Help with noisy Miele Diamond?

reutersMarch 7, 2014

We purchased a Miele Diamond dishwasher about 2 months ago and are looking for some sage advice. Our two goals were (a) excellent cleaning and (b) very, very quiet. We've been impressed by the cleaning results and love the racks. However, I've been disappointed with the noise level, which is why I am posting here. I don't have a sound meter, but when the dishwasher is running, you can hear the water splashing around in every room on the first floor, including the bathroom with the door is closed. When I'm sitting on the coach in the living room to which the kitchen opens, I find the noise distracting. Here are all the facts that I can think to share:

* It is the Diamond G5915SCi with the stainless steel panel provided by Miele.

* We had a Miele-certified plumber install it in the 24" space that was previously occupied by a 12-year old Kitchenaid. It is installed in an island, between two cabinets.

* We had a Miele technician verify that the unit was installed properly and working as intended. He wouldn't comment on the sound level but said that the "tones" were typical. He added that I was not the first person to complain about the sound level, and that he has seen people put cloth or spray insulation around their dishwashers before. He discouraged me from using spray foam but encouraged me to experiment with cloth or solid foam insulation.

* I listened to the Diamond in the Miele showroom in Wellesley. You can definitely hear it running (at least when it is empty), but it still seemed a lot quieter than our unit. The only obvious difference is that the front of the model in the showroom is covered by a wooden door panel, whereas we have the controls on the top and then the stainless steel panel provided by Miele immediately below.

* I spoke to a kitchen designer yesterday who installs a lot of Miele dishwashers in clients kitchens and has one at home. She told me that she has never had anyone complain about the sound level of a Miele before and that she has never had anyone install additional insulation around the dishwasher. She encouraged me to get someone else out to take a look at the installation.

* We had a Bosch 800 in our previous home, which I remember as being much quieter than the Diamond because I would occasionally open it while it was running. The back of that unit faced an external wall. I also remember the unit being covered in a thick blanket when it was installed. The Miele had no such covering.

* We still have about three weeks to decide it we want Miele to take the unit back and buy whatever Bosch's quietest unit is. I'd like to make the Miele work and so would my wife.

* I recently noticed that there is an opening on the bottom of the Miele stainless steel panel, where there is at least 7 inches of empty space. Is there supposed to be insulation underneath the Miele-provided panel? A lot of the sound that I hear seems to be coming through the door.

Any advice is much appreciated.

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"We had a Miele-certified plumber install it in the 24" space that was previously occupied by a 12-year old Kitchenaid. It is installed in an island, between two cabinets."

Since the previous opening was 24" to accommodate the KA, did the installer use Miele filler strips to seal the dishwasher to the cabinets? If not, that could be the sound source as the Miele is narrower than the KA.

    Bookmark   March 7, 2014 at 3:57PM
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Thanks for the reply, Mark!

There are gray rubber strips on the left and right that extend from the edge of the dishwasher to the edge of the cabinet.

I did not learn about the filler strips that Miele sells for $60 or so until after the installation, so we do not have them. When I asked the technician and guy in the appliance store whether these strips would help, they both said no, which surprised me. I'll see if I can get the appliance store to retroactively install them for a reasonable price.

Do you (or any other kind readers) have any idea whether it is possible to add any/more insulation behind the stainless steel panel that Miele provides? I can't find anything helpful in any of the manuals.

    Bookmark   March 7, 2014 at 4:33PM
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I would bet that the fillers would help. I have a Diamond and it is practically silent. My cabinets are new though and were measured for the Miele, so I probably don't have the filler strips. But I agree that if you have a larger space, you should get the fillers.

    Bookmark   March 7, 2014 at 6:12PM
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Did you use the rubber bumper or a wood panel under the DW.
Initially, we had the rubber bumper but I had the GC put in matching wood.
It is much quieter with the rubber bumper and might have him switch it back and velcro the wood on top of it.

    Bookmark   March 7, 2014 at 9:01PM
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nycbluedevil: I'll definitely look into the filler strips. Thanks for seconding the earlier recommendation.

a2gemini: The dishwasher is installed on the same oak flooring that we have in the rest of the kitchen. By rubber bumper, do you mean something like rubber tile flooring? If rubber bumpers came with the dishwasher, the installer never mentioned them to me.

