Maybe I can't have a BS rangetop after all...

PeterH2March 2, 2012

As long-term readers of this forum will know, I have been vacillating between the BS and CC rangetops for our planned kitchen remodel.

One little detail I had missed until just yesterday was a detail in the BS installation instructions: base cabinets either side of the rangetop must not be more than 24" deep. Since we plan 27" deep cabinets, that would seem to eliminate BS (unless we resort to extreme measures bumping the wall out behind the rangetop). But is it really true? I'm not sure why they would have that limitation?

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weedmeister

Bump the wall out? How about move the range out?

    Bookmark   March 2, 2012 at 3:29PM
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Fori is not pleased

Just have a strip of countertop behind it. Space for handles and a salt pig.

    Bookmark   March 2, 2012 at 4:40PM
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aliris19

What fori said -- no big deal; definitely not a deal-breaker.

    Bookmark   March 2, 2012 at 4:48PM
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lannie59

Why are the base cabinets so deep. Any appliance whether it is a DW, ice machine, under counter refrig, micro,or wall oven will not require this deep of cabinet. That would also make for a lot of pullout inserts and long drawer slides if you take advantage of the extra depth. Are these manufactured or custom built cabinets? Regardless you can build a false wall and even cover it with a fireproof material if you want and slide the range to it and then run your counter behind the range. You don't want the oven door recessed into your cabinets.

    Bookmark   March 2, 2012 at 7:13PM
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willtv

Peter,
My guess is that Bluestar doesn't want the front of the base cabs to exceed the front of the rangetop as this will create a fire hazard and, more likely than not, will be against code.
Fori's suggestion will certainly take care of the problem.
Try calling Bluestar to ask them.

    Bookmark   March 2, 2012 at 7:18PM
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jasperdog

This will most likely be true of any range top, not just Blue Star.

    Bookmark   March 2, 2012 at 11:41PM
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ak0402

Yes, what Jasperdog said. And what Willtv said. No range or rangetop can have exposed cabinetry next to it, or it creates a fire hazard. This is not isolated to BS. The Culinarian rangetops are 23-1/8" deep. So, with your 27" deep cabinets, if you don't put a non-combustible filler behind the Culinarian to bring it proud of the cabinets, you would have almost 4" of exposed combustible cabinetry on either side of it. And, as Fori said, you just put a strip of countertop (if you are using stone counters) or a strip of stainless steel behind the rangetop. Your countertop fabricator, if at all experienced, has done this many times. Looks like you will need some other reason to help you decide between BS and CC rangetops.

    Bookmark   March 3, 2012 at 1:04AM
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ak0402

Pics for you. Notice how the range/rangetops stick out from the cabinetry. That's so the combustible cabinetry is not exposed to open flame.

BTW, your hood should be deeper too. Given your 27" deep cabinets, you don't want a hood that is so shallow, it's only capturing the smoke from the back burners. You can either buy a 27" deep hood, or buy a shallower hood, and stick something behind it to bring it out from the wall.

    Bookmark   March 3, 2012 at 1:26AM
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cottonpenny

I'm getting a BS rangetop too.

My cabinets on either side are 24", so not a problem. I wanted to pull the cabinet below the range out a few inches so it didn't look like it was cantilevered. Is this possible?

    Bookmark   March 3, 2012 at 8:46AM
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billy_g

The CC rangetop can be bumped out from the back wall. Mine is, and there is a 1 or 1-1/2 inch strip of countertop behind it. It has no island trim. I wanted the space behind the rangetop to pull the burners away from the backsplash, and to allow more room for pots on the rear burners.

OK, the real reason is we had to pull the rangetop forward to get everything to work right in the cabinetry and I like it this way.

Billy

    Bookmark   March 3, 2012 at 9:48AM
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ak0402

Cottonpenny - if I am understanding your post correctly, I think it will look strange to have a base cabinet sticking out from the cabinets on either side of it by a few inches. I don't really understand your objection to the rangetop overhanging its base cabinet by about an inch ("cantilevered" in your words). That's the traditional appearance of a rangetop. It sounds like you would be happier with the appearance of a drop-in cooktop instead, so consider changing your appliance choice from rangetop to cooktop.

    Bookmark   March 3, 2012 at 11:22AM
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marcolo

Lots of people bump out rangetop cabinets, and some bump out sinks. It looks good. Order your cab with finished sides so you can try it out.

