Please help me love my Bosch dishwasher...

tress21February 2, 2011

Ordered the KitchenAid KUDE60 from Sears online. Two days later, I received an email that they were sold out of the KA and substituting the Bosch SHX65P0. I asked if they would substitute another model with features similar to the KA (heated dry, larger racks), or if I could pay the usual difference to upgrade to the KUDE70, but no go. Take the Bosch or leave it. So, after much deliberation, we took the Bosch. After all, how bad can a top-rated $1200 dishwasher be? Let's not act spoiled, now!

So the Bosch has been installed for 2 weeks and I hate it. I scrape my dishes and run it every day with the instruction-manual-recommended Finish powerball tabs and Jet Dry. I run it at night on the Sanitize Auto cycle and open it in the morning. There is a nasty smell upon opening the door and the interior door is sopping wet. Plastic items are also dripping. Most of the dishes are clean, however there are always 3 or 4 bowls covered in food. Some is hard dry remnants of stuck-on food, some appears to be food that was flung around and redeposited onto other dishes. So each morning I handwash whatever's dirty and leave the door open for everything to dry. We are banging into that dishwasher door all morning long.

But the worst is the filter. I clean it every single morning with a toothbrush and antibacterial soap because it smells awful. It's coated in whatever was on my dishes. Whatever sauce, or particularly any greasy or oily residue that was on the dishes, I find coating the filter in the morning. This morning, the entire filter assembly was covered in last night's curry. Couple that with the two inches of dirty water left standing in the filter after every load, and I have one stinky dishwasher. (From previous forums, I understand that a few inches of standing water in the filter assembly is normal.)

The Bosch was installed by a plumber. The drain loop goes to an air gap which then goes to the garbage disposal. I always clear the garbage disposal and then run the hot water before turning on the dishwasher.

Please, please help. What am I doing wrong? I read the manual, I thought I could do without heated dry, but maybe I was wrong! My old noisy $300 Maytag worked better than this. At least everything was clean and dry, and I never had to scrub the filter.

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laughablemoments

Yikes, that does not sound like it's running right. At all. Have you called Bosch?

    Bookmark   February 2, 2011 at 2:16PM
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warmfridge

I'm not an expert, but ''greasy residue'' sounds like the water is not being heated adequately. Agree you need a service visit to figure out the problem.

    Bookmark   February 2, 2011 at 3:50PM
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shorts

Sounds like a definite plumbing/install issue.

    Bookmark   February 2, 2011 at 4:13PM
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asolo

From your description, seems like drain and heat trouble to me. Since it's new machine, I would make it dealer's issue, not your own. Suspect careless install.

The heat part is easiest to check. Just open it up late in the wash cycle and check it. It should be hotter than your hand can stand....120F to 140F at least.

More difficult, but not too bad, will be the drain line. Since you say there's food particles all over in the machine, I have little doubt there's an obstruction in the drain. All that stuff should be flushing out with every drain. If your drain line is free, it will. If it's obstructed, it can't.

In any event, I have no doubt the problem will be easily diagnosed and fixed in a single visit. At least I will be surprised to learn otherwise.

    Bookmark   February 2, 2011 at 4:23PM
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tress21

Thanks everyone for your suggestions!

warmfridge, I tried opening the door immediately after the cycle finished, as someone recommended that to expedite drying. Clouds of steam emanated, so I think the water is getting hot. With all that detergent and hot water, it's a mystery to me how there could be grease left.

laughable, I did find a couple of threads about odors coming from leftover water in Boschs...no mention of lingering food or grease, though. Dreading the call to Bosch customer service, but I suppose it's necessary.

shorts, any idea what sort of installation error might cause this?

    Bookmark   February 2, 2011 at 4:26PM
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eandhl

When you look under your sink cab do you see the drain hose looped up high? There has to be high loop.

    Bookmark   February 2, 2011 at 4:31PM
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asolo

OP said installed with air-gap.

"...any idea what sort of installation error might cause this?"

