Mongoct, Noopd, or Others, Please Advise Me on My Shower Plan

enduringApril 18, 2013

As I stated on another thread I loved Noopd's bathroom. The shower includes the Hansgrohe Raindance E 420 Air 2jet Overhead Shower along with a handheld.

Noopd's shower picture This is the GW thread that has Noopd's shower pictured - the first picture posted 1/2 way down.

I am just beginning my second bathroom remodel. I want a mounted shower head as well as a hand held shower head. I would like to consider the use of the Raindance 420 shower head. I only have the room for a 3'x4' sized shower (Kohler cast iron pan) that will be enclosed.

Purist Shower base

The shower head is 17" wide by 8" deep. It projects from the wall on an integrated arm by about 17 or 18" at the end of the fixture. So that means the head will be nearing the center of the shower footprint.

I can not go into the ceiling to mount the shower head because it is a cold attic.

The italics below is edited information to correct the error message that was popping up with my original link

To see the Raindance E 420 Air 2jet go to the home page of the PRO Hansgrohe, at:

Select Hansgrohe, to showers, to Raindance. On the Raindance page the E420 2 jet should be on the bottom row of the first page of products in this category. Again there is a link to the "Assembly Instructions" on the actual product page. See page 4, and 31-38 for details of this shower head.

1) Is this head too large for my sized shower space?
2) Is a 2" drain large enough for the shower head, plus a hand held shower, if both are running at the same time? 3) The specs state that the drain is to have a capacity to drain >50 liters/min (>13.2 gal/min). I can not interpret the graph that shows water output using the different combo options of shower heads. The graph is on page 33 of the "Assembly Instructions"
3) If the shower head is too large, are there other Hansgrohe options that will provide a nice shower experience? My DH loves showers with some gusto. He works hard farming and I would love to have a well thought out shower for him.

Other thoughts are welcome as well. Thank you very much for taking the time to help me.

This post was edited by enduring on Fri, Apr 19, 13 at 9:23

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Here is a link that might be useful: Best Shower head out there

    Bookmark   April 18, 2013 at 12:49AM
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Raehelen, thanks for posting. I had looked at the Giessdorf a few months ago but had steered away for some reason. But it was in the back of my head for a while. Then that beauty of a shower gets posted by Noopd. Have you used a Giessdorf shower head?

The cost is high for the Hansgrohe and the size might be too big for my space. Mongoct had commented on your thread about 2 separate supply valves he has, and uses a rainhead and a hand held which can run two different temps of water. That might work for me too.

    Bookmark   April 18, 2013 at 8:53AM
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That's odd, for some reason my message is not appearing in the above post...just the link...oh well... No, I haven't tried it, but it does sound like a shower I would enjoy! I think I may have been scared off by the weight of the shower head, and by the time I bought the extra heavy duty arm needed to support it, paid shipping and duty, I just stayed with an adjustable shower head that was part of the Riobel system I got from a local plumbing wholesaler.

I actually tried to find the valves Mongo referred to, supplied by Symmons, and that's how I found the plumbing supply place I went with! Funny story, the guy I talked to on the phone was going to get back to me with a quote, and in the meantime suggested I drive to one of their showrooms (my town's was just a wholesaler). by the time I got there, I actually forgot about the Symmons, I don't think they had any on display or it might have jogged my obviously faulty memory!!!

    Bookmark   April 18, 2013 at 11:22AM
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1) I don't think the showerhead is too large. It's a good-sized head, designed to cover the head and shoulders with water spray.

2) I tried your hansgrohe links in firefox and safari, I get errors, so I can't see the pages you're referencing. I'd like to see the 13gpm reference. I'd think that the head would be a "standard" 2.5gpm head. Two outlets for 5gpm total. Add a 2.5gpm handheld, you're at 7.5gpm and 6DFUs, which is fine for a 2" drain.

For code purposes, a 2" drain can be fed by three shower heads. Doesn't matter if they are on diverters and only one or two of the three can flow water simultaneously. You simply count the heads. Each head counts for 2 DFUs (drainage fixture units). And then you look at the drain. A 2" drain can outflow 6DFUs. Your proposed shower will have three heads feeding a 2" drain, so its code compliant.

I can't vouch for the spray or the type of flow out of the 420, I've never used one. With the 420 having a waterfall-type setting and a rainshower setting, if your husband likes a strong spray make sure you get that from the handheld. You'll get plenty of water volume out of the 420. But if it's the needle spray that he likes, that'll probably be up to the handheld.

