Wolf Double Ovens: L or E Series? Or American Range?

applnutApril 22, 2013

We are replacing our current electric double oven and I'm 90% set on Wolf. I'm just not sure what to go with between the L and E series. Am I wrong or is the difference almost wholly cosmetic? I don't really care about the spinning electric control panel (just seems like something else that could break, actually), so is there ANYTHING else I won't be getting by going with the less expensive (by $1k) E series?

Oh and, when I said Wolf is 90%, it's cause I am DROOLING over the American Range french door double electrics, but am stuck on the lack of self-clean, a feature I do use regularly (or, at least, semi-regularly) with great success on our current ovens. I'm also worried about reliability, service, etc. with American Range, since I know SOOO much less about them than Wolf.

I am an avid cook and baker and use both my ovens a LOT, so this isn't a looks-only proposition.

Any and all advice and opinions on use, function and service are very, VERY much appreciated.

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So, I called Wolf to answer my own question and, yes, there are quite a few differences between the L and E series, beyond just the spinning panel, despite my original salesperson's assertions. They have a great document you can request if you want, but these are the highlights ...

- L Series has a "spring and damper" door system that has a sort of automatic full-open, while E Series have a balanced hinge and can be kept open in various positions beyond fully down.

- E series LOWER oven has limited options: only four cooking modes (bake, roast, broil, proof) vs 10 in the upper oven. Also no probe function in lower oven on E series. L series has all features in both ovens.

-E series lower oven does NOT have the dual convection fan.

... Those last two line items made it clear that if I'm getting a Wolf, I'm getting an L series, as I do NOT want a limited ability lower oven.

Would still love to hear more real-world experience with the L series or the American Range electrics!

    Bookmark   April 22, 2013 at 12:19PM
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I've been using my 30" Wolf Ls for about 17 months now. I've been happy with both the ovens' performance and with Wolf CS, disregarding the snotty man who from the answering service who picked up the phone after regular business hours one night.

I did have an issue with the top oven and self-cleaning, but this was probably more a function of the floor model life they lived before I purchased them. I set the oven for cleaning, and when the latch rotated to engage, it became stuck. Wouldn't clean and couldn't open the door. Turns out the door was slightly out of alignment so the self-clean latch couldn't seat properly. Ten minutes with a tech and all is better. (Another big thank you to Dodge who helped me diagnose the issue and get the latch unstuck myself and working for Thanksgiving!)

Recently, there have been reports of the blue porcelain flaking off from the bottom of the ovens. Member Rhome410, who bakes all of her bread products for her family of 10, had her Wolf Es replaced by Wolf only to have the porcelain flake again. Wolf bought back the ovens the second time, and now she is using Gaggenau ovens. I've been troubled by this, but so far have not seen issues with my ovens. I plan another round of oven cleaning soon and a close inspection before my warranty expires in a couple of months.

Oh, and I have only rotated my control panel a couple of times as it serves as my kitchen clock and I use the timers very frequently. :)

    Bookmark   April 22, 2013 at 1:04PM
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Thanks for your reply! Yes, I've seen "Rhome's" name pop up in the many of my searches for information and even went to her blog. Worried about the issues she's had as I'm replacing a GE Monogram that's been repaired more than 30 times and definitely don't want another never-ending service saga.

Gaggeanu, hmm. The last thing I need is another choice, but I do have, and love, their combi-steam. Decisions, decisions.

I'm actually kind of bummed that E series seems so limited (it's hardly a cheapie), since I actually don't really like that (rather silly) rotating panel. Like you, I use my oven timers for everything. I just keep thinking that they're there for people who never turn their ovens on. :)

    Bookmark   April 22, 2013 at 1:22PM
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I loved my Wolfs and miss them. TREMENDOUS bakers. But I don't know how to recommend them fully with the porcelain issues that they seem to deny. Others here have emailed me with splintering porcelain problems in the exact same areas... People who don't bake as much as I do or do the high heat pizza baking that Wolf tried to tell me was too unusual for their ovens. I'd consider their customer service to be top-notch for other issues...and they were certainly prompt and willing when my ovens needed replacing. Wish they'd done more for me to keep me in Wolf ovens.

I don't think there is anything out there that can equal Wolf's dual convection technology, and if you go for Wolf, I'd go for the L, too, if I were you to have it and the temperature probe in both ovens. Or two of the single Es. ;-)

The Gaggs seem decent so far. Maybe not as even as the Wolfs, and because mine were a floor model and not their 'just out' version, I don't have full extension racks, and really miss those I had in the Wolf, too. The self-clean sure did seem to work nicely in both Wolf and Gagg.

Have you considered Electrolux? I'm sorry I don't know anything about American.

    Bookmark   April 22, 2013 at 3:01PM
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Thanks for the response Rhome. Much appreciated! I think for function that Wolf wins hands down, though I did look at the Gaggs, too, but they're even more than the Wolf (yikes!).

American Range does have the double convection fan, but I haven't really heard much about how they cook. They are definitely the best looking ovens, though. LOVE those French doors. Sigh.

Here is a link that might be useful: American Range Link

    Bookmark   April 22, 2013 at 3:21PM
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Jenn Air came out with a dual convection fan, too, but I sure haven't heard anything about it since its introduction that was at least a few years ago now. If it was amazing, I'd think we'd have heard? I don't mean to doubt American, but wouldn't assume that all double fan systems are necessarily the same.

    Bookmark   April 22, 2013 at 5:01PM
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Unfortunately, we are just beginning to see posts about American Range Products, so far, most have been positive, but as Rhome points out, the reviews are more scarce than chicken lips, and none that I've seen, really say much about oven performance.

While I'm not the baker Rhome is, nor have I baked in a Wolf, with the "Double Convection", Electrolux does "Kick up" their convection too.

What they do is run the element around the fan, the most, when using convection, but they also alternate that with the top and bottom elements coming on for short times.
My guess is they do that to ensure even temperatures across the oven, when using convection.

Those that are bakers, CJ, for instance, says the performance of the Elux oven is great, others have "Piped in too", as far as what I use if for, it's been great, and completely trouble free for 7 years now.