Usual culprits are kinks in the drain hose or unnoticed chunk of something that's become wedged/jammed inside. If you want to check it out yourself, easiest way is to get a big bucket, disconnect drain hose from disposal and allow it to discharge/drain into the bucket. If you have free-flow into the bucket, that means the obstruction is in the disposal inlet. Since you'll have the hose disconnected anyway, look into that tube make sure it's clear. Obstructed disposal inlet tubes are also quite common. I've seen them 3/4 obstructed with grease and crud. In any event, this is an easy check for almost anyone to do without uninstalling the machine itself.

My hunch is that you don't have free-flowing drain line and as soon as you do all your other problems will go away within a load or two following.

Please advise how it turns out. I'm interested.

    Bookmark   February 2, 2011 at 6:00PM
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cruzmisl

Thats too bad you're having a bad experience and exactly what I was worried about when I picked up my new DW'er. I wouldn't mess with it. Call Sears and have them send someone out to look at it. You had it professionally installed so its their problem not yours. If they can't figure it out then have them replace it.

I too wanted a KA but the cost was prohibitive. I wanted it because it had an old school element for drying and I read mixed reviews on the convection drying. I just couldn't justify the price.

I went with the 800 series Samsung and it dries my dishes perfectly, the entire inside of the unit is dry too. I also like it because it doesn't have a filter that requires cleaning.

I bought mine from Sears because there were very few reviews on it and I could take it back if I didn't like it. Clearly your Bosch isn't working properly and for >$1K you shouldn;t have to put up with it. Get them to come out and let us know what happens.

    Bookmark   February 2, 2011 at 6:59PM
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carol265

I bought Bosch SHE43F in Feb'10 $539 & I agree having to wipe plastic is a pain-did not know to expect that but installer let me know it is a known factor with Bosch because it doesn't have a heated dry cycle. Rack spacing for plates not good but I do not have any of your trouble - mine cleans well - no smell-have never even cleaned filter (may be rising too much before loading)-real quiet-never even thought about it being wet inside at end

    Bookmark   February 2, 2011 at 8:13PM
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sparky823

For the cleaning issue-try changing detergents. Go with Cascade Complete Powder or maybe Finish Quantum.

My personal experience with the Powerball tabs is way too many suds. If yours happens to suds too much, this could be why the dishes aren't coming clean. Too many suds and the pump doesn't pump leaving dirty,filmy dishes.

Also, the Complete might help keep the filter clean! It would be worth a try.

Would also try the Jet Dry Turbo-red bottle.

    Bookmark   February 3, 2011 at 2:30AM
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whirlpool_trainee

Your dishwasher looks pretty similar to the one we have only that ours has a display on it's front - like the 800 Series. There is a service mode on there but I can't remember the button combination right now...

How much water is in the bottom of the machine? Two inches seems too much. I'll attach a picture of the filter in our dishwasher. This is after a couple of cycles. And, yes, it is normal for any dishwasher to have *some* amount of grease on the filter after the cycle is done - it's won't be squeaky clean. But it shouldn't smell, either.

How are you loading the bowls? Maybe they are placed too close together?

This is the bottom of our machine: filter is greasy but dishes clean and sanitized. The water is about half an inch deep.


Alex

    Bookmark   February 3, 2011 at 10:13AM
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whiteclover

I have had a Bosch diswasher for about a year. I have had similar problems until I learned how to pre-clean the dishes first and open the door after the cycle and clean the filter every week or so. Putting one of those cleaning tablets down your garbage disposal if connected to same drain as the dishwasher helps too. I use Cascade Complete and Jet Dry. If you run out of Jet Dry you'll probably want to run dishes through again with Jet Dry or your glasses will be streaked.

I bought the Bosch because it is suppose to be quiet and it is, sometimes I open it when it is running because I can't hear anything. The salesman told me upfront (Sears) that it doesn't have a heating element (like most European models) so it will save on electricity and to just open the door after the cycle and let it air dry. He told me it doesn't have a grinder like my old one did so I would need to rinse my dishes and rinse out the filter once a week. Believe me if you don't rinse it you can tell it is time by the odor. I don't crowd my dishes like I could on my old one so things get clean. Love the quiet and the stainless steel interior. All in all I would go back to one with a dry cycle and a grinder when this ones wears out. I had a Maytag before and it was a gem for out 10 years, quiet and even if a bowl got flipped upright the rinse water was perfectly clean. Love your Bosch for now and then leave it if you don't like pre-rinsing (not just scraping). Saving on the cost of the dry cycle only works if you don't have to run the dishes through twice to get them clean or wash them by hand.