    Bookmark   March 7, 2014 at 9:34PM
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Miele dws require a 23-5/8" opening, not 24" and that makes a difference. A sheet of plywood could have been added to the inside of the cabinet prior to installation with some type of face framing material. Ikea plinth might be a good possibility if the fillers don't serve.

    Bookmark   March 8, 2014 at 7:51AM
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The bumper would be the kick plate

    Bookmark   March 8, 2014 at 1:22PM
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a2gemini: I'm an idiot. Thanks for clearing that up. I spent time trying to find a thin 24" by 24" rubber tile that I could put under the dishwasher and then got worried that it would be impossible to slide the dishwasher back onto the rubber flooring. To answer your question, I'm using the plastic bumper that came with the unit. I would have expected a wooden bumper to have better sound blocking properties than a thin plastic one, so I appreciate hearing about your experience.

roccogurl: Thanks. I told the salesman that I was willing to pony up for the Diamond because I wanted a very quiet dishwasher and told him that it was going to be replacing an old Kitchenaid. He didn't mention the difference in size (and I didn't know to ask about the filler strips), but later told me that this was the first Diamond that he sold that wasn't going into new custom cabinets, which probably are built 23-5/8" wide.

    Bookmark   March 8, 2014 at 9:24PM
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reuters -- you likely know this already but today, every appliance comes with a specification sheet -- schematics that provide installation requirements for each appliance. These are on the manufacturer's site & every site that sells a product. Free download.

Downloads are the only way to separate marketing from function.

The salesman at your dealer isn't very smart or isn't very good. His lack of familiarity with installation requirements for the dishwasher is what caused your issue and, sad to say, it isn't uncommon.

The first thing out of his mouth when he sold you the machine should have been that it requires a slightly smaller opening than the Kenmore and that the existing cabinet needs alteration. You could have easily had someone come in and do that. Just like telling you the dw needs an electric outlet under the sink.

It has nothing to do with new or custom cabinets. It's an installation issue.

When I bought my new Miele washer & dryer last year, the salesman asked me a series of questions and made sure I knew that I needed a different outlet for the new machine than the one I had. He had me send him photos of my set up to be sure I had both hot and cold water inflow. I was able to have the electrician in to make the modification prior to the installation. Download told us where the outlet needed to go.

The KD who did my first kitchen ignored the download, which I provided to her, and didn't properly supervise the installation. So my dw has the gap you have and we can hear it throughout the house.

It wasn't worth removing the dw to alter and it's 10 y.o. now and so reliable and good, noise is the least of it.

    Bookmark   March 9, 2014 at 9:37AM
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I hear you, rococogurl, and I appreciate your post. I knew that European dishwashers were a bit thinner than American, but didn't review the installation instructions. Partly this reflected the fact that our Kitchenaid had developed a leak, expediting the purchase and install of a new dishwasher, and partly this reflected the success that we'd had putting Bosch dishwashers into 24" openings in both of our prior houses. I was expecting the Miele to work at least as well under the same circumstances. Lesson learned. It appears that Miele is a more finely tuned instrument, requiring a more precise installation. If I can significantly reduce the noise by having someone pull the dishwasher, modify the cabinets, and reinstall, then I'll gladly do so. I place a lot of value on quiet.

My only hesitation is that it seems like most of the sound is coming through the door, but I readily acknowledge that my ears may be playing a trick on me.

    Bookmark   March 9, 2014 at 1:53PM
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Wood strips provide purchase for the side mount screws, and resist frame distortion when they are tightened.

The rubber strip, about 3 inches by 24 inches for my Miele Optima, has a sticky strip for mounting it to the bottom of the dishwasher such that it drapes against the floor. The plastic or a replacement wood toe kick will further suppress the sound.

My Miele has no insulation on the bottom, and sealing the reflected sound at the bottom is important. I can barely determine whether my Optima is even running without sometimes having to check the light on the top of the door.


    Bookmark   March 9, 2014 at 2:38PM
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Anyone selling Miele dws is negligent not to tell a buyer it requires the slightly narrower opening -- it's a well known quirk. Not sure about other brands.

No way you would know and unless you'd been around here or on kitchens or were a designer. It's logical to assume it would be the same as any other brand.

I also renovated an apartment kitchen and put in a Miele Optima (now Dimension) with properly sized space. It replaced a 25 y.o. GE potscrubber in existing cabinets -- modified. The machine was hardly audible vs the current one in our house which we can hear draining and sloshing.