    Bookmark   March 3, 2012 at 7:39PM
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cottonpenny

Akchicago - no, I don't want it to look like a cooktop. I want it to look more like a range, which would be the same depth counter to floor.

Marcolo - thanks!

    Bookmark   March 3, 2012 at 11:04PM
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PeterH2

@akchicago - Actually, the CC rangetop can be installed all the way back against the wall in a 27" deep cabinet (per their installation diagram). That said, if we go the CC route, we were planning to pull the rangetop forward about 2" (so it's just a bit more inset into the counter than it would be with a 24" deep cabinet), for the same reasons as @BillyG.

As to the reason given by some in this thread for the restriction: "so the base cabinets are not exposed to open flame", that is just silly. The flames are completely enclosed by a lot of metal, and they are well above counter level - there is no way that there are flames shooting out of the sides of a rangetop. If this were a range, it would be a very different story - the intense burst of heat when you open the oven door might easily damage/char adjacent cabinets over time. I suspect that BS just went with identical instructions for both ranges and rangetops, which make their life easier, but mine harder (because I actually don't want to pull the rangetop that far forward.

We had originally expected to pull the BS rangetop out by a couple of inches; our concern was that the island trim would look really strange with only a small gap between it and the wall; the first photo @akchicago linked to shows that is not the case - it looks just fine.

Now I have to look into the implications of having the BS rangetop pulled out an extra inch beyond what we planned, in terms of clearance for the top drawers of the base cabinets at 90 degrees to the run with the rangetop (which will be in the base of a "U"). If the worst comes to the worst, we can make a those drawers shallower to avoid clashes.

    Bookmark   March 4, 2012 at 3:42PM
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shannonplus2

As to the reason given by some in this thread for the restriction: "so the base cabinets are not exposed to open flame", that is just silly. The flames are completely enclosed by a lot of metal, and they are well above counter level - there is no way that there are flames shooting out of the sides of a rangetop.

Wow. Have you ever cooked with a high-btu flame? Hey, it's your house, your family, your life, and clearly, you're very confident in your knowledge.

Also, it sounds like you won't have to pass a Building Code inspection, with a rangetop inset on each side by 3" of cabinetry.

It sounds like you've made your mind up for the CC, based on your dismissal of BS' installation instructions which were to "make their life easier and mine harder". It has to be due solely to a lack of effort on BS's part to change a few sentences in their instructions to how you think it should read.

Could it be that BS has other motivation besides laziness - such as UL requirements, litigation concerns, or plain knowledge about how best to install their equipment? If you'd prefer the CC, fine. But you're wrong about BS' reason for those instructions.

    Bookmark   March 4, 2012 at 5:00PM
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PeterH2

@shannonplus2 - your post grossly distorts/misrepresents what I posted. I found it insulting and offensive. I don't know what kicks you get from being gratuitously rude to complete strangers, but please take your attitude elsewhere.

We are discussing a rangetop, not a range, and we are talking about the base cabinets, not the upper cabinets. The burner heads on a rangetop do not send flames out sideways below the counter top. The flames can never get anywhere near where the base cabinets are.

"it's your house, your family, your life" & "it sounds like you won't have to pass a Building Code inspection" - where exactly do you see me saying I plan to do anything other than follow the manufacturer's instructions to the letter?

"It sounds like you've made your mind up" - go back and read the last two paragraphs of my previous post, saying I thought the BS looks fine pulled forward and all I have to figure out is whether I need to alter a couple of drawers to make it work.

    Bookmark   March 4, 2012 at 6:05PM
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shannonplus2

Where did I say "range" or "upper cabinets"? This thread is about your 27" base cabinets and rangetop installation. I did not distort what you wrote. I quoted you verbatim. You used the word "silly" in response to several posters' concerns over combustibility of nearby cabinets. I disagree with your statement, which I reprinted in italics, as well as your statement that BS' instructions were to make their life easier and your life harder.

According to the NFPA, cooking fires are the #1 cause of home fires and home fire injuries. Cooking equipment, most often a range or stovetop, is the leading cause of reported home structure fires and home fire injuries in the United States. These fires accounted for 42% of all reported home structure fires and 37% of home civilian injuries.

It is too bad you took what I wrote as insulting, rather than my concern about a house fire. I regret I chastised you about your attitude towards the advice here.

I am terribly sorry you feel the way you do, and that you are so wrapped up in your rangetop choice that fire warnings you name as either rude or silly.