    Bookmark   February 3, 2011 at 12:02PM
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cruzmisl

Pre clean and air dry? Come on! Thats totally unacceptable for a DW'er that costs >$1K. I use the Quantum pucks in my Samsung and it too uses the same drying system as Bosch and my dishes come out dry as a bone. I don't have a filter to clean and have put dishes in there filled with food when I first got it just to test the cleaning potential of the unit. They too came out spotless. With all due respect, if I had to follow a ritual like that I'd take it back. I'd wash my dishes by hand and save my money.

    Bookmark   February 3, 2011 at 4:15PM
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sara_the_brit_z6_ct

Totally agree with cruzmisl: no way should you have to rinse and dry dishes with a Bosch - I've had mine for 7 years now and the only time I had a problem with stuck on stuff was when I loaded it wrongly and blocked the spray arm.
One thing I have learned is to remove the upper spray arm occasionally and rinse it out: I found an olive pit in mine once that got missed from scraping.

Seriously, the stainless steel lining on 'European' style dishwashers is intended to let the steam condense onto it, which then runs down to the drain. The Sears guy who told you to open it to let it dry is completely wrong: the whole point is to leave it closed for some time after it's finished (I run mine late at night and open it next day) which takes care of the steam and dries the plastic perfectly.

I use half a Powerball tablet - a whole one is more than necessary. If anything, you need to use less detergent with this kind of machine.

If reducing the soap, loading carefully, and keeping it closed after it finishes doesn't solve the problem, then you need to get someone in to look at the installation or the machine - it certainly isn't normal for a Bosch to behave in this way.
Good luck.

    Bookmark   February 3, 2011 at 4:25PM
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mindstorm

Ditto the above. My Bosch is going on 6 years now. Not only don't I pre-rinse (let alone pre-clean) but because there are 1-2 people in my house, my DW only gets run every 4 days or so. Cleans spectacularly and there is never any smell (except right after our remodel when the then 6 month old DW went back in and smelt foul - a new thing. Turned out the kitchen sink drain needed unplugging. Got to know that because it was bad enough that a few weeks into it, the kitchen sink backed up! Gah!).

Pre-clean the dishes and you're risking damage to 'em with these enzyme cleaners. Or so we're told. Besides, I wouldn't bother with a dishwasher if I were going to be "precleaning" them anyhow.

Also don't open the DW to dry. Yes, so there'll be puddles on backs of cups and some of the plastic elements may not be entirely dry. But I wouldn't open the DW and have all that hot steam pouring out over my wood cabinets.

Something is wrong with either your dishwasher, the drain-system, or the detergent you are using if the DW doesn't clean or smells bad.

Agree with Alex - 2" in the filter outlet sounds like a lot more than I ever have left. More like 1/2" really.

    Bookmark   February 3, 2011 at 5:08PM
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kitchendetective

Can you photograph the part of the installation that is visible under the sink, including the entire hose, so that folks here can see the loop formation and what you've mentioned about the air gap and disposer?

    Bookmark   February 3, 2011 at 8:47PM
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cruzmisl

My drain hose runs from my DW up to my disposer inlet and thats it. No loop, air gap or anything and I've never had any problems with my Samsung or 15 yr old Frigidaire that was installed before . Maybe I'm lucky or my set up allows me to do it.........

    Bookmark   February 3, 2011 at 8:58PM
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tress21

Thanks everyone for your help!

Yes, my filter right now looks very similar to Alex's photos above. Last night I ran the DW after a meal of soup--quite lean--and it looks similar to the posted photos. There is only a faint odor. What you cannot tell from the photos, though, is that the filter is quite greasy to the touch. And this is after a relatively non-greasy meal. Monday's curry made a much bigger mess of the filter--it was bright yellow, greasy and smelled strongly.