Now does this mean the Elux convection is as great as the Wolf, (obviously both companies have put extra effort into convection),just a different way of trying to accomplish the same thing, (eveness of baking via convection, WELLLLL

Until an expert like Rhome uses both and compares them, we may never know!


    Bookmark   April 22, 2013 at 6:57PM
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That remains the mystery... I've never compared to the Elux...yet, anyway! ;-) If you'd told me about the removable bottom in the Elux oven cavity in time, Gary, I would probably have one in my kitchen at this very moment! Plus, some $$ in my pocket.

I considered the Fisher and Paykel an excellent baker until I had the Wolf. But I often baked without convection in the F&P, because the convection seemed to overbrown, and I couldn't bake 3 racks of cookies evenly. I thought convection was just hype until I had the Wolf. Then I became a true believer and really missed it in the bottom oven.

I have to say that I use the convection in the Gagg even more often, because that is its 'default' mode and it does well with most things... Things definitely cook faster. In all the ovens I preferred to forego convection for bread and pizza. and just heat from the bottom.

    Bookmark   April 22, 2013 at 7:07PM
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Thanks for reminder of the removable bottom in the Elux oven , Rhome. One poster, that bought, the "Elux Wavetouch", (I think). said their bottom was NOT removable.

So Now I need to spend some time researching Elux ovens, to see if it is an "Icon Only Feature", or if they did away with it completely,---I sure hope not.

On the Subject of Wolf Ovens, wasn't there a post about a new series coming out to replace the "L" Series, if so, maybe the OP should add that as #3, Wolf, Ya thinks?

Good to see ya again Rhome.
I really do appreciate your posts, as I'm sure most folks here do. You are so "Honest" in your evaluations, like missing the telescoping racks, One or 2 posters said "with side doors, you don't need them, which I dismissed as, (well I'll be nice)! I also thought it was interesting that Gaggenau was gonna offer the racks as an accessory, if they aren't needed, why offer them??

Anyway good luck to the OP on hopefully making an oven purchase that will satisfy all needs, be trouble free, and last a long time!!!


    Bookmark   April 22, 2013 at 8:04PM
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New model? Arggh!!!

Is there any substance behind this rumor? I ask because I definitely will feel slighted if we order this week and in a few weeks, or a month or two, a new oven with spiffy new features comes out.

Yes. I am not good at making decisions. ;)

    Bookmark   April 22, 2013 at 8:20PM
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I know that the E series is supposed to get a stainless control panel instead of the frosted glass. I can find mention of new ranges, but not new ovens... So who knows?

Thanks, Gary. I try to be honest. I'd love to take the best parts of every oven and have someone make that. Otherwise, they all seem to have downsides.

I was sort of fooled by the comment about the side opening doors making it less necessary to have full extension racks... and maybe it's true to an extent. I just know I've noticed the loss a couple of times when I wanted to pull the rack out further and not have it tip, or reach something in the back. The new Gaggs have a new rack system, but there isn't one in my area to see. It would cost me $500 for a telescoping rack, plus $300 for the retrofitting piece to have it fit in the oven. Yikes.

    Bookmark   April 22, 2013 at 8:28PM
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Wanted to add how much I appreciate the honesty, too. I've been fooled before by lots of praise ... Only to learn later that much of it was manipulated. So, thanks so much. Learning lots in this forum!

    Bookmark   April 22, 2013 at 8:55PM
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Oh my, it's been confirmed, they are releasing new Wolf ovens (very new and extremely different) in 2014.

Now, I don't know what to do. I can't wait a year to replace my ovens, as I'm in a buyback scenario on our current ones, but would be really disappointed not to get the latest model, which definitely looks better.

Here is a link that might be useful: New Wolf Ovens (First Quarter 2014)

    Bookmark   April 24, 2013 at 9:56AM
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It appears they're replacing the L-series, with the M-series. I love the way the "professional" model looks and it's got a significantly larger interior than current (4.5 vs 5.1 cf). Plus, they say the dual convection is improved. What to do?!?!

    Bookmark   April 24, 2013 at 10:04AM
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The new look is nice... Love the expansion of the red knobs to the oven. I wouldn't need, or necessarily want, preset programs. From what I had, especially compared to other ovens I've used, I don't know how the baking performance could get a lot better. Can't say it won't be noticeable, but really, there was nothing to complain about on that issue... Although, Breezy has said she doesn't think hers bakes as evenly as I reported mine did. But I had 3... ;-).... And each did equally well on that score.

I never had an issue with size. I fit 5 loaves of bread on 1 rack when I wanted to. I see that it will be 1/4" wider, 1" higher (both negligible), and 3+ inches deeper. That could be nice, but is it necessary? If you can fit your pans, you can fit your pans.

The one thing that could be nice about the new models coming out, is that the current floor models will be 'clearance' priced. ;-)

    Bookmark   April 24, 2013 at 10:46AM
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I wanted to add that I do understand and empathize with your quandary. But there will always be something 'new and better' down the line. I learned that when we built our house, as I waited for certain new appliances to come out, that they often don't come out on schedule... So it may be a longer wait for that new oven model than you anticipate. (I don't honestly know how Wolf is about such things)

    Bookmark   April 24, 2013 at 10:49AM
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Thanks Rhome! I know the grass is always greener, but it one thing to know something eventually will come out vs. something is coming out. I also know about slipped release dates and how common that is.

Now it feels kind of like buying a iPhone 5 today, when everyone talks about the new model being released in the next few months.

    Bookmark   April 24, 2013 at 10:58AM
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Oh and, Rhome, since you're the expert ... How did the Wolf bake stone mode work and how does it compare to the Gaggeanu separate element+stone, assuming you have that accessory. It's one of the things that really drew me to the Wolf, though I've also looked at the Mighty Pizza Oven for outdoor use. We, too, do once-a-week pizza ... Though for four people, not ten. :)

Here is a link that might be useful: Mighty Pizza Oven

    Bookmark   April 24, 2013 at 3:35PM
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Don't worry about emailing me with your questions! But it would be easier if I could email you back, perhaps.