You have the top of the line Diamond which is the quietest of all. If you're willing to go to the trouble to uninstall and modify, there should be a difference. But for goodness sakes, protect your floors and adjacent cabinets very well.

This issue has come up many times here in the past.

    Bookmark   March 9, 2014 at 3:00PM
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Have you put your ear next to the dishwasher to verify where the noise is actually coming from (sides, top, bottom, through the door)?

I have a Bosch and most of the noise is coming from in between the worktop and the top of the dishwasher door, where the water jet hits the door seal and from in between the custom panel and the toe kick.

Did you install the foam thingy that came with the dishwasher (picture 23)?


    Bookmark   March 10, 2014 at 8:41AM
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Thanks again, rococogurl. I'm going to see how much my GC will charge to modify the cabinet and reinstall.

Thanks for the replies, Kas and whirlpool_trainee. No, I do not have the foam thing that appears in picture 23. I'm guessing that the installer thought it was extra packing material and took it with him. And, the Miele technician didn't pull off the kick toe, so he wouldn't have noticed its absence.

Last night, I put some dense foam into the recessed portions of the plastic toe kick, but it definitely doesn't extend back to the dishwasher like the foam thing in the picture. I also shoved some foam into the 1/2" opening at the top of the dishwasher. I felt like MacGyver, but it's not clear that these changes made any difference.

I've concluded that the stainless steel panel that Miele sells is hollow (aside for a few braces), which may explain why I feel like sound is coming through the door. I suspect that a solid wood panel would offer better sound blocking than a hollow metal panel, but I prefer the all stainless look. The question remains whether it is possible to put a sheet of sound blocking foam in the panel and reinstall. Since the installer apparently forgot to install the foam that goes on the bottom, I'm hopeful that he forgot to install some foam in the panel. But that is probably just wishful thinking.

    Bookmark   March 10, 2014 at 4:10PM
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You have the fine tuned part right. If there is a gap on the sides of the unit - noise will be increased. More so if you have Framed cabinetry and the open is too large AND then there is additional space behind the frame that allows noise to bounce around.

If there is a gap above the unit and below your countertop - noise will be increased.

If there is a gap below the unit ( and there almost ALWAYS is) - noise will be increased. thats' why miele provides that insulation and/ or rubber strip to button it up.

Did the installer use the black plastic toekick that came from Miele on your unit ? Does your cabinetry toekick run in front of the DW ?

Fixing these issues will go a long way towards reducing the noise.

Now to the no so easy part. The miele metal panels are hollow so to speak. At least they were many years ago. I haven't seen one in 7-8 , so they may have changed.

In order to control sound there , you;ll have to soundproof it. I'd take it to a local Car Sound shop and tell them you want to "quieten up this door panel". Especially one that caters to $$$$$ cars. It's not strictly a car door panel , but it's a door panel and made of metal , so they shouldn't have a problem. They will dampen the metal with Dynamat, a sticky sheet of sound deaden-er and then insulate it with a thick fabric insulation like you'd find under the carpet in higher line cars. Basically the same stuff that miele sent to shove under the DW.

This will cost you a couple of hundred bucks, as the material isn't cheap.

    Bookmark   March 10, 2014 at 9:01PM
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Before I soundproofed the door I'd do the other fixes and see what difference that makes. If that's a soft-close door it may be calibrated somehow to stay open/not by weight -- worth a check with Miele (I call in the a.m. to get the east coast call center). Nothing more annoying than a dw door that falls open.

If I remember correctly, the machine should be basically inaudible when it's running but, no matter what, you will still hear it draining.

    Bookmark   March 11, 2014 at 8:09AM
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Put a folded, thick blanket or similar in front of the stainless panel without covering the gaps around the dishwasher. If that doesn't make the dishwasher significantly quieter, I'd save the couple of hundred bucks on soundproofing the door.

I just checked some of the quieter Bosch dishwashers and all models, regardless of whether they accept cusom panels or are prefinshed, already have insulation material inside the door. I'm pretty sure the Miele will have some in its door, too.


    Bookmark   March 11, 2014 at 10:36AM
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w t - we are talking about the removable decorative door, stainless in this case, but you could get black or white. And unless things have changed, it doesn't have any sound proofing.

But both of you are right. Try the easy things first.

    Bookmark   March 11, 2014 at 5:52PM
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w t - we are talking about the removable decorative door, stainless in this case, but you could get black or white. And unless things have changed, it doesn't have any sound proofing.