So, Bosch owners: do your filters harbor food/grease?

whiteclover, I am in total agreement. I do have my contractor coming tomorrow to check the installation, but...I'm afraid that there isn't anything wrong with it. If greasy filters are 'normal'...then the only alternative would be to pre-WASH by hand (or stop eating anything with oily residues). I also find that I need to remove every grain of rice, or it shows up on other dishes. Which, I agree (cruzmisl)...is ridiculous.

mindstorm, our home does have a ton of plumbing/sewer issues. I did have the plumber snake the kitchen sink drain line before the sink was installed. If you only use your DW every few days, do you rinse/hold? Because that was the worst of all. My DW rinsed all right--but it didn't rinse anything AWAY. Just onto the filter/floor of my DW!

Here's my setup. The DW is to the right of the sink.

Where the airgap meets the disposal inlet:

    Bookmark   February 4, 2011 at 1:20AM
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eandhl

tress, in my last house I had a Bosch for 5 years. I scrape dishes and in that time a couple pumpkins seeds and a twistie is all my filter ever had. No grease or smell! In this house I have had my Bosch for 2 1/2 yrs. Again a few seeds. No grease, no smell. I use about a Tbs of Cascade. I do know in both houses the drain hose came into the cab and went straight up for the loop, not across the floor first. You defiantly need service with someone that knows Bosch DW
s and their instillation, something is very wrong.

    Bookmark   February 4, 2011 at 7:18AM
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whiteclover

Hey guys don't beat me up over my help. I don't open the door to dry my dishes unless I want them now. And they will dry faster if you open the door and allow the water to evaporate. I too leave the door closed overnight and they are dry the next day with puddles in the cup bottoms. Didn't make myself clear....sorry.

I pre-rinse my dishes (my Mom always did this and still does) but I don't pre-wash them. Again, the enzyme issue with Cascade-like products and etching of your glassware. So spaghetti sauce left to dry overnight might have a sauce ring but no pasta noodles or meat chunks. I just prefer to rinse rather than scrape down the garbage disposal. And my Bosch perfers it that way. My old Maytag would have ground up the noodles, meat in the sauce etc. You can't do that with a Bosch, IMO. And yes, check the holes in the sprayer for objects that are sometimes overlooked. I had a twist tie in mine once. It didn't affect the performance. I still would not buy another dishwasher without a grinder or heat element at this point. But am content enough to live with this one until it dies, afterall I knew it didn't have either when I bought it. I was looking for quiet and I got it with the Bosch and I was looking for something different in a European design and I got that too.

    Bookmark   February 4, 2011 at 10:21AM
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nutherokie_gw

Tress21, about 10 years ago I bought a top-of-the-line Bosch. It was almost silent. At first I was thrilled with it. Then it began creating a horrible stench. I called the service people, plumbers. All said it was plumbed correctly, getting hot water, draining. Fine. It began building up this nasty greasy gunk in the filters and around the gasket. Stomach turning stuff. I'd scald the filters and soak them in Clorox. Eventually I essentially gave up using it for all but a few things. Then the computer board went out. The service guy asked if I wanted him to order another and I looked at him like he'd sprouted a second head.

I'd read enough on these forums to know that what I was experiencing was NOT normal. I knew we'd be moving soon, and wanted something to fit the Bosch space. Well, I bought the most basic Bosch available with the stainless interior and front. It's much noisier than the first but it cleans dishes, doesn't have an odor and no grease builds up on the filter.

All that is a very long way of saying that no matter what the service people are telling you, your dishwasher is not operating properly. Ditch it NOW. Get Sears to replace it before you waste anymore time on the thing. You have a lemon, and this seems to be a flaw to which Bosch are prone.

    Bookmark   February 4, 2011 at 10:22AM
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kitchendetective

Your model is different from mine, but I completely agree with eandhl about the way it is installed. I will say that the flatware doesn't sparkle like it used to since the Cascade formula changed, but I do not have problems with grease, food chunks, odor, general disgusting grossness, etc. as you have. I would address the installation issue first, before deciding that you "have a lemon," because any improperly installed appliance will function improperly.

