Multi-part appliance questions.....

DSK1967March 24, 2012

Hi All,

We're doing a major renovation, and will be looking for a rangetop, wall oven, dishwasher etc.

Right now we're at the following point-

1) 48" built in stainless, Subzero looking like the winner but we saw a Kitchenaid 48" stainless for a lot less that looked pretty good ..... any thoughts?

2) 36" 6 burner gas rangetop - Wolf was looking like the leader, but we saw a long post on Bluestar .... just visited an appliance store in NJ and they were pushing American Range brand .... anyone have any experience/opinion on this?

3) DW a Meile or Bosch .... thinking about putting a second in the island but still unsure

4) Wall oven, with microwave/speed oven combo. No idea here, would love some feedback from the GW community - if you were going to start from scratch, what brand would you go with, and why. We don't want a double oven.

5) Anything else appliance wise you can think of to help us in our decisions would be appreciated!

Thanks so much,

Dave

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deeageaux

1) Sub-Zero,at least in the US,is the most prestigous and arguably the best.The others in this class are just as expensive. The styling is iconic. Their new ultra-violet air scrubber is pretty cool. The only reason to get the KA is to save money.KA is a fine refrigerator.

2) I would just look at Bluestar or Capital Culinarian for rangetop. The only series worth looking at for American Range is the Performer Series.And they don't have rangetops for the Performer Series yet.

3)Bosch DWers are good but Miele is better. It depends on how much you are willing to spend. The harder the water you feed the Miele DW the larger the disparity in performance.If you have 35 gpg water then,obviously,you need a whole house water softner because the little one in the DW is not going to help much. Given soft water,I still prefer the Miele for peformance and longterm durability but disparity not as great.

4)Speed ovens are toaster oven/quarter oven size,even the 30" wide ones. Are you sure you want a speed oven as your only oven?

5) For garbage disposal I am a fan of Waste King 9980. IF you do get Insinkerator get 1 hp. I have not hear good things about Chinese 1.25 hp disposals available at Costco et al.

    Bookmark   March 25, 2012 at 12:07AM
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Mistman

We're building new and have also been doing the research. I was all set on the BS, even got a couple color samples. In the end I went w/the 36" AR Performer w/griddle. I like that it's ruggedly simple, looks very nice, also comes in colors (though I decided against color), has open burners that seem relatively simple to clean, comes w/multiple BTU outputs, 2 25K, 1 18k and a 12k, the 6 burner has 3 25k, 2 18 and the 12. The burners pop off and it's got a nice stainless tray to catch spills. Going KA Counter depth, getting the Bosch 800 (quietest in the US :)), we've got one in our current home and love it. Decided on the 30" Advantium 240 speed oven, I think it's probably as good as any out there now. I figure the big oven will be used primarily for savory dishes and meat (broiling, braising, baking, roasting, etc...) and I want an electric for baking (I do a lot of pies, muffins, cupcakes, cheesecake, and love bread pudding), I was thinking of going steam but they seem rather small or very expensive so am just going to go w/a 30" Dacor convection below the Advantium. There really aren't that many options for convection/speed combo's, E-lux has one, I think KA has one (they also have a 30" steam but it's too iffy right now). If we would have had a BlueStar dealer local that wanted to sell us a range we probably would have done that but our guy was more interested in showing us everything else.
That's just what I came up with and feel pretty good about it, we haven't purchased everything yet but pretty sure we're set on those one.
MM

    Bookmark   March 25, 2012 at 12:29AM
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chef_dupre

Just wanted to share my experience with one item recommended here.
Given my sampling size is one, this may not be statistically significant, but, the Waste King 9980 my plumber went to install last week in my new kitchen leaked out everywhere. In 20+ years, he'd never seen anything like it. As we were time crunched DW went out on his recommendation and got an Insinkerator 1hp.
As Murphy (and his law) has driven the remodeling bus so far...
ymmv

    Bookmark   March 25, 2012 at 12:57AM
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DSK1967

Hi, thanks for the responses.....