But both of you are right. Try the easy things first.

    Bookmark   March 11, 2014 at 5:53PM
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Maybe I wasn't too clear on this: I meant to say that there should be insulation inside the dishwasher's door itself (where the detergent dispenser etc. is).

For reference, this is a custom panel Bosch 800 Plus. 0240 is the inner door panel, inside the dishwasher; 0260 is the outer door, that's where the custom panel attaches to and 0250 is insulation inside the dishwasher's door. That's what Miele should have as well and that's what I was referring to. By the way, 0264 is a "rubber skirt" that goes on the bottom edge of the custom panel and extends behind the toe kick to shield off noise coming from underneath the dishwasher.

    Bookmark   March 11, 2014 at 7:55PM
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Thanks for all of the helpful suggestions! I really wish that I'd checked in here before buying and installing the Diamond.

* I'm using the plastic kick plate that came with the Miele. It doesn't match the wood around the bottom of the rest of the kitchen.

* There is no foam between the kick plate and the bottom of the machine (as shown in the figure that whirlpool_trainee posted originally). There is also nothing hanging down from the door (as shown in the figure that w_t just posted for the Bosch).

* There is the metal part of the door that a wood panel can be attached to. I'm sure there is insulation inside that space, which is about 1/2". There is no insulation inside the stainless steel panel that Miele sells as an alternative to a wood panel. That is also about 1/2". I would have thought that including some sound absorbing under the panel that Miele sells would be a not-too-expensive way to reduce noise regardless of how else the dishwasher is installed.

* Holding a blanket in front of stainless steel panel definitely reduces the sounds of the water sloshing around. The free sound meter app on my iPhone 5 registered in the 58-60 db range without the blanket and 52-54 db range with the blanket. I don't own a real sound meter, so I don't know if the levels are accurate, but the change was pretty obvious.

* I can pay to reinstall the dishwasher with the Miele filler strips (which will make it exactly 24" wide from front to back), and then make sure that I have the foam at the bottom of the unit (which the sales guy seems to view as an optional step that homeowners can take rather than something that is part of the standard install). If I'm not happy at that point, I can return the dishwasher to Miele for a refund on the dishwasher, but not on any of the installation costs. If I'm happy but want to push things further, I can soundproof the heck out of the panel on the door.

* Or, I can give up and just buy the Bosch 800 Plus for about $800 less, which the expectation that it'll work better in our space. I like the racks and cleaning results in the Miele but I'm being to feel like "Immer Besser" is more of a challenge to me to perfect the installation than a commitment by Miele to design the quietest possible dishwasher :)

    Bookmark   March 11, 2014 at 11:10PM
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I just read that there's an .5 inch gap at the top of your dishwasher? Well, that shouldn't be. There shouldn't be any gap except for the small gap the mounting brackets may need. Raising the dishwasher is easy enough and outlined in picture 10 of the installation manual.

I wonder if you could fill the SS panel with some sort of spray foam insulation.

    Bookmark   March 12, 2014 at 7:46PM
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I would check what the DB rating is. The Bosch 800 Plus Series goes down as low as 39db which you really can't even hear standing on top of the unit. Oak flooring can radiate some noise as can gaps onthe side. No matter what, the unit should have a blanket wrapped around it to deaden the noise. If not, I would return it before you throw good money at it trying to quiet it down yourself. You should not have to do that after spending good $ on this product. FYI, while it would slightly help, a foam insert will muffle very little. I also really think the majority of your sound is projecting out from the door, not the sides e.g., 70%/30%. You can tap on the inside door with your nail. If it's a high pitch ping, there is no or minimal insulation in the door (return it). If you do want to quiet it yourself, remember, dense material trumps foam. Foam is for fitment, shock absorption, protection, with "some" deadening qualities. Think of it this way, stand inside a cinder-block room- it will be quiet vs. hold a piece of foam rubber in front of you (same environment)- it will not be that quiet. Another trick is air- air between solid walls is known to deaden sound- that is why recording studios and quiet rooms do this so it is a layered approach- dense material e.g., brick or heavy, acoustically sheet rock in a frame with heavy insulation, another layer of sheetrock, air gap, then one more layer (wall). Unfortunately, you really do not have that much space in a cabinet. Also, the thickness of the metal (gauge) will effect the overall resonance qualities. If you can hear water splashing, and not just the low notes (motor), I would return it. I would also put down some cork on the floor with the new install to absorb the noise and related vibrations.