Hopefully Noopd will chime in.

This post was edited by mongoct on Fri, Apr 19, 13 at 9:22

    Bookmark   April 18, 2013 at 4:50PM
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Thanks mongo,
"I don't think the shower is too large."
Are you referring to the shower head? I am assuming that you are saying that the pan will be ok with this shower head size.

Edited to refer readers to the initial post to access web page for the Hansgrohe instructions and details on this shower head

Again thanks. I don't know if DH would want to be holding a hand held to take a shower. If the hand held can be mounted along side the Raindance and aimed like a regular mounted shower head it could work. I will have to look at the measurements for mounting.

I'm thinking about the separate valves and working shower heads that you referred to on another post in the last few weeks. I could get a smaller Raindance type head and put a hand held on the wall.

I am going to go back and read your various posts I've seen on this subject. I have saved some. You wrote up a quick shower interpretation for me last year that I can refer to as well.

This post was edited by enduring on Fri, Apr 19, 13 at 9:25

    Bookmark   April 18, 2013 at 11:08PM
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thanks again for your compliment.
I just took 2 pictures to show you a little bit more of my setup so i'll put one in this reply and the other one right after.

so, a couple things.

First, I would ask if "rain shower" is something that you want. if you do, I would say get a big one (15-20") is better then get a small one (10 or less) because small one doesn't cover your whole body.

So if your answer is yes, I think this showerhead is a pretty good one for your case, since you don't want to install it on the ceiling. The reason i like this one is because for a rain shower, the "water force" is pretty decent. It's probably one of the best i have tried. I'm someone who like lots of water and used to take out water regulator when i get a shower head. But I don't have to for this one (and I dont' know if it's even possible). But since it's a rain shower, it's not gonna be as forceful as a regular shower jet.

However, If i really need the super strong water to rinse out stuff quickly, I can resort to the handheld, or the waterfall feature, which is awesome in my book.

1. Is it too big for a 3'x4'.. I don't know. I think it will be okay. It will "look" a little too big, especially if you install it on the 3' wall. but like i said. what's the point of small if you are getting a rain shower.. if you install it on the 4' wall, it will look a little more proportional, but i'm afraid the depth of the shower is not ideal, may keep bumping into the back wall when showering. I'm not worried about the showerhead being at the center of the shower pan, I think that's what it's suppose to be..

2, Your drain should be okay. the shower head (each function) is regulated to 2.5gal/min. If you do hansgrohe set, the diverter allow up to 3 functions, with simultaneous flow to 2 functions when the knob is in between two settings. So theoretically the max output is 5gal/min.

So, this showerhead will use up 2 functions.. If you don't care for the waterfall and get the one with only rainshower, you can even pick something else as your 3rd options.. like rainshower + hand shower + body spray.

3, If you are just looking at hansgrohe.. the E420 1 is the same size without the waterfall; the Rainfall Air 240 trim maybe a more "proportional size" but that one is $$$, there is also the Rainfall Air 180 trim.. these are the rainshower options. Of course if you don't care for rain shower to begin with, there are lots of other stuff you can choose. You may also look at grohe products too.

I have problem opening up your link also.. here is a link to install instructions. it has all technical details on the E420 2

I remember i had hard time finding install instructions on the hansgrohe site.. so what i usually does is go to a product page on they usually have all install manual for hansgrohe product for download.

This post was edited by noopd on Fri, Apr 19, 13 at 4:36

    Bookmark   April 19, 2013 at 4:20AM
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just one more pic with the rain shower on..

*sorry about the picture quality.. taken with very low light.. at night.

.. and good luck with your project :)

This post was edited by noopd on Fri, Apr 19, 13 at 4:25

    Bookmark   April 19, 2013 at 4:21AM
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Noopd those are great pictures. Your shower is just so tasteful. Thanks for showing the side angle too it is very helpful. It looks like you would get pretty well covered.

Yes, about the $$$$ (extra $ added) that Rainfall AIR 240 Trim is very expensive! And it is smaller and has a smaller number in its name :)

The Raindance will have to be mounted on the 3' side for reasons you stated with the problem of depth for the user if the shower was mounted on the long wall. And with the short wall mounting it will make it easier to get to the plumbing in the future if needed, through the back wall on the short wall. I mocked up a 3x4 shower space quickly at the plumbing store and again at home and it looks like it would work.

I posted the PRO hansgrohe site in my post above, which includes the product, and that page links to the instructions.

1) Do you feel like you rinse quickly with the rain function? As that is one request my DH has for a shower. See below for my DH shower statements.