We're defintely looking for a wall oven convection regular size, with either a micro/conv combo or speed oven, don't think we're going with 2 full size wall ovens with a separate micro elsewhere .... not feeling a need for a warming drawer ..... we got an insinkerator evolution excel 1.0 HP very excited about that never had a garbage disposal before.

Just don't want to make a 'bad' decision, ie I got the gist from this thread that Viking isn't a great choice .... and its hard to fully trust an appliance salesman if you know what I MEAN.

Thanks!
Dave

    Bookmark   March 25, 2012 at 12:54PM
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wekick

There is no "best" appliance, but one that meets your needs the best. A book that really was helpful for us in design was Don Silvers' "Kitchen Design with Cooking in Mind". We actually did put our microwave away from the "cooking" area because we use it mostly to reheat. His idea was this keeps the reheaters(in our case kids) out of the way of the cooks. It is still accessible but out of the immediate range/oven area. He has some different, practical ideas.

1. KA vs SZ We seriously considered all of the 48" built ins we could find and really liked the SZ for the way it is made, but ended up with the KA because I liked the lay out better. I like where the ice maker was and the fact that my 9x13 pans fit front to back in the KA. It has been OK-no mechanical issues so far but the fit and finish is not as nice. One door sticks out about .25 inches and at the time it could not be fixed because the gaskets were made wrong.

2. With burners, it depends on how and what you cook. We thought we wanted BS, but there were service and ignitor issues at the time. We ended up with the dual stacked sealed burners(Wolf). I thought we would be "settling" with a Wolf but it has done everything I wanted and more. If my priority was to do a lot of stir frying or needed to heating large pots fast, then I would consider CC or BS. I have no trouble stir frying for 2 or searing steaks and never have my burners cranked all the way. I do like the fact that all my burners go way below simmer to just warm. We entertain large groups frequently and this past weekend we kept some disposable catering size pans(across two burners) full of pasta warm with absolutely no scorching. There is a lot written on the difference between the BS and CC so I will leave it to you to read about them. There is much debate about one cooking more evenly than the other but no legitimate science behind any claims. I think it will depend on the relationship of pan size, shape, composition, burner size and configuration and what you are cooking-- so again no one answer. I would be interested to see what Capital does with sealed burners. Dual stacked?

3. Bosch vs Miele- I like the Miele except I could not see myself placing the silverware piece by piece in the rack. We bought the Bosch (800 series) and have been happy with that. One of my kids just received a gift of a Bosch lower # series and likes it but hasn't had it long.

4. We have an regular Electrolux oven and love it. It has a third element but not a pure convection mode, but it bakes very evenly and preheats very quickly. We also have a Wolf oven(our range) and love it too. It does have a pure convection mode but I never use it because it bakes so evenly. It does have 2 fans which I believe to be a benefit. Some like an oven with all rolling racks but I like it just on the bottom and regular racks above because I frequently change them around. If you in anyway consider Dacor, I would read this forum and any reviews you can find. We had a bad experience with them a few years ago. Hopefully they have improved.

As far as disposal, my son is a plumber and reads the plumbing forums and he put 1 HP Insinkerator Evolutions in my kitchen. We've had them 5 years and they are trouble free. Consider an air switch for this.

I would look at the "kitchens" forum on this site for all kinds of good ideas(lighting,plug mold, coutertops etc).

    Bookmark   March 25, 2012 at 2:33PM
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deeageaux

For standard convection oven.

1)Gaggenau
2)Wolf L-Series
3)Wolf E-Series
4)Electrolux for budget choice.

For speed oven I would go with GE Profile Advantium Series PSB2200N.

It has largest capacity,third heating type from light bulb,and cheapest price.

Yes, there is close to zero verifiable repeatable scientifically valid evidence to prove one appliance better than the other. If we did we would have nothing to talk,discuss,debate about. If we did have such scientific data we could just look at the results and buy the best at the price we were willing to pay.

The best alternative is the collective experience and consensus of this board.

Or if you prefer,buy what Consumer Reports tell you to.