    Bookmark   March 13, 2014 at 8:02AM
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Anything put into a DW panel, even a panel that is stainless steel, should be unwettable. I would use the weighted plastic sticky panels made for automotive door sound deadening and available from auto parts stores supporting the body shop trade.

But the big clue is farther above. If the DW is not fully raised, then the sound is not blocked at the top. Once top and sides are blocked, then the bottom can be dealt with.

I think someone noted already that it might be best to use the installation instructions and proceed through them step by step.


    Bookmark   March 13, 2014 at 10:15AM
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I really appreciate the continued advice. Here is a recap for those without the stamina to read everything above:

1. Installed Diamond in 24" space without first installing the filler strips or, better yet, modifying the cabinets to reflect the slightly narrower width of European dishwashers.

2. Miele approved/certified installer recommended by the appliance store did not add insulation between the kick plate and the bottom of the dishwasher (as shown in the document whirlpool_trainee posted the link to), and left more of a gap between the top of the dishwasher and the granite countertop than he was supposed to.

3. Miele technician pointed out the extra space above the dishwasher but told me that some gap is required so that the tube carrying the hot water to the upper spray arm doesn't get cracked by the granite. (The thick foam insulation that I shoved into the opening made little difference.) Technician did not notice the lack of insulation between the kick plate and bottom of the dishwasher.

4. By buying the version of the Miele Diamond with the controls on the front and then buying the stainless steel panel sold by Miele, which turned out to be insulation free, I likely ended up with less insulation in the door of the dishwasher than people installing a wood panel in the space below the controls or people buying other versions of the Diamond.

I believe that issues 1, 2, and 3 can be addressed by reinstalling the unit. But, the reinstallation will not help with issue 4, and I'm conflicted about whether to put time and effort into solving a problem that I believe Miele should have already solved.

This is definitely a first-world problem, but I look forward to having it behind me so that I can obsess about something else. This week, I'll have the dishwasher reinstalled or initiate the request for a refund from Miele and install a Bosch. Either way, I'll let the community know my experience.

    Bookmark   March 15, 2014 at 11:19AM
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As the current owner of an improperly installed (in 24-inch wide space) Miele Incognito with cabinet panel and former owner of a properly installed Optima with SS door, I don't agree with the conclusion that the SS door is an issue.

My Incognito with cabinet panel is noisy. The Optima, with ss door, was very quiet.

However, I do agree with the OP's alternatives for a solution.

What it comes down to is whether the potential difference in noise -- which I see as dancing on the head of a pin no matter which machine is selected -- is worth the respective aggravation levels.

    Bookmark   March 15, 2014 at 12:50PM
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kitch - perhaps a bit of education is order for you. Mieles (and other euro DWs for that matter) don't have blankets of insulation wrapped around them like you see on the DWs at your local home center or on the one you pulled out of your house.

They have a solid metal outer case. Their insulation is between this case and the inner body. Some models have a pad that is visible on the top of the unit, but that's all the insulation you'll see. Further - the doors have insulation in them too ! What reuters is talking about is her decorative door/panel/cover. Which in this case happens to be stainless steel. It could just have easily been made of cherry, MDF and paint, aluminum and glass , or even lead. Those "doors" don't have insulation in them. Not the one she purchased from miele or the cherry one from billy bob's cabinets and bookcases.

She could easily remove her "door" and still use her dishwasher. Remove yours and you're outta business.

Reuters - you didn't end up with less insulation, my doors are from top tier Italian and German cabinet companies and they have zero insulation in them! They have more mass than yours though.

Your tech is full of hot air and horse pucky re: the gap at the top of the unit. It's designed to go within 3mm of the counter underside. Ask him if he thinks the water in that tube under the insulation gets hotter than say a pan that just came off of the stove and was placed on that same granite ? Get a clue fella - granite is tough stuff.

I think you are being a bit unfair re: the quality issue. Miele doesn't claim to have the quietest DW. They claim to have the best - or striving for it anyway. Quiet is only one component of the program. Tehy are all "quiet"

I've seen one opened up as well as a Bosch - and I can tell you the Miele is a more substantial machine. I own both. Given the shear cost of manuf. and delivering a German made DW to the USA, the quality level , and the selling price, I have to wonder if Bosch is just a bit overpriced (even though it's cheaper) compared to a comparable Miele.