The Wolf stone mode was supposed to be used with a proprietary stone, which I never got. I do remember trying it with my pizza stone, but went back to just regular ol' bake with the stone on the bottom rack. The stone mode in the Wolf puts 40% of the heat on broil, and 60% from the bottom. The convection fan also runs. I found that a method like that browns the tops of the pizzas faster than the crust bakes through. I have the same problem with the Gagg stone and mode. I sure wish I could keep the stone element on and turn the fan off. Since I can't, I just preheat the stone in that mode, then turn the oven to bottom heat only when I put the pizzas in.

In other words, I don't find either oven's special mode to work that well for me. They sound good, but aren't something to pay extra for. If I'm missing something anyone can suggest, I'm open to hearing it! But we are certainly happy with our results when using the stone and just the bottom-heat/fanless modes in both ovens. The Fisher and Paykel also did great, and, as I remember, our old electric range did ok, too. The only one that had a problem was the Monogram.

    Bookmark   April 24, 2013 at 3:52PM
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At the risk of sounding a like a broken record. Thanks again, Rhome. So, I'm guessing you don't have the Gaggeanu special plug-in element and stone either?

I have looked at those, but they're another $1,000 more than the Wolf's even. I do have a combi-steam, though, that I really like and use a lot. Not crazy about the look, which is hard to swallow for that much $$$.

Not sure why you can't email me back? I enabled the allows users to email me and the "email me" link shows up on my page. Maybe I'm doing something else incorrectly? Either way, it definitely wasn't intentional!

Here is a link that might be useful: Gaggeanu Double Specs

    Bookmark   April 24, 2013 at 5:39PM
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Well, glad to see I wasn't just "Dreaming", (So to Speak), about a new Wolf Model oven.

I did recall seeing the post, maybe 6 to 9 months ago, but try as I might, I could not find the "freaking thing" again, and I'm glad that you did, applnut.

I would really wait for the "M Model".

We are just seeing too many posts on porcelain problems on the current Wolf ovens, Yes, I found posts on the "L" models too.

Unfortunely Breezygal's E Series, (I think it's an E), has just been added to the list of porcelain problems, see her posts and pictures about it, _Very Sorry Breezygal!

Maybe get a counter oven, or something real cheap to "Plug the hole", until the "M" is available.

As they way, "Where there's A Will" there a Way! (alto Usually a Lawyer there too) (LOL)

Anyway hang in there, applnut!


    Bookmark   April 24, 2013 at 7:49PM
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My ovens are the L series.

There is no guarantee that the new M model won't have the same porcelain issues, but I think I'd try to find a way to wait until they come out to buy. Maybe buy a used or scratch/dent oven that wouldn't require any modifications on your current oven cutout and then sell it when the new Wolf is released.

Is the date of 2014 all you could find on the new model release? That's a might big time span. If its late 2014 and they have a release delay, which I would expect to happen, it could be late first quarter 2015 before they are ready for market. Gosh, that's a long time from now to live with something temporary....

    Bookmark   April 24, 2013 at 7:56PM
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I agree, Breezy (about the long time). The specs say Q1 (which means Jan-Apr) 2014 BUT, release dates are never set in stone.

I did ask Wolf about this and, to their credit, they responded immediately and did not deny that is has occurred, as I think many other makers would. I don't feel comfortable posting the email I received publicly, but I was told that it doesn't usually happen if you do the initial "burn in" of the oven, but can happen even if you do. He did say Wolf stands firmly behind their products and that "97% of all product never having a warranty claim."

Man, I'd love to be in that 97% for a change, instead of the 3%.

    Bookmark   April 24, 2013 at 8:11PM
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I do, indeed, have the special element and stone for the Gagg, which is how I know I'm not a fan of the mode. :-/ Which also means, I spent money for not much. Thankfully, because my oven was delivered with dents (around the bottom at one side and the back, so not visible once installed), they sold me the accessories for less than retail. So I'm not out as much money as I might have been. As I said, I think, I preheat the stone using its element, then switch modes to bottom-heat-only when I put in the pizzas, so the fan turns off. I can see that when I'm baking pizzas for a large group, and the stone starts to cool at all, I can reheat it with the element faster than I could without... So that's an advantage, since I have it already. I'm sure not buying one for the 2nd oven cavity. (I can use what I have in either cavity, but if I need to run 2 ovens for pizza, I'll just use a standard stone)

Agreeing with Breezy that I see nothing in the info that says they've addressed the porcelain issue for the M series, and wouldn't trust that they have. Wolf sure never said anything about planning to make any improvement in the porcelain to me in our lengthy conversations that resulted in their buying the oven back.

They kept trying to tell me my situation was unusual, and it had to be my, not at all abusive, but out-of-the-ordinary baking frequency and the weekly pizza baking. First of all, the first item is incorrect, which we now know from many reports here, and the 2nd is just ridiculousness. What I do with my ovens is NOT anything they shouldn't be able to handle. I sure didn't do 20 year's worth of baking in the 5 months it took oven #3 to have porcelain issues.

97% without warranty claims? Maybe in all appliances, but I highly doubt that holds true for their ovens.

    Bookmark   April 24, 2013 at 8:56PM
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Have to agree with you about the 97%, Rhome

(1) What is the 97%, is it based on the sales for just one year, or is it since they made the first oven or first appliance?

(2) Like Rhome said, is that based on all Wolf Appliances, or just the ovens?

(3) It just does not "Jive", we what we see here in Garden Web.
Now we know that the posters that have the Wolf Ovens, Rhome, Breezy Gal, and the others, None of them came onto Garden Web to complain about their Wolf ovens.
(So we can't say only the complainer are posting). Sooooo , if we take into account the posters here in Garden Web that have Wolf Ovens, and have had porcelain problems, it is WAY BIGGER, than 3% (100% - 97%).
((Maybe we should do a pole here, Who has Wolf Ovens, Model, and have you have a porcelain problem))?

To Wolf's credit, they have admitted to the problem, but "PERHAPS", "downplayed it a bit", Ya thinks?

I think Wolf Knowing that they have a "Porcelain Problem", be it large or small, I think they will go to Extra Effort to eliminate a "repeat Performance", with the "M" model.

When I ran my business, if I saw a problem, I designed it out, post haste, first it saved me money, reputation, and most importantly, It kept me off airplanes
(to go fix that which was broken).