2) Did anyone tell you what the life expectancy is on the shower head?

3) Did you consider placing a bar mounted hand held, up high, next to the rainshower head, so it could be used as a shower too (old fashioned shower type)?

4) OT, what size are your tiles? It looks like they are 12x24.

5) How high did you mount your shower head? I have a 6'4" son that will need to get under there. Our ceilings are 8'.

6) I see you painted your ceiling instead of tiling. Are you happy with that choice, and why or why not?

DH likes to be drenched, he does not like the water saving shower heads because he doesn't feel like he is getting rinsed off. He likes the ability to be covered in water. "I just want a simple shower with enough volume to get me rinsed off in short order". "But if you think you would want this then that is ok too."

I am going to call Hansgrohe and ask about the future for fitting other trims and shower heads to the rough-ins. I am wondering if this shower setup is too risky for our LONG term needs, unless I can be assured that I wont need to be taking out the wall in 20 years (not me, someone else) just to fit a new shower head. My goal is to get at least 60 years out of this remodel.

    Bookmark   April 19, 2013 at 8:25AM
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OK, my site address still won't work so this is the deal go the home page at:

Select Hansgrohe, to showers, to Raindance. On the Raindance page the E420 2 jet should be on the bottom row of the first page of products in this category. Again there is a link to the "Assembly Instructions" on the actual product page.

See if that will work. I will edit the above post to simplify to this route to the product.

    Bookmark   April 19, 2013 at 9:16AM
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I edited my post to correct it to "...showerhead..." and I also added the paragraph that begins with "For code purposes...".

    Bookmark   April 19, 2013 at 9:25AM
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Thanks Mongo, I just got off the phone with Hansgrohe tech and customer support. The Tech support thought it might "look" too big. I don't care much about that. it will be high and it has a slim profile. She thought otherwise it would be ok for size. I asked both the tech and customer service if they thought a 24" wall bar could be mounted with a regular hand held that could function as a showering head (not hand holding). They both thought "yes". The customer support guy said there is a "corner" mounting kit that can mount a bar in the corner if I needed to do that (but of course can't find it on their web site). So I will look into that. I am aware that these bars are not "grab bar" quality and function. The total output from the rainshower/waterfall can be 5gpm when both are on. The system I am looking at would be capable of turning 2 of the 3 outlets on at one time. I am thinking of pairing this shower head with the Club Master hand held, at the customer support person's suggestion.

THIS is "dollaring up" (a DH colloquialism) fast!

    Bookmark   April 19, 2013 at 9:38AM
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Okay, using your new pathway I was able to get to the assembly instructions.

The assembly instructions that I opened are 20 pages long, I don't see any graphs. But I think we can discard that for a few reasons.

1) The shower head is stated as a 2.5GPM showerhead. That's 2.5GPM for the waterfall effect and another 2.5GPM for the rain head function. However...

2) It specifies that the system is to be installed with the "Quattro Green" diverter, and the way they want you to plumb it prohibits you from having water flow out of the waterfall and the rainhead simultaneously. My guess is that's their way of making this 5GPM head compliant with the 2.5GPM restriction, and that's why they include the Quattro Green valve with the showerhead. To make it all compliant.

How you actually plumb it is up to you. ; )

3) I am not a plumber. But Hansgrohe's "13.2GPM" requirement for the drain might be a requirement that is sort of lost in translation. 13.2GPM does relate to the flow capacity through a 2" pipe, but not in a way that we apply it to shower drain branch lines.

I don't want to get too deep into specifics, but drain line capacities are calculated by limiting the drain pipe to a certain fill amount (roughly 50% full) and by limiting the water to a certain speed through the pipe (less than 2 feet per second). Add a 1/4" per foot pitch, and the allowable flow through a 2" pipe is 8.42gpm.

Now bring back the 2.5GPM shower head flow restriction, and the ability of a 2" drain to handle 8.42GPM reinforces the idea that code limits a 2" drain to three 2.5GPM shower heads (7.5GPM total).

Enduring, you are one to read the fine print, and that's good, I applaud you! I skimmed through the fine print in the installation instructions and saw a few "must be purchased separately" warnings, so just make sure you price out all the bits and pieces you need for this installation to prevent surprises. Additional valves, additional trim kits, etc.

With first-hand installation experience, Noopd will be a great reference.

    Bookmark   April 19, 2013 at 10:27AM
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Just read your last post, didn't see it before I posted my last one. "Dollaring up". I like that! lol

So true when it comes to valves and trim kits and...