    Bookmark   March 4, 2012 at 6:41PM
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PeterH2

@shannonplus2,

I have no objection to you posting warnings about safety, it's the sarcastic and accusatory tone you adopted that I found so offensive.

Here you go doing it again:

"I am terribly sorry ... that you are so wrapped up in your rangetop choice"

Please stop presuming to know what I am thinking. It is intensely annoying. Yet again, you are wrong.

Let me make this crystal clear: everything we do in our kitchen remodel will conform to code and the manufacturer's instructions, and will be inspected. Beyond that, I am extremely conscious of safety issues, and well equipped by education, training, and experience to identify them. In fact I frequently go beyond what is technically required ("over-engineer") if I think there is a safety hazard. Take the time to search for some of my other postings here and you will see I have frequently warned people of safety hazards.

The fact remains that the base cabinets will not experience flames or heat from a rangetop's burners, no matter how deep those cabinets are or how the rangetop is positioned horizontally within them. Thus, the claim that the installation limitation are to prevent exposure to flames are obviously wrong - there must be some other reason. As someone who has worked in a variety of engineering environments, I can tell you that it's highly possible that the restriction is simply a lazy/unconsidered duplication of that for the ranges; it's also possible there is some good and valid reason. If I need to know, I will ask Blue Star, and - if necessary - get a covering letter allowing me to vary the installation.

    Bookmark   March 7, 2012 at 11:58AM
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marcolo

Is there a place online that shows a CC range top can be inset into cabinets? The only pdf I found online shows that it can be installed with the control panel flush with base cabinets.

    Bookmark   March 7, 2012 at 1:39PM
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PeterH2

@marcolo asked: "Is there a place online that shows a CC range top can be inset into cabinets?"

Not that I am aware of. The CC instructions show that it can be installed in either a 24" deep cabinet or a 27" deep base cabinet (and, by inference, any depth in between).

The CC instructions don't explicitly say that it cannot be installed inset with zero clearance to adjacent base cabinets; getting that through inspection without a letter from Capital might be a challenge, though. Throw 3" of flush filler either side before the deeper cabinets and I'd expect to pass inspection (ditto the BS). The filler would also allow blending the counter edge cleanly.

Of course, one can simply pull the rangetop forward so it is still flush, as discussed above. Doing that also permits deeper upper cabinets (the limiting distance is the back of the rangetop to the front of the upper cabinet including door).

Back on the original topic, my impression is that the BS rangetop might not actually be inset if installed in a 27" deep cabinet (meaning that the alleged exposed flammable surfaces on adjacent base cabinets would not exist), but I haven't measured that to make sure.

    Bookmark   March 7, 2012 at 2:05PM
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billy_g

PeterH2,

You should have no problem, if I understand you correctly.

We pulled our CC rangetop out away from the backsplash and we have about 1" of countertop between the backsplash and the back of the rangetop. This gives us room for bigger pots, for putting a baking pan against the backsplash to catch splashes that we want to keep off the marble, and it works very well. Don't forget your backsplash material and thinset will subtract 1/2 inch or so from the space behind the CC. And definitely don't forget to pull out your hood to AT LEAST 27 inches. We could have gone 28 or 29 easily.

Photos below.

Billy

    Bookmark   March 7, 2012 at 4:41PM
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cottonpenny

Billy - YUM!! (Both the pretty kitchen and the paella)

    Bookmark   March 7, 2012 at 6:47PM
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ucgal

I'm craving Paella and have the urge to say "What me worry?".
Love the pictures, Billy.

    Bookmark   March 7, 2012 at 7:00PM
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PeterH2

@billy_g - directions to your house, please - we will be round on Saturday evening at 7:00 PM sharp! :)

    Bookmark   March 7, 2012 at 7:35PM
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billy_g

"What, Me Worry" is right! After all we went through during the renovation I put Alfred E Neumann on top of the hood and told DW I would remove him when everything is done. I think he'll be there for a long time!

Billy

    Bookmark   March 7, 2012 at 7:43PM
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tyguy

Nice kitchen billy. Love the cabinets.

    Bookmark   March 7, 2012 at 11:09PM
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billy_g

Thanks, tvguy. I owe the folks on the Kitchen forum a detailed thread about the kitchen because I learned so much from them and their great ideas.

Billy

    Bookmark   March 8, 2012 at 12:14AM
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davidahn

Damn, Billy, how big is that paella pan? 22"? Looks like you could cook that over 4 burners!

    Bookmark   March 8, 2012 at 1:07AM
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