I'm glad you "Cleared Up" the "Usage Factor" with the Wolf, Rhome, I've seen a couple post, (You may have too), that hinted the problem was due to the way you used your oven, as we know, That's "Pure Poppycock"!!!


    Bookmark   April 24, 2013 at 10:07PM
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They should certainly know they have a problem, but I don't agree that they admit to it. They downplay it and keep claiming it's rare in cases of proper use and care. There seems to be no effort to address it. Hugely disappointing in the face of their reputation and other positives. If they improved something in the M oven that would solve this problem, I think they'd be sure to mention something about a change.

In my last exchange with Wolf, the customer service rep told me the engineers spent days considering my issues and couldn't come up with any reason but that the ovens were manufactured for "normal use," and that I wasn't the "norm." Now what about everyone else here... All of us who studied our purchases and totally believed in Wolf? Like you said, none of the recent complainants are people who searched out the forum in order to gripe, but longtime contributors.

I'll shut up now. ;-) Someone got after me for complaining too often about my horrid Monogram experience, and now I'm risking that about the Wolf!

    Bookmark   April 24, 2013 at 10:17PM
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I did get information from Wolf that says the new M-series ovens will have removable bottoms, which should help the issue, from what I understand.

Still stuck in that place though where I don't have a year to wait and get a new one. If I did, I'd definitely be going with the Wolf M, no question. As it is ... I'm kind of stumped.

    Bookmark   April 25, 2013 at 1:05PM
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That removable bottom is really a nice feature, appinut.
My Elux Icon, that I bought back in 2006 has that.

Unfortunately, after checking both the Elux Web site, as well as the Elux Icon Web site, and down;loading the operator's manual from both sites, it looks like Elux discontinued the removable bottom, what A "Jammer" (Dutch for "Bummer")!

They also removed the instructions on how to remove the window glass, so one could clean "between the Panes".

I hope mine outlast me, as I sure likie those features and the way it works,---most likely it was their "Bean Counters" that "thought they saw a way to save some production costs" and maybe the lawyers against taking out the window glass to clean it?

I did leave you a link in another thread for the Brochure on the American Ranges/Ovens.

American Range sure has a selection, even 1 gas and 1 electric oven (Double Oven), but from what I see, most of them are not self cleaning, ---No "biggie" to me , as I never use it on my Elux.

Good luck with your "Pondering"!


    Bookmark   April 25, 2013 at 2:10PM
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Gary--I do think it would be interesting to start a thread titled specifically to call out those with porcelain issues so we could see how many and how Wolf was addressing the issue. There are remarks from those of us currently having issues here and there is other threads, but it's not consolidated in one thread.

Rhome--Thansk for pointing me to this thread. I missed it when Applnut mentioned the removable bottom in the new M series. Very interesting.

When I asked the service tech at my house on Monday what Wolf usually does with situations like this (he did say he's seen this before, but rarely), he said Wolf replaces the ovens. He did say that once, in a range, Wolf had him replace the interior and that it is an extremely difficult and time cosuming job to do so. Now, when Wolf suggests he replaces the oven's interior, he refuses and directs them to the distributor Bradlee for the work.

    Bookmark   May 1, 2013 at 2:21PM
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"Breezy" as someone still on the fence on whether to jump in and go with Wolf, I like that idea of a consolidated thread so that we can REALLY see how widespread that is. I'm worried that, since I'm not in the same area, I would get repair, not replacement, should it happen to me. I asked Wolf outright what the procedure WERE this to happen to me, since I'd already told them I was worried about it after reading multiple reports, and they said "it varies," which wasn't confidence inspiring.

    Bookmark   May 1, 2013 at 7:06PM
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Applnut, I don't think you have to worry about not being taken care of as nicely because of your area. I always spoke directly to Wolf, and they were the ones who instructed the distributor to arrange replacement. I've never had it be on the shoulders of the distributor to make that call.

I just don't think they want to stick their neck out and guarantee you any course of action for a "what if" scenario. Gharborwa was told they might replace the oven cavity, but now they're swapping out the whole oven. I heard the same from a tech that an oven liner replacement is a huge hassle, and I've only heard of it happening on an oven in a range... and that was years ago.

Really, it's somewhat frustrating, but they are quick to respond and do pretty well. I had to wait a couple weeks for one of the ovens, because the distributor didn't have any on hand. But Wolf made sure my oven was in his next shipment. My only real complaint is that they kept trying to say I was an odd case, and then couldn't support my use of their ovens any more. :-( I felt abandoned and unloved as a customer!

    Bookmark   May 1, 2013 at 7:30PM
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My new ovens are in as of 15 minutes ago. I'm in the process of doing the slow burn-off method, which will probably take all night.

Applnut--Have you made any decisions?

    Bookmark   May 9, 2013 at 7:02PM
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How bout we just start a new post about "Oven Porcelain" and get inputs about all ovens?

(That way it won't look like a "Wolf Bash") and maybe in the long run, be more "Helpful"?
(WE know it isn't a Wolf Bash, but new readers, may not.)


    Bookmark   May 9, 2013 at 7:52PM
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I think that's a great idea. Is that something you could take on, Gary?

    Bookmark   May 9, 2013 at 8:57PM
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Yeah, NP, Breezygirl


    Bookmark   May 9, 2013 at 9:59PM
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OP here. Still haven't really decided anything yet, but am running out of time. Still leaning towards Wolf, though I'm definitely worried about the porcelain problems. Upside is that they do seem to (mostly) take care of customers.

    Bookmark   May 16, 2013 at 11:52AM
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Thanks to all who offered advice and shared experiences. We did end up going with the Wolf L-series double oven and, hopefully, it will be installed in the next week or two. We went round and round and round about options but just kept coming back to the Wolf. My fingers and toes are crossed that I won't experience the issues so many of you have. And, if I do, I won't be able to say I wasn't warned. Thanks again for all your help!

    Bookmark   May 28, 2013 at 3:57PM
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Thanks to all who offered advice and shared experiences. We did end up going with the Wolf L-series double oven and, hopefully, it will be installed in the next week or two. We went round and round and round about options but just kept coming back to the Wolf. My fingers and toes are crossed that I won't experience the issues so many of you have. And, if I do, I won't be able to say I wasn't warned. Thanks again for all your help!