    Bookmark   April 19, 2013 at 10:32AM
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Hey enduring,

answering your questions.

1. ya, i think this showerhead does make it feels like you get "drenched" in water and can "rinse off quickly", even if it's 2.5gpm. It's does feel somewhat like a normal shower actually when the volume valve is full on. I would say if i have the volume value only open 10%, it feels like "other" rain shower..

2. I don't know what the life expectancy is.. maybe other people in the know knows more. I haven't had a showerhead failed on me ever even the cheap ones.. and these seems to be pretty solidly built.

3. I would not consider getting a hand shower bar. First, i dont' think it matches well, but more importantly, it's not necessary. The showerhead do a good job for normal shower and there is no need to use a hand shower mount fixed at shower height.

4. ya, those are 12x24. my "shower area" not including the tub is about 5x5. but you don't need that big for enclosed. ours is not enclosed and it's open to the vanity area , which is open to the bedroom. So i need more room for water to splash around on the "deck"

5, i mount it at the recommended height per install instruction, which is at 84 5/8" from floor

6. hmm.. that's interesting. I don't think most bathroom has tile ceiling.. right? Painted ceiling is fine with me. My bathroom is part of my bedroom so there even less reason to do anything different. I have tiled ceiling in my guest bathroom but that's becuase i have a steam sauna in it. Other than that, I don't think you need to tile the ceiling.

you probably already know this showerhead use the hansgrohe iBox universal rough, so any other hansgrohe head that use the same ibox rough will work in the future if you want to change it.

    Bookmark   April 19, 2013 at 3:40PM
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Noopd, thank you so much for your feedback!

Now, regarding item #6, what kind of wall material do you have on the ceiling; is it dry wall or cement board? I can't imagine that cement board is paintable though.

What kind of paint did you use? I was planning on using BM Aura Bath & Spa on my paintable surfaces.

    Bookmark   April 19, 2013 at 4:47PM
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I forgot what kind of paint i used.. I dont' think I used anything specifically for bathroom, just a regular paint, with eggshell flat finish.. In an enlosed bathroom, you should probably use something that is ok for bathroom just to be safe. I had two vent fan (one in shower area and one in toilet (there is cutout opening in the toilet closet to allow air flow, which can be seen in my photos), so moisture is not a big problem for me when the fans are on.

    Bookmark   April 19, 2013 at 6:57PM
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I saw the ceiling vent fan in your picture and wondered what that other room was. Now I see. My bathroom will have one fan and the room is 8x8 approx. I think the one fan will work. I do not have any separate areas other than the glass panel shower door that will be in the shower inclosure. The shower will be enclosed on 3 of the 4 sides. I assume that one fan will evacuate the shower steam, exiting the gap at the top of the doors and into the exhaust fan several feet away.

I plan to use Aura Bath & Spa form Benjamin Moore. I like smooth finishes so will have a smooth texture to the walls and ceilings. I have not decided about tiling the ceiling in the shower. I would like to do this but I don't know if I am capable of doing it. I will be tiling myself with the help as needed from my DH or DS. I think the grouting of the ceiling could be very hard.

    Bookmark   April 20, 2013 at 12:42PM
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oh ya.. i get it now.. I think if your enclosure is floor to ceiling, then you should tile it.. if your glass enclosure is not floor to ceiling, and there is a gap, then it's optional. tiling it may look better but not everyone do it.

    Bookmark   April 20, 2013 at 1:49PM
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Thanks so much for all your help on this subject. You've been great.

Yes, a gap but not a large gap because I will get a taller glass shower door to accommodate the high mounted head and my high mounted 6'4" kid. Who might be the resident in the future. A nephew who is 6'-6" has a regular shower, and because he is so tall he throws water around on the walls above his shower surround, causing water damage.

I will plan on tiling the ceiling then. I can see it now, stilts holding my work into place, like an image several months ago on GW; bowing long pieces of what looked like long strips of plywood:)

I am in the midst of tracking down tile and a remnant stone for a counter. Was hoping for a calcutta gold but there wont be enough left I've heard. So there is a really white carrara waiting for me in the wings I hope. I am going to make a farmhouse type soapstone sink to fit into the counter and elevated above the counter, about an inch or 2. I want to give an impression of intersecting plains. I am striving for a more contemporary look than my first bathroom. The final choice of counter will depend on the look with my soapstone, as that is a given. It is a very quiet piece of stone that looks fabulous with walnut, as there are quiet walnut colored spots throughout the stone.

