lowly Maytag. Working like a charm for 4 months now and no spots, streaks, etc. Sounds just like your problem

    Bookmark   April 10, 2013 at 11:22AM
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jakvis

Before trying to replace any parts you might try this...
If you have a turkey baster try flushing out the rinse aid resevior with 1 to 2 quarts of warm water. to do this you will see a hole at the top of the dispenser (opposite of the numbers) use the turkey baster to squirt water through the rectangle hole and the rinse aid will flush out of the same hole. When it runs clear you've pretty much gotten rid of the rinse aid.
Don't worry about the water remaining in the dispenser as it will just get dispensed as rinse aid would.

    Bookmark   April 10, 2013 at 2:49PM
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xedos

Help2 - what kind of RA are you using ?

    Bookmark   April 10, 2013 at 4:09PM
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need-help2

I use Finish Jet Dry as rinse aid.

    Bookmark   April 10, 2013 at 7:11PM
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xedos

Ok, doesn't appear your choice of RA is the culprit.

    Bookmark   April 11, 2013 at 2:08PM
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need-help2

The Sears technician came and has ordered a new dispenser assembly for me and will replace it in 2 weeks. Cross my fingers. Good thing I have the Sears service plan so parts and labor are covered. I talked to him about the air gap and he said it was the best thing I could have. So I guess I will leave it for now and try the dispenser first. It might be good to troubleshoot one thing at a time.

    Bookmark   April 11, 2013 at 5:49PM
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xedos

^^^ I disagree with your tech about the air gap.

The best thing would be to have a DW with an anti return valve built into the DW itself so that homely, space wasting air gap isn't needed on the countertop.

It does it's job though.

    Bookmark   April 12, 2013 at 9:51PM
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weedmeister

Leave the air gap alone. It is not your problem.

You could remove its cover (it either pulls off or unscrews), unscrew the cap and see if anything is in there, but with this machine's filter I would doubt it.

Stop using rinse aid until you get the dispenser fixed.

Blue streaks vs (white) spots. The blue streaks are from too much rinse aid. That's why they want you to turn it down. The white spots are from hard water. That's why you turn it up.

    Bookmark   April 17, 2013 at 11:02PM
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need-help2

To everyone in the forum who had helped me troubleshoot my distressing dishwasher problem, I want to express my gratitude in helping me through this! During this process, you helped me in identifying that my rinse aid dispenser was leaking and needed to be replaced. I have a 5-year service plan with Sears so they replaced it on Apr.25 without additional costs to me. The repairman took out the dispenser and showed to me where it was leaking. After 2+ weeks of using the new dispenser, I am comfortable to declare that the problem has been fixed and there is no more excessive suds. There were still blue streaks on a couple of my dishes but I now believe that they are etched in by previous problem and can't be washed away even by hand.
Anyway, I now can confidently open up my dish washer and know that I won't get any more distressing surprises. As for the water in the bottom, I believe it's because the tube to the air gap was long all the way to the other side of the sink. Not much I could do to alter that connection unless I notice further issue.
Once again, THANK YOU ALL!!!! This forum has been a savior for me!

    Bookmark   May 9, 2013 at 3:18PM
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nerdyshopper

I just have to suggest that you can reduce the distance water flows by moving the air gap closer to the dishwasher and making the distance from it to the sink longer. Might have a problem if you can't mount it on a counter.

    Bookmark   May 9, 2013 at 8:59PM
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need-help2

Thanks for the feedback, nerdyshopper. The dish washer is on the left of my sink and the air gap is built-in on the double-sink surface on the right of the sink, so I am stuck. I can't move the air gap. Having said that, the dishes seems to be clean fine so far. I re-run an empty cycle about taking out all the clean dishes and there was only very small about of bubbles. I guess that's acceptable. I will run empty cycles with small amount of vinegar from time to time.
Thank you again!

    Bookmark   May 13, 2013 at 11:37PM
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