    Bookmark   May 28, 2013 at 3:58PM
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Congrats on making the decision and 'pulling the trigger.' :-) That's such an accomplishment, because it really can be tough. You have pretty good assurance that Wolf will try to take care of you if you ever have troubles, so I think you'll do fine. And with the promise of the M oven in the future, it's a decent bet, I think.

    Bookmark   May 28, 2013 at 4:42PM
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Wolf L series double ovens and warming drawer installed yesterday. Did the burn in and a few small things so far. Will get better test later this week but so far, so good. My Monogram ovens never could have run with both ovens going at 500 degrees for 1 hr, let alone longer, so first big test passed for Wolf.

A couple tiny glitches, including a cabinet modified to spec that still shows 1/4" hole at top (Monograms were taller). So, grrr, on having to pay to have it redone again. Also missing one of the ball bearing racks, but already contacted Wolf and they said they'd send it out ASAP.

Few small observations, why can't an oven this expensive provide all glide racks? Monogram does, and they're enamel racks that can stay in during self-clean. I'm gonna miss that!

Also, only one probe for a double oven that has two probes? Silly. And cheap. (Monogram came with one for each oven there, too.)

The ovens themselves are clearly smaller than the Monogram cavities, but only time will tell if that's an actual issue or just red herring "feature". Kind of hate the touch pad on first use: seems to be slow/fast/erratic to respond to touches. Perhaps just need to get used to it, but my preference is definitely physical knobs for accuracy.

Lastly, there's a powerful fan that vents out the bottom which A) is hot in our 100-degree weather and B) is probably why these ovens actually work without "overheating" and shutting down, unlike Monogram, which uses passive venting. And, overall, I'd rather have them work. :) (Crazy idea: an oven that gets hot and is designed to stay on for more than 30 minutes. Who would have thunk it?)

Can't wait to put these guys through their paces!

This post was edited by applnut on Sat, Jun 22, 13 at 13:07

    Bookmark   June 22, 2013 at 11:47AM
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The Monogram racks are so much bulkier than the Wolf ones, that I think you gain space there, so "usable space" in each may be a wash.. I never noticed, or had a problem with the cavity size when I went from my Monogram to the Wolf. I agree that the racks should ALL be the glide racks! If we lived close together, I could share, because I have extras that do me no good now. I also have an extra probe I could send you if you want to email me your address.

The Monogram had a few things right... The racks that stayed in for self-clean, and the double timers with the clock stayed visible while the timers were on. The Wolf, though, is fantastic in that regard compared to my Gaggenau, which has numbers that are only 1/8", so not readable from any distance. (Plus the fact that the Gagg is shallower than any so rectangular pans have to sit side-to-side, and a 16" pizza is out of the question.) I often wish I could have an oven built with the pluses from each manufacturer's designs in one!

You will get used to the touch pad. I remember the first few days of feeling like a brush of air sometimes operated the buttons. Also, any touch pad's response seems to be affected by skin temperature and any wetness on your hands. One reason I like knobs.

Anyway, I do think you have what is likely the best performing oven available. Enjoy, enjoy, enjoy!

    Bookmark   June 22, 2013 at 3:09PM
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Well, I've been using my Wolf double ovens for about a week now and have been cooking up a storm to test them out. So far, I'm suitably impressed.

I've done pizza on a stone and a steel, brownies (always a good test of oven evenness in my opinion), about 7 dozen different kinds of cookies for a party, lasagna, chicken and a long, slow pork braise ... I've even done my first self-clean without incident after that lasagna I mentioned bubbled over badly (oops).

All in all, while I feel it runs a touch hot--it's the first convection oven I've ever used where I've had to both adjust recipes 25 degrees AND shorten their cook time; not one or another--it does bake very, very evenly and the bake stone mode (using my stone, not Wolf's specialty) at 550 degrees has produced the best oven pizzas we've ever done, cooking in about half the time they did in a similar Monogram set-up and getting better and more even browning as well. It's like night and day.

My tiny gripes from my first impression still remain. Don't love the touchpad, hate the too faint oven timer (weird, since even the warming drawer timer is louder than that!) and the interior is quite a few inches less deep than my Monogram, which has proved a pan hassle once or twice.

Also wasn't blown away by the broiler ... Which is serviceable, but not superior to anything I've really had before.

Still, overall, this is a huge cooking upgrade. Thanks again to everyone here for all your information and advice!

    Bookmark   July 3, 2013 at 8:59AM
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Well, after less than eight months of use, and approximately 3-4 self cleans, I've been struck with the flaking blue enamel in the corners of my L-series upper oven. So far, my lower oven, which has only been self-cleaned once, is fine.

After all my back and forth with Wolf--talking to the same rep even--I was pretty shocked at their initial response when I sent photos, etc. which was, "it's only cosmetic" and "let us know if it gets worse."

I told them I disagreed since, A, it's a $7k-plus oven that's less than a year old and, B, it's a convection oven (blowing fan) and every time I touch the corners now I get blue flakes so, yeah, duh, it's gonna get worse and I don't like the idea of those little flakes blowing around in there with my food.

They then offered to "replace the oven cavity" and said that was "standard procedure" when only one oven in a double oven was showing signs of flaking. (Of course, my guess is only one is flaking NOW, because that has been used, and self-cleaned, more than the lower oven has.)

They also said the new models, which potentially have fixed this problem with their removable bottom, have been pushed back to December.

Not sure what I should even ask for, or do at this point.

    Bookmark   March 6, 2014 at 12:39PM
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Yikes. December is a ways. And that's IF the release date doesn't get pushed back again.

Let's see... You could A) go ahead with the cavity replacement, and then do it again when the bottom one flakes?

B) Since you have several months before your warranty expires, you could use the bottom oven more until it, as it almost certainly will, flakes and then you'll apparently meet the criteria for oven replacement. You could maybe only use the top for non-convection modes?

Unfortunately, anytime in the next several months, it'll be replaced with the L and not the M, so you will probably just be, either A (parts 1 and 2) or B, waiting to go through all of this again... but maybe the M will be out by then.

Such great baking technology with continued disappointment regarding responsibility over this issue! :-( I truly don't think self-clean is the issue. This is tough. I think I'd go with B for less hassle, as long as you don't get too close to your warranty expiration, and as long as it isn't a huge inconvenience to use the lower oven.