    Bookmark   March 26, 2012 at 1:49AM
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kaseki

One thing Waste King does well, in my opinion, but you have to pay for it, is supply a fiber-optic disposal control. The FO design has a smaller, flatter footprint on the countertop than an air switch, and includes an automatic shutdown after 20 seconds. I wondered at first whether that would be annoying, but it is helpful overall, I think.

Buttons are available in quite a few colors and trims. They have a high list price, but are heavily discounted at some sites on the web.

kas

    Bookmark   March 26, 2012 at 9:31AM
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wekick

Posted by deeageaux (My Page) on
Mon, Mar 26, 12 at 1:49
Yes, there is close to zero verifiable repeatable scientifically valid evidence to prove one appliance better than the other. If we did we would have nothing to talk,discuss,debate about. If we did have such scientific data we could just look at the results and buy the best at the price we were willing to pay.
The best alternative is the collective experience and consensus of this board.

I was just speaking to the unvalidated claims as to being the most even heating, but you miss the point --even if you could prove current claims about what appliance has the highest BTUs, lowest BTUs, most even oven, best broiler etc there would not be agreement about what is the most important so no agreement on the "best" appliance. There would still be debate.

Yes, I agree, our actual experiences are the most valuable thing about this forum. We can only say what a given appliance does for us personally but not what is best for all others or what someone else's experience is. This concept applies to religion, politics and appliances. Unfortunately there are not many who have owned and cooked consistently on more than one of the ranges/ovens frequently discussed so it is hard to make comparisons, especially considering how many different brands are available. Believe it or not, some draw conclusions and make recommendations or trash appliances they have never even owned or used on a consistent basis. Fortunately most people do try to give a fair, honest report of their use of appliances in the context of what is important to them. When I hear both the advantages and disadvantages from a person, their review carries more credibility for me.

As far as "consensus"--the concept, if it could be obtained, ignores what is best for the individual. We don't all have to get the same appliance!
Most of the talk or "consensus" on this board settles around the highest BTU burner in the $5-10,000, upper mid priced market. It is good that these types of ranges are available for those who want them but in the scheme of things, this is just one very small portion of the market and addresses only one dimension of cooking. 99% of people I know who are great cooks just don't want to spend that kind of money or put a priority on that kind of burner or an oven in the higher price points for that matter. Almost all cooking can be and is done on a smaller burner for a lot less money. Nobody talks about these appliances much on this forum and if they all did the consensus would shift!

Or if you prefer,buy what Consumer Reports tell you to.

I think they leave considerations out that I think are important but it might be a starting point for some. They get some things right.

    Bookmark   March 26, 2012 at 10:03PM
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deeageaux

there would not be agreement about what is the most important so no agreement on the "best" appliance. There would still be debate.

This easily goes off on an existential tangent and debate about semantics. Yes people who like to argue could argue what is the color of the sky or how many angles can dance on the head of a pin.

For the rest of us we could use common definitions,typical requirements and wants, and come to a consensus on what is best in class. Or maybe what are the best two or three in class.

I advised today on Samsung vs KA fridge,in the past on Frigidaire or GE range, and today on $100K Molteni range.

We don't all have to get the same appliance!

Well no kidding. Nobody is required to log on,read my post or anyone else's. I don't give the same exact advice to everyone,nor do many of the senior posters on GW.

In fact I usually ask for a budget and fit my recommendations under or just over. I have done that for members that ask for $3k packages as well as $100k packages.

this is just one very small portion of the market and addresses only one dimension of cooking.

It addresses a large portion of the market here on GW appliance forum and addresses more than one dimension of cooking.

Nobody talks about these appliances much on this forum and if they all did the consensus would shift!

Nobody talks much about those appliances because there is not a huge amount of differences among them. You argue the very concept of consensus then predict it's shift?

I think they leave considerations out that I think are important but it might be a starting point for some. They get some things right.

Isn't just about every option right for some? They get some things right? A broken clock is right twice a day.

    Bookmark   March 26, 2012 at 10:34PM
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