I also have news for you. If you're expecting to not hear your DW - forget it. The Bosch may be more quiet, but if it's not installed to spec - it'll be louder than claimed too!

Now, their SS door is not removable - it's integrated as part of the body. That may or may not be a quieter design. Their units also come integrated with rubber filler strips to fill out 24" wide openings. Easier process than Mieles's , but still not as good for noise and having a true 60 cm opening from the cabinetry. Gap above that unit is going to equal more noise too. Ditto with leaving off the toekick insulation.

Also, if you want more noise reduction - get a solid piece of cabinetry toekick to cover the DW and adjacent cabinets on that run .

    Bookmark   March 20, 2014 at 2:56PM
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"Miele doesn't claim to have the quietest DW."

Well, have you looked up Miele's SoundTruth page? It's rather interesting, how Miele is trying to go against that certain manufacturer that claims to have the quietest dishwasher.

Will attach the link I got the image from at the end of the message.

Here is a link that might be useful: Dishwashers : Features / Benefits

    Bookmark   March 21, 2014 at 12:34PM
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    Bookmark   March 21, 2014 at 12:37PM
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Hi, xedos, rococogurl, and whirlpool_trainee,

A couple of comments that segue into an update:

1) I don't expect the dishwasher to be silent, just quiet. I'm getting sounds readings (post re-installation) that are consistently between 57dBA and 63 dBA when the Miele is spraying water. That is an enormous difference from the advertised claim of 42dBA that whirlpool_trainee posted. If I were getting down to 49 dBA (the claim for the Classic), I would be ecstatic.

2) The build quality of the Miele is impressive, and I've grown to love the racks, but no one who has heard it running would describe it as quiet.

3) I'm completely open to the possibility that the hollow stainless steel panel is not the problem. I would have thought that solid wooden paneling has better noise-reducing properties than hollow stainless steel, but the difference may be minor.

4) I've owned two Bosch 800s, both installed in 24" openings that were much quieter than the Miele Diamond is in a 24" opening. But, we're talking about three different kitchens.

5) The Bosch 800 Plus is also made in Germany, which makes me wonder why it is so much cheaper than the Miele. If it is sufficiently quiet, I guess I wouldn't care.

6) Yes, I know all about the 90 day guarantee...

... in fact, I contacted Miele last week and asked to have them buy their dishwasher back. They responded that because my installer was not currently on their list of Miele approved installer, I am not eligible for the 90 day guarantee. I was genuinely surprised, as was the appliance store who had told me that he was a Miele approved installer. So, when Miele offered to have a technician come out to reinstall the unit, the appliance store offered to pay any and all costs associated with the visit.

Today, the Miele technician installed the filler strips, raised the dishwasher so that the gap at the top was 1/4" instead of 1/2", and added the missing strip of insulation at the bottom, to supplement the insulation that I'd cobbled together. Before he did any work, we listened to the machine run for a few minutes.

His first response was that I should have purchased a quieter model, like the one in the Miele showroom. When I pointed out that I had purchased the same model that was in the showroom, and that this was Miele's quietest home dishwasher, he seemed genuinely surprised by how noisy my dishwasher was. In fact, he said that it reminded him ofa noisy dishwashers from 10 years ago.

When the work was done, we ran the machine again. Neither of us noticed any change in the sound level. He admitted that he hadn't expected these changes to make much of a difference, but had been happy to try. His advice was to move the dishwasher out of the island and against an external wall. That may be excellent advice, but is not an option given the design of our kitchen.

So, my Miele is still noisy and it's unlikely that Miele is going to buy back the dishwasher. Time to talk to the appliance store again...

    Bookmark   March 24, 2014 at 2:49PM
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"I would have thought that solid wooden paneling has better noise-reducing properties than hollow stainless steel, but the difference may be minor. "

It does, but that's not the bulk of your noise problem !

DW needs to be raised again, to with in 3mm of the underside of counter.

-or not-

I'd talk (demand) to appliance store and have them buy the thing back if that's what you want. They are the ones responsible for you not being able to have Miele buy it back.

Not ALL of the 800+ series is made in Germany! Only 2 or 3 of the lineup is imported. And those are not far in price from a like featured Miele.

    Bookmark   March 24, 2014 at 7:25PM
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I raised my Bosch all the way up to where it meets the counter. Zero clearance.