So sorry you're having this trouble...

    Bookmark   March 6, 2014 at 1:31PM
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The ovens are supposed to have a full three-year warranty (standard two-year plus additional year for Wolf certified installation), with an additional two year parts warranty, so I've got a lot more than just a few months before my warranty expires.

So far, the flaking area is small. Only in the corners and only at the seam, but if I touch the area small blue flakes show up on my fingertip.

I admit I was looking for these things after all I've read here. Hoping to not find them, but looking all the same. My heart about stopped yesterday when those bright blue flakes showed up on my white towel while wiping out after a self-clean. (And, yes, the oven was cool--approx. 8 hour after cleaning cycle finished--and the towel was just slightly damp to help pick up the ash-like stuff left in the cavity after a self-clean.)

    Bookmark   March 6, 2014 at 1:43PM
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Time is on your side...that's good! But be careful. I wiped my oven when it was in that condition and got a shard of porcelain in my finger... and it doesn't pull out, just breaks off and keeps cutting!

    Bookmark   March 6, 2014 at 1:47PM
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Hi Applnut, I see you have joined the club. If I were you I would get your salesperson and Wolf's distributor in your area involved. I did and I ended up getting a new oven. I had to paid $500, but I was 6 months out of warranty. Mine is an E-series and it is chipping again. Same as yours, lower front corners. Don't let them push you around. You paid a lot of money for that oven.

    Bookmark   March 6, 2014 at 1:54PM
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Sorry to hear that you have joined the club.
My range oven did not show up until 4.5 years because it was not used as much as it is the secondary oven. It is also very low so I maybe did not see it as quickly. I would probably ask for my money back but you might be stuck with them changing the liner out. That takes care of the immediate problem but not the recurring problem. Once you are to the "parts only" part of the warranty, the labor is killer because in my case they would not give the price and you have to have their people do it so you are over a barrel. Actually if you read the warranty, they do not cover the liner of the oven in that second half "parts" warranty. They basically told me I was lucky for them to provide the part.
It is hard to say how many ovens are affected but of the ones reported here, they have had repeated failures so I think quite a few. I would think if they had fixed it "years ago" as seems to be the sales line, this would not be the case. They would make sure you got one of the fixed ones.
The fix on the new models is making the bottom more easily replaceable. It might relieve stress on the corners but you still have enamel chipping in the middle.

Here is a link that might be useful: Wolf Warranty

    Bookmark   March 7, 2014 at 9:12AM
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Do they claim to have 'fixed' this ever before? I don't believe there are any fixed ovens at this point. My first was a floor model, so a year or so old, but the other 2 were straight off the line.

The new bottom is supposed to come easily out, so if the middle chips or scars, if I'm imagining right, it should be an easy fix without replacing the whole appliance. I just hope it solves the corner problem with the seam/break between the 2 pieces relieving the stress on the curves. If it doesn't do that, then it won't be much help. Dacor has had a replaceable glass bottom for years, and that's what I'm imagining when they announced this change. If nothing else, Dacor's made the element easier to access for repair or replacement, but I've never read complaints about their porcelain either.

Be warned, though. Someone else contacted me about having this problem. **Wolf's current offer is to replace the cavity for 'free' as long as she pays the labor. But also, they told her the new cavity would have no warranty!!! --WHAT?!!!

**Edited to add the newest development: Wolf has now agreed to have the cavity replaced (paying labor, too), and original customer service rep gave misinformation that the new cavity wouldn't have a warranty. Parts, including it, have a 1 yr warranty. Phew! That's much better.**

This post was edited by rhome410 on Fri, Mar 7, 14 at 20:21

    Bookmark   March 7, 2014 at 1:38PM
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Wowzers! I am caught up in this Wolf mess. I read everything I could about double ovens, weighed the options, and went with Wolf knowing the M series was coming, supposedly 1Q 2014. The day after my oven cabinet was installed my rep called to tell me the rollout for the M might be Dec. 2015. I have been searching everything trying to find a solution. I've narrowed to three (but, of course, you all could persuade me): Bosch is coming out with its Benchmark series April 15 (allegedly!).
Wait for the M and have hopeful, wishful thinking that Wolf has really solved the problem. Miele and hope they have finally fixed the temp problem.

The delay is rather hysterical since my whole house remodel entered Year 3 in August. I have been cooking on one induction hob and two Breveille Smart Ovens. I have had some really good results. Don't laugh. But at 64 my years of delay are in the crosshairs.

Like the Geico lizard over dramatically on his knees, "Will some body please help me!"

    Bookmark   March 28, 2014 at 1:00PM
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December 2015?!! That's a long wait.

I hadn't heard about the Bosch Benchmark series. Looks impressive! But I'm always hesitant to try the first year of any new series without any history or reviews to study. Still...Looks nice!

I find it particularly interesting that, according to the CNET review: "These 30-inch ovens boast a "universal cutout design" for easy installation." What a great idea, but doesn't it only work if everyone does it? After having to change the size of my oven cabinet 3 times, I sure wish ovens were more consistent in size.

The horizontal or vertical installation choices? Cool. And I really like the emphasis on the probe, which is an oven tool I love and wouldn't want to be without.

I'm starting to feel like Wolf and Miele have had so many chances...and they're expensive. The extra expense should mean no big problems, shouldn't it?

In your shoes, I might go with DCS (I happen to love their look, and my F&P ovens performed pretty well...but their price is high, too), Electrolux (Not a looker, but good performance reviews for a few years now, and at a comparatively affordable price), or be drawn to the pretty and amazing sounding new Bosch. --But I've been burned a couple of times in following the new, sparkly, and interesting, instead of the 'tried and true.'

How's that for no help at all?! After what I've been through, I would've hoped to find a good answer. Nope. :-(

Maybe Bosch has it in this new oven? Or maybe Electrolux does and we're not giving them enough credit.

    Bookmark   March 28, 2014 at 10:28PM
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Well, self-cleaned the bottom oven again, to see what happened and ended up with this: enamel totally gone on the top right-hand side of the oven.