    Bookmark   April 20, 2013 at 2:39PM
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Noopd, is your handheld also in the Hansgrohe Axor Urquiola line? That's the one I like - very slim and elegant looking. Do you know whether the raindance showerhead has a longer reaching arm (from the wall) available? We plan to use a curbless design so this rainhead intrigues me, but I might want it to reach further into the shower than yours. Thanks!

    Bookmark   April 22, 2013 at 1:55AM
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Shower Outlet and porter (Axor Urquiola):

When I ordered the hand shower, I ordered the Starck 2 jet handshower, but they are the same as the 2 jet handshower under "Urquiola" too.. I think its' a non - designer specific item in the axor line.

They comes in one or two jet. on the 2-get, With a twist the water can come out with shower spray on the side, or from the tip. When waters comes from the tip, they comes out like a single stream / vanity faucet (not strong)

I don't think a longer arm is available but you can call them to make sure.. If you want to reach more into the center maybe a ceiling mounted rain shower is better option?

    Bookmark   April 22, 2013 at 7:56PM
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Here is a YouTube video that shows the Hansgrohe Raindance e420 2jet installed. Unfortunately it does not show it operating :( But the stall is similar in width to what I would be using; a 3x4 kohler cast iron pan. So this just might work, thoughts?

Here is a link that might be useful: HansGrohe - Raindance E Air - Hoofddouche 420 2jet met douchearm

This post was edited by enduring on Wed, Apr 24, 13 at 23:08

    Bookmark   April 24, 2013 at 11:06PM
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Hey, enduring,

just wondering how your bathroom reno turn out? do u have an update? :)

    Bookmark   July 17, 2013 at 7:55PM
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Hi there noopd! You are very timely I must say. I am now at the stage where all this plumbing needs to be installed.

Plans underway. Carpenter finished the walls and installed a small window into my windowless room. I enlarged the space to accommodate a 3x5' pan instead of the original plan for a 3x4' pan. I like this much better. I have all the plumping fixtures on site but not installed.
Plan View:

North Elevation, there will be cabinet changes from what is shown here:

South Elevation, again, there are some changes compared to this drawing:

1) Raindance E 420 AIR 2-Jet Showerhead w/ Showerarm.
2) iBox rough-ins x2ea #01850181 (one for the Raindance E 240 & one for the diverter area)
3) Quattro 3-Way Diverter#15930181 to enable 2 shower functions at a time. (not the "Green" version which only serves one function at a time I believe, THANKS MONGOCT!)
4) Ecostat S/E Thermostatic Trim w/ Volume Control #04352000.
5) Ecostat S/E Trio/ Quattro Trim #04354000.
6) Axor Urquiola Face Cloth Hooks x2ea.
7) Grab bars horizontal bar on long side of shower, and a vertical one at entry to shower
8) Kohler cast iron 3x5' Salient shower pan with center drain in Ice Gray.

other details in the rooom:
1) Axor Citterio M Single-Hole Sink Faucet, 8.25" tall with handle up/on.
2) Toto Maris floor mounted toilet.
3) Walnut cabinets, vanity and pocket doors.
4) 12x24 tile floor with floor warming system.
5) Stacked Miele W/D
6) Soapstone sink that I will make (I made another sink for my first BR remodel)

Other things that are going in is a Fantech system - 2 vents w/lights and a remote 170cfm fan in the attic. One vent will be located in the shower and another near the W/D stack which is near the toilet.

Tile that looks like marble 12x24" to the ceiling and wrapped around partial wall into W/D cabinet area. I will be doing the tile, I am nervous about this though. But I have done other tile jobs that are much more complex in layout. I am concerned about the size. I have a leveling system that I will use to help with keeping the tiles flat. It is called Tornado I think.

Niche will be installed into the shower space. I am planning on putting it below the shower head and above the shower controls. This is the "cleanest" looking space in my opinion. But I can be convinced otherwise :) Plumber will have to plumb accordingly.

Approximation of my materials, the colors might be off a bit due to lighting, and the porcelain marble ended up another brand then shown:

    Bookmark   July 18, 2013 at 2:28PM
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My Toto Maris toilet:

    Bookmark   July 18, 2013 at 2:30PM
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How exciting. Love how you are so organized with all your "ducks in a row" in advance. I made several decisions while in progress and some didn't turn out so good. None were expensive but still not a good way to go.

I'm sure this is going to be on stunning bathroom. Can't wait to see it when it is finished.

    Bookmark   July 18, 2013 at 2:44PM
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