The noise levels you're recording are indeed GE Potscrubber'esque. Where's the noise coming from? From in between the DW and the counter? The base? Through the rear of the island? I also don't think the hollow panel is the biggest issue here. I think all Diamond dishwashers have the same noise rating - whether fully-integrated, pre-finished or whatever.

Final question: does the door fully close? Since you're saying that you can hear water splashing all through the house, I wonder if the door does not fully seal the tub. Even a slight misalignment can cause a lot of noise from the inside of the dishwasher to escape. Miele doors are easily adjustable.

    Bookmark   March 24, 2014 at 8:22PM
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Sorry, work has kept me away from garden web.

xedos: I've been eyeing the Bosch SHE9ER55UC. Is it made in Germany? I thought so, but now I can't find anything about where the unit is manufactured.

Do you happen to know if Bosch still wraps its units in a blanket when installing them? This was true for the 800s that I had installed in the past, but things could have changed.

whirlpool_trainee: There is noise coming from the top and bottoms of the dishwasher. Based on your and xedos posts, it appears that the technician didn't raise the dishwasher as high as he should have, which isn't helping. He claimed that the auto open feature prevented him from eliminating the gap, but we could have done better. The comedy of errors continues...

As far as the door not closing all the way, that is an interesting hypothesis. The Diamond has an auto close feature that grabs the door when you start to close it and then closes it the rest of the way, so it may be that adjustments to the doors of the Diamond are more complicated. (BTW, while I understand using auto open to improve drying, I do not see any benefit to the auto close. Perhaps the one requires the other.)

I've asked the appliance store to take back the Diamond and sell me a Bosch. I'm expecting a response today.

    Bookmark   March 28, 2014 at 9:55AM
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I just did a search on "Germany" on Bosch's homepage and it gave these models as a result:


It says Made in Germany in each product description. Having said that, I couldn't find any difference in insulation material between those dishwashers and the one you mentioned by looking at the exploded views of each machine.

    Bookmark   March 28, 2014 at 7:37PM
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i still maintain that if the install space was not reduced to 23-5/8. in width, the dishwasher will not be quiet. This is from experience with the two installs.

But nevermind. No brand is for everyone. Sounds like buyback is the way to go for you and wishing you best of luck with the swap out.

    Bookmark   March 28, 2014 at 10:03PM
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Would you mind posting a picture of the install? It just seems so strange that the tech said it did not sound like a normal Miele and walked away without offering you a resolution.

    Bookmark   March 28, 2014 at 10:14PM
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Thank you, whirlpool_trainee. SHE9PT55UC seems to be the newer version of the model to which I am drawn. I appreciate you pointing me to the newer model number!

I hear you, Rococogurl. Based largely on your experiences, I asked our GC about modifying the cabinets to narrow the opening from 24" to 23 5/8". He responded that his preferred approach is to wrap the unit in a "duct insulating blanket" and then use weather stripping to fill the rest of the 24" opening, so that it is a snug fit. He estimated a couple hundred dollars total for labor and materials. If I could have a do over, I would have added two 3/16" strips of wood from just inside the opening to the back of the cabinet, which would have been a cheap and easy thing to do from the start. Lesson learned. There are lots of things about the Miele that I'll miss but since I bought the machine 90 days ago, I'd run out of time and patience.

Homepro1: I've uploaded a picture of the unit with the door closed. If you look closely, you'll notice that the unit is leaning slightly to the right. The was not the case with the original installation. If you'd like to see pictures with the door open, etc., please just let me know.

    Bookmark   March 29, 2014 at 8:14PM
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The fact that you may have a lemon notwithstanding, that installation is so.not.right. I don't care who did it. There should be no gap at top or side and it should not be off center. Unclear whether it's even level.

The contractor's suggestion to "wrap the unit in a "duct insulating blanket" and then use weather stripping to fill the rest of the 24" opening, so that it is a snug fit." tells me he doesn't know what's he's doing with this particular dishwasher and he's making it overly complicated/expensive to deflect. My contractor did it with 25 y.o. cabinets.

The only question is whether the opening is the size specified in the installation spec sheet. If it is, and the problem persisted then you've got a lemon. If not, then you'll never know.

Again, you're comfortable with Bosch and you've made the decision.

However, would you indulge me and put a measuring tape flat on the floor and then measure to the bottom/underside of the stone? What's that measurement?