    Bookmark   February 4, 2011 at 10:32AM
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asolo

I'm not understanding some of these posts. Of course the machine has a heater. That's the only way the water's getting hot enough to do anything. Also don't understand the remaining gunk if the drain hose is clear -- but OP hasn't reported back about any examination done.

I have a whirlpool with a filter arrangement very similar to what's pictured here. I don't have any of the accumulations pictured and talked about here. I have soft water and use teaspoons of Cascade Complete without phosphate. My loads frequently have oils and grease in them. Everything comes out sparkling every time and there's no leftover gunk or smell.

Except for the drying system, this Bosch works exactly like mine does. I have zero doubt it is capable of performing exactly the same way -- once a competent diagnosis is undertaken.

Of course I could be mistaken, but I don't see it from what OP's posted.

    Bookmark   February 4, 2011 at 10:48AM
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grapeleaves

I've had a Bosch DW for 5 years and while I don't have the problems OP has with her filter or the bad smell, I'd say the cleaning is just average.

On a regular wash I will get bits of mashed potato or rice stuck on glasses and occasionally bits of food on cutlery. I've always rinsed my dishes.
Recently, these bits of stuck food got really bad and so I decided to take a closer look and found several of the holes in the top sprayer were clogged.
I've switched to power scrub cycle and that has improved the wash performance quite a bit.

I just looked at my installation and I'm not sure that it is done right.

Is there someone willing to post a picture of the correct installation. I tried to find a diagram online and wasn't successful.
My hose goes across the floor about 6 inches and then goes about half way up the height of the cupboard and then loops over to the garbage disposal.

Also, what cycles are you using to get this great washing performance?

    Bookmark   February 4, 2011 at 12:07PM
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fly964

Dear tress21,
I have my Bosch Evolution 500 series (not a cheap one), which we purchased in November and like you the 25 year old machine we had served us better. We got all brand new appliances and I am going to post my problem with the new GE Monogram bottom-freezer fridge.

Anyway back to Bosch, we called the customer service twice because dishes were not drying. Two things we were told are 1) not to pre-wash or rinse dirty dishes and 2) turn it off once the cycle is complete, i.e. not leaving over-night and open the door.

The only thing we like about this DW is less noise, in fact very quiet. But this is not for us (just two of us) who don't do heavy cooking every day. It takes a couple of days to fill a half-load of dishes and this is why we pre-washed ours before. If I had known about this, we would have chosen another kind...I chose Bosch after reading many reviews (CR, GardenWeb, etc) and everyone seems to love Bosch or Miele....

    Bookmark   February 4, 2011 at 12:37PM
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asolo

"Also, what cycles are you using to get this great washing performance?"

Machine has many cycles but I just hit the "normal" button and let 'er go. Sometimes I hit the "extra hot" button, too, but not usually. The lower level (too noisy) machine I had before this one was the same. The 9-year-old similar model that these machines replaced was the same before the heater stopped working and was too expensive to justify repair.

Actually, they're all pretty much the same....and pretty simple in-principal. That's why I always look to the basics when people report problems. Proper fill-level; clear drain line; properly pressurized and free-to-spin wash arms; proper detergent dose; proper temperature. If these things are as they should be, the contents will have little choice but to come out clean with any machine. I wouldn't call it "great" performance. It's simply what the machines do....any of them. I would expect nothing other from any machine that's working as it should.

    Bookmark   February 4, 2011 at 12:56PM
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kitchendetective

I do not have an air gap or photos of my installation, but this link may be somewhat helpful. I know that I have seen Youtubes and other links in the past that show high loop installations, so I'll see what I can find later when I have more time.

Here is a link that might be useful: High Loop Info

    Bookmark   February 4, 2011 at 2:12PM
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dadoes

The drain plumbing pics that Tress21 showed should be OK. There is no high-loop in the drain hose as such ... but it goes UP to countertop height for connection to the air gap and that serves the same function as a high loop.