I'm totally baffled because this is actually much worse, and over a significantly larger area, than the upper oven flaking at the oven bottom seams. Plus, this is the less-frequently-used bottom oven, so 1) it blows my self-clean/greater-use theory out of the water and 2) is in a place that youâÂÂd think would have VERY little stress or use. Heck, I donâÂÂt think IâÂÂve ever even touched this area before and wouldnâÂÂt have seen it if I wasnâÂÂt right up against it cleaning today.

Again, just like in the top oven, I noticed this after doing a self-clean yesterday and while wiping down the interior before reinstalling the racks and supports this morning.

I've sent this on to Wolf. I will let you know what they say.

All in all, I'm just unreasonably depressed about the whole thing. $7,000+ and well less than a year of us. This sucks. :(

    Bookmark   April 3, 2014 at 12:11PM
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Yikes. Not at all unreasonable to be down about spending that kind of money for these kind of problems in such short order. Looking forward to hearing what Wolf says this time. I'm glad you didn't mess with a cavity replacement for the initial problem.

Until this latest round...with your top oven and another report to me via email from another Wolf oven owner at the same time... I barely held onto some belief, and still thought, if given the chance, I'd risk buying Wolf ovens again to regain their performance. Now, that belief is finally slipping through the tips of my fingers, and I am wondering, also, what is causing the delay of the new models. Are they still producing and selling these problematic ovens in the meanwhile? :-/

    Bookmark   April 3, 2014 at 4:48PM
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Well, Wolf has responded and has offered to replace my oven ASAP, or given me the option of waiting for the M-series to come out and giving me a replacement of that model. Right now that is scheduled for December, but obviously it's not set in stone, since that same oven was originally scheduled for release by this month.

My instinct is to wait, for fear a replacement L-series would just have the same issues all over again, but I'm also nervous about what the delay is about and any first-gen product is always a little nerve-wracking. I don't want to make a mistake and get stuck with a one-time replacement scenario where what I get is worse than what I've got.

It's also super odd in that the enamel coming off on the bottom oven is very different than the enamel coming off in the top oven. In the top oven itâÂÂs flaking in very small amounts, just on the bottom seam, and feels rough. While in the bottom oven it seems to have, in the course of one self-clean, come off that fairly large area almost cleanly, with only a few fragments left behind, and except for those fragments, it feels totally smooth, like itâÂÂs down to the bare metal.


    Bookmark   April 3, 2014 at 7:06PM
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I don't know what to think about the way your bottom oven got so bare! I don't think you should have to wait for a working oven for a possibly indefinite period. (With major bare spots and loose porcelain pieces, I wouldn't describe the one you have as adequately operational.) Whatever oven they give you should be warrantied and they need to stand behind it within a warranty period starting from installation of that new oven. So if you take an L now, and it develops problems within the next year or two, you can swap for an M then? I don't know why anything they do for you should be a "one time only" thing if you end up with new or repeated problems.

    Bookmark   April 4, 2014 at 1:13AM
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Hi - these postings have been very helpful. I'm renovating my kitchen and currently have a Miele wall oven and also cooktop. I really hate both of them - the oven takes forever to heat up/cool down, the broil option never gives a good sear and I feel is very inconsistent in terms of the heating (I much prefer my old GE cafe series oven). And the racks aren't even so when I bake, my cakes are always higher on the side close to the door. As for the cooktop, it keeps shutting off if I put a large pot/pan on one of the burners or use two burners at the same time. So annoying!

For my next kitchen I looked at the Wolf double ovens but was concerned about the terrible Consumer Report review (they gave the Wolf DO30-2F/S a 55 out of 100 rating; "good" for baking & oven capacity, excellent for broiling, and fair for self cleaning; I don't see this model on the Wolf website anymore though but am afraid that Wolf generally don't perform very well), the concerns that you posted about the chipping enamel and also the fact that the lower oven doesn't have the convection option.

Consumer Report give the Bosch HBL8650UC model a rating of 72 and gives "very good" ratings for the baking, broiling, oven capacity and self cleaning. The model they rated is a bit older and the new Benchmark series offer slightly better features. Has anyone (maybe lawrence-gardener) tried the new Bosch Benchmark series?

I'm totally willing to pay up for the Wolf but am concerned about the reviews so far....I would really hate to get it and then be unhappy as I am now with my Mieles.

Also, any advice on which cooktop I should consider? I think I'd like a cooktop with the control knobs either on the side or at the bottom, not in the middle of the panel - I have a very large paella pan and figured out that the middle knobs don't allow me to position the pan evenly on the burner.

Thanks much - I hope rhome410 or someone else is still reading this thread....

    Bookmark   January 25, 2015 at 5:39PM
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I would be much more concerned about the Wolf porcelain problems mentioned in this thread than the Consumer Reports rating (CR is useless for cooking products).

HBL8650UC has been discontinued for about 8 months now. There's another example of CR being useless.

What kind of cooktop are you shopping for? Gas? Radiant electric? Induction?

Your Miele oven experience certainly conflicts with most I've heard. How old is it? Maybe it is one of the ones that got affected by the known temperature issue which has now been fixed. Other than that... what's wrong with an oven taking a long time to cool down? That means it's well insulated. Isn't that a good thing?

If you liked your GE Cafe oven, why not just buy another one of those? That seems like a much better idea than spending a lot of money on something you're unsure you'll like. That brings me to another question... GE Cafe hasn't been out that long in the scheme of things, so the GE Cafe you replaced couldn't have been that old. Why did you get rid of it?

    Bookmark   January 25, 2015 at 6:54PM
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I don't mind the cool down, but the 25-30 mins it takes my Miele to heat up drives me crazy...it takes too much planning, memory to turn on and is sometimes difficult to juggle everything with a 3.5 year old. My Miele is probably 8 to 9 years old (it was already in the apt when we moved in). The GE cafe was in my old apt and the Miele is in my current apt. I guess I can get another GE cafe but was thinking about going a bit more higher end.

Wasn't aware that CR is useless for cooking products. When you mention that they are useless, are you referring to the fact that they don't update the reviews to show new products or do you disagree with their assessment/ratings?

So other than the porcelain problems, it seems like everyone is very happy with the performance of the Wolf. I'm waffling between getting the E or M series double ovens vs. the new Bosch Benchmark side opening door double ovens - any thoughts?