This post was edited by rococogurl on Sun, Mar 30, 14 at 9:50

    Bookmark   March 30, 2014 at 9:46AM
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For comparison, this is my dishwasher. What looks like a small gap at the top (open dishwasher) is a shadow.

    Bookmark   March 31, 2014 at 11:55AM
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Alex, why I asked for measurement. Looks like the cabinet might be a bit higher than normal. Yours looks like the "proper" install. I tried to find a photo of my Optima but couldn't.

Would be interesting to see a photo of reuters' install with the door open.

    Bookmark   March 31, 2014 at 5:37PM
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Glass half full: My experience reflects some combination of the dishwasher, the design of my cabinets, and its continued mis-installation. Anyone who has their Miele carefully installed in an opening of the appropriate size is almost certainly going to have a better experience than mine. Therefore, my experience should not sway those choosing between dishwasher brands.

Glass half empty: I bought the unit from a high-end appliance store that sells lots of Miele dishwashers, used the installer that the store recommended, had the unit reinstalled by a Miele technician, and it still noisy. Had I not started this post, it's unclear that anyone would have ever told me about the need for a 60 cm opening. It didn't come up when I bought the unit, when the installer arrived to install the unit, or when talking to either technician. If other folks naively assume that the sales person or installer will advise them on how best to prepare for the installation, and this advice is not forthcoming, they may end up being disappointed, too.

Given how things have played out, it would be silly to pay a carpenter to modify the cabinets before the Miele is gone. But, the part of me that cares more about figuring out what's been going on than about money may do so anyway. At a minimum, I may try raising the height of the dishwasher myself. With my luck, I'll either find that the Miele is quieter than the Bosch or break the Miele :)

Measurements: Width: 24" across at the top and bottom. Height to the bottom of the counter: 34+11/16" left side and 34+10/16" right side. Placing a magnetic level on the bottom or right side of the dishwasher door suggests that it is leaning a tiny bit to the right. However, the level also suggests that the cabinet on the right leans a tiny bit to the left.

The dishwasher is running right now. Will post a picture with the door open in an hour or two.

    Bookmark   March 31, 2014 at 7:28PM
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Raising the unit is very simple.

Here is a link that might be useful: G5000 North American Installation

    Bookmark   March 31, 2014 at 7:55PM
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I really do appreciate the continued feedback and advice.

Here is the picture. Hope you like my dishes :)

The gap between the top of the dishwasher and the countertop is 1/4" on the left and 5/16" on the right.

Can I re-attach the dishwasher to the side cabinets using my torx screwdriver? Or do I need to buy a torx bit for my drill (like the Miele tech used)?

    Bookmark   March 31, 2014 at 11:13PM
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Reuters, does the floor continue under the DW?

Trying to figure out why, with 34-3/4 counter (which is correct) there is such a gap at the top.

Alex' install looked like mine.

    Bookmark   April 1, 2014 at 2:59PM
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Yes, the oak floor continues under the dishwasher, so it is almost certainly possible to raise the unit further.

At the bottom of the first photo I posted, you'll see that the bottom of the dishwasher is a tiny bit higher than the bottom of the cabinets. Perhaps that is the reference point the Miele tech was using when I asked him to install the unit as high as possible.

    Bookmark   April 1, 2014 at 4:36PM
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"the level also suggests that the cabinet on the right leans a tiny bit to the left. "

This means you also have a less than ideal cabinet install too ! Which, is compounding problems. You also have framed inset cabinets, so your 24" opening is around 24 1/2" + back there in the middle of the cavity because the frames are not flush with the carcass sides of the cabinets. (at least that's what it looks like in the pic) This is typical, but a disaster for a Euro DW install ! You've got a sizable echo chamber in there. The 1/4" gap at the top is not your friend either - but you've been told this already.

Additionally - your cabinetry toekick does not go in front of the DW, and it looks like 1/8" - 1/4" skin in the pics - but can' be sure. In Europe, there will be 1/2" - 5/8" thick continuous toekick in front of the DW which blocks and damps noise from the bottom , which is considerable !!!

Torx screwdriver will work if you've got huge forearms and an iron grip. Bit for a drill driver is better.

    Bookmark   April 1, 2014 at 6:16PM
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Thank you *very* much for the information shared in this thread - it helped me to realize that some of my install ideas are not going to work.

I've started a separate thread with questions.

    Bookmark   April 2, 2014 at 2:40PM
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