She could try raising up the drain hose where it comes through the service opening ... maybe propping it over the cold (not shown behind the disposer) and hot water taps if it's long enough to do that without binding ... but that likely won't make any difference in regards to draining performance.

    Bookmark   February 4, 2011 at 2:37PM
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tress21

Thanks everyone! I do appreciate everyone's input as I try to determine whether I have an install problem, a lemon, or if this is normal and I'm just being too picky.

My drain hose crosses to the other side of the sink cabinet before heading up to the air gap, but Bosch customer service and the installation manual both say that as long as the air gap/high loop is present, it should work fine. Just to check, I'll prop it up just outside the service opening as dadoes suggests and see if that helps.

asolo, thanks for your suggestions. My contractor says that if there is any obstruction of the drain hose, including at the garbage disposal drain inlet, then water would come pouring out of the air gap when I run the DW. I did try to undo the drain hose but it's a tight space and I can't get any leverage to unscrew it. (Suppose the proper tools would help!) But it's a brand new garbage disposal, new dishwasher, new hoses, new everything--I could imagine a grease/calcium buildup blocking the inlet in a 10 year old system, but what would be blocking mine? I scrape my dishes well, and the smallest bits of food are deposited on the filter.

chloe45, here's a picture of the instruction manual showing high loops and air gaps.

Bosch technician coming next Thursday, earliest appt available. Until then, I'll crank up the Jet Dry, try some Cascade, play with the hose position some more.

    Bookmark   February 4, 2011 at 3:34PM
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dadoes

I'd suggest posting a picture of the water level in your unit after fill is complete for any wash or rinse period. Others here who have Bosch machines that are performing well can compare. Maybe it's underfilling, possibly debris clogging a screen in the water valve, if perhaps the installer didn't run the water line clear before making the connection?

    Bookmark   February 4, 2011 at 4:07PM
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asolo

"My contractor says that if there is any obstruction of the drain hose, including at the garbage disposal drain inlet, then water would come pouring out of the air gap when I run the DW."

That's true if the obstruction is substantial and occurs after the air-gap. Not true if obstruction is before the air gap. If obstruction is before the air gap, drain volume will be slower but will still come up and trickle past the gap into the gravity-drain. I'm suspecting a slow flow is causing your problems. Likely incomplete drain and at a flow volume that does not allow the filter to perform as it's designed.

I didn't say that before. I mistakenly ignored the air-gap in my response. However, the idea's still the same.

From your photograph of the air-gap installation, disconnecting the machine-to-airgap hose looks like a 60-second job and the hose itself appears to allow plenty of length to discharge into a bucket or tub. Seems to me 10 minutes spent would put the question to bed for you. Put the hose-end in the bucket and run a rinse-only cycle. This will fill the machine, spray around for a couple of minutes, drain, and stop. On my machine this takes about four minutes total. I'll bet it's about the same on yours. The water should come out in a considerable rush and carry all those particles in the machine with it.

"Until then, I'll crank up the Jet Dry, try some Cascade, play with the hose position some more."

None of these are your problem.....none.

    Bookmark   February 4, 2011 at 4:14PM
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judiegal6

You mentioned your garbage disposal is new. Are you sure the little knock out piece where the DW hose attaches was completely removed at installation. I remember having that little disc inside the disposal drain ( it is suppose to be completely knocked out) being partially attached once. It cause a backup with similar symptoms as you are explaining. Just a thought.

    Bookmark   February 4, 2011 at 5:00PM
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warmfridge

Could there be an obstruction in the airgap itself? I don't have one, so have no idea.

    Bookmark   February 4, 2011 at 5:01PM
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cruzmisl

I agree with nutherokie. Get rid of it. Service this early on a new DW'er that appears to be intalled correctly is BS!

I posted these pics in my review of the Sammy. These are glasses with dried on protein drink and walnut bits. Used a quantum tablet and normal cycle. Squeaky clean and dry.

    Bookmark   February 4, 2011 at 5:16PM
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grapeleaves

thanks Kitchendetective and tress for those pictures.