Also any recommendations for 1) gas cooktop, Wolf, Viking, Bosch, 30" or 36"; 2) hood - we can only get a recirculating one vs. a vent out, the Miele DA 3480 looks interesting but I can't find any reviews on it and am a bit gun shy on Miele appliances; 3) Bosch vs. Miele dishwasher and 4) a refrigerator, we need something with 2 freezer drawers so maybe a Subzero?

As you mentioned hvtech42, CR is somewhat useless in that they don't rate the higher end brands (or only rate 1 of the models, which are typically quite old). So since the initial research that I've done is based on CR reviews, I'm now hesitant to rely on it hence all the questions.

Thanks much!

    Bookmark   January 27, 2015 at 6:00PM
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I know of no ovens that "Properly Preheat" to 350F or so, in less than a half hour. There are some that put the temp sensor where it just measures the hot air, and that will cause the preheat light or whatever indicator used to show preheat is done, but only the air is at the preheat temp, the oven walls floor, & misc parts of the oven cavity will still not be up to temp.

This would be ok for many things, but not things like 3 sheets of cookies, pizza, and many other so called "Delicate things".

Miele, from their own service manual specs the time to get to 375F as about 40 mins as I recall.

While not a Miele oven fan myself, I think you are better off with the Miele than a newer GE.

Have you checked the temp of your Miele oven with an oven thermometer? Yours is about the age where some Miele ovens had a software problem and never got to the correct temp. Hvtech 42 posted as to what Miele ovens "May need" the software update.

As far as CR goes, they do supply some "useful info".
An example is the temperature performance of a refrigerator. They measure different areas of the fridge to check for temp differences, I think they check the recovery time it takes to get back to temp after a door is opened.
They check noise levels.

Where CR falters is in their final rating of an appliance.
They don't have an appliance long enough for any data as far as reliability goes. For this, go down to the bottom of the CR review and read the reviews of the appliance by CR subscribers that acutally bought the appliance. Sometimes you will see horrible reviews there for an appliance that CR gave a good score to. So using both CR's take as well as their reader's reviews, can be useful.


    Bookmark   January 27, 2015 at 6:36PM
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When you mention that they are useless, are you referring to the fact that they don't update the reviews to show new products or do you disagree with their assessment/ratings?

I disagree with their assessment/ratings. I see the same product under different brand names get different scores. That tell me either their tests are unreliable, or they are biased (despite what they claim).

    Bookmark   January 27, 2015 at 7:23PM
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The Wolf M series *might* have fixed the porcelain problem, we don't know. The E series is definitely still affected by the porcelain problem and should be avoided. The majority of people who frequent Gardenweb and own Wolf have been affected by it. You must also keep in mind it is easy to miss, so some people may have it never notice until they swallow a shard.

I don't why you would want to take a risk on Wolf when there are plenty of other ovens with good reviews for baking performance and without known unfixed issues like this.

    Bookmark   January 27, 2015 at 7:44PM
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hvtech42 - can you recommend another oven per your response above? I'm open to any other brand. It's just overwhelming to decide when I haven't shopped for a double oven in the past....

    Bookmark   January 27, 2015 at 9:19PM
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Electrolux and Bosch Benchmark are my "bang for the buck" picks. Electrolux has a cobalt blue porcelain interior that does not chip (anymore), 2 glide racks per cavity (industry standard is 0 or 1), controls that only light up the applicable options. Bosch Benchmark has side swing doors (like Gaggenau but at a much lower price point). Both Bosch and Electrolux have tons of cooking modes and have been reviewed mostly positively in terms of reliability baking performance.

If money is no object, look at Gaggenau. They are the most expensive double oven on the US market. Triple pane glass door, air catalyzer, 4 heating elements per cavity (industry standard is 3), rotisserie, side swing doors, and the most flexible/advanced controls in the industry. You get to pick exactly where the heat comes from instead of the traditional general terms like bake and broil. Known for high performance.

Remember that all oven brands have dissatisfied customers, and if you pay too much attention to their reviews you will never be able to make a choice. The main thing to beware of is when an oven gets repeated complaints from different people about the exact same issue (for example, Wolf porcelain).

This post was edited by hvtech42 on Tue, Jan 27, 15 at 21:51

    Bookmark   January 27, 2015 at 9:43PM
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Great, I'm glad you like the Bosch Benchmark series. After reading the complaints about the Wolf porcelain issues, I looked at the Bosch Benchmark ovens. The features look great but I haven't been able to find any reviews on the Bosch - glad you mentioned it!

Do you have any thoughts on my other appliance questions (cooktop, hood, refrigerator, dish washer)?

    Bookmark   January 28, 2015 at 8:27AM
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There won't be many reviews of the Benchmark series because they didn't come out very long ago. I do know at least one person on this forum has one though, and they love it.

Cooktop: To be honest I don't really like gas cooktops so I'm not too familiar with the different offerings out there. If I had to buy one I would get Bluestar or Thermador because I believe they have the best burner designs (most powerful and most even). There are other factors to consider though like grates and burner/control layout and unfortunately I think both of those have center controls. I think the best thing you can do here is go to a showroom and maybe bring your pans. Personally I prefer induction cooktops, or, if it has to be gas, a rangetop.

Hood: It's a fan in a metal box. Not much to go wrong. Buy the one that you like the looks, features and price of. Stay away from the no-name, obviously made in China ones that are only available online.

Dishwasher: Bosch vs. Miele is a tossup. They are both good quality, Miele slightly more so but with a price to match. Again pick the one with the looks and features you want with a price you can afford. Make sure to bring your dishes to the showroom and make sure the racks will work for you.

Fridge: What type do you need? Freestanding/built in/integrated? What width? French door/single door? (I'm assuming bottom mount since you mention drawers)

This post was edited by hvtech42 on Wed, Jan 28, 15 at 11:23

    Bookmark   January 28, 2015 at 11:22AM
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For the fridge, I'd like something with a lot of freezer space - maybe some thing with 2 freezer drawers. Not too sure about the freestanding vs. built in vs. integrated. I haven't looked at the merits of each of these options yet.

    Bookmark   January 29, 2015 at 6:56PM
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