Mine is definitely not hooked up right. It only goes half way up . And, it doesn't have an air gap that I can tell.
A plumber did the install.

As for the dishes not drying, I just open it when it is done and let the dishes cool, for about 15 minutes and the plastic is pretty much dry too. I happen to like that it doesn't have the element for drying in the bottom because I don't have to worry where I put plastics.

    Bookmark   February 4, 2011 at 5:59PM
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marcydc

Hmm. What judiegal said... My installer also failed to knockout the plug in there. Unplug your disposal and stick your hand down in it and see if you can find the hole into the hose. We couldn't so realized the knockout part was still intact. Luckily we were able to get it out without completely uninstalling the disposal.

    Bookmark   February 4, 2011 at 7:51PM
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tress21

Thanks everyone for your support!

I did check for the knockout valve in the garbage disposal and there appears to be a nice sized hole.

asolo, I finally figured out how to get the drain hose out. You don't uncouple the hose, you disassemble the air gap from the top and drop the entire thing down. I ran the rinse/hold cycle (11 minutes) and there is free flow--of freezing cold water. I didn't realize that the rinse water was stone cold. The DW is hooked up to hot water.

Anyway, intrigued, I hooked the airgap back up and ran a Regular cycle with a powerball tablet. The prewash water was barely tepid. About 40 minutes into the cycle I checked again and while there were clouds of steam upon opening the door, the water was bathing temperature. I believe that was the main wash cycle. As soon as I find my instant read thermometer, I'll run it through the cycle and see what the temperature is.

So I guess it is really necessary to run the tap water hot before running the DW. We don't really notice that it takes long to get hot water at the sinks or showers--just a few seconds. In fact there was a recirculator attached to the water heater and we turned it off because it made the showers too hot and posed a scald risk.

Here's a picture of the filter following the rinse/hold cycle. The water measures 2" deep.

    Bookmark   February 5, 2011 at 1:20PM
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judiegal6

I found this article and thought it might help. It sounds like the rinse water should also be hot.
How Does a Bosch Dishwasher Work?
By Kendra Dahlstrom, eHow Contributor

Sensing System

  1. Many Bosch dishwashers feature sensors that detect the amount of dishes in the washer, as well as the type of dishes. If the dishwasher is mainly full of pots and pans, for example, the sensors know. Using this information, the temperature and cycling time adjusts to conserve water and energy and maximize cleaning. On some models, these sensors also determine how much detergent to use as well.
    Motor System
  2. Unlike regular dishwashers, Bosch washers have two motors that wash and drain simultaneously. Other brands tend to use one large motor. The two smaller motors make the Bosch dishwasher much quieter than the average machine. The motors pump water into the system, then drain the water when that particular cycle ends.
    Water Heater
  3. When the water pumps into the dishwasher, it travels through a heating chamber and small heat coils. This chamber can quickly heat water up to 161 degrees F. Other brands typically have a heating element that sits in the bottom of the machine and waits for water to hit it and warm. Bosch's system is much more efficient.
    Rinse Sensors
  4. During the dishwasher's cycling, sensors determine how dirty the dishes are and how much more cleaning needs to be done. In fact, the sensors control how hot the water is throughout the cycle. It can vary anywhere from 130 to 150 degrees F. The sensors work by measuring how clear the wash water is. If the clarity is satisfactory, sometimes the Bosch dishwasher forgoes additional rinse cycles to conserve energy.
    Drying
  5. Unlike many other dishwasher brands, Bosch does not use a drying element. To conserve energy, the dishwasher uses condensation drying, since Bosch constructs its tub out of stainless steel which is cool to the touch. During the last rinse cycle, the water is very hot. The heat from the water condenses on the naturally cool stainless steel. It then drains out without wasting any energy. Every model of Bosch dishwasher is an EnergyStar appliance. Not only do they save energy, they also save customers money on electricity and water.

Read more: How Does a Bosch Dishwasher Work? : eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/how-does_4572331_bosch-dishwasher-work.html#ixzz1D6w1k6Iz

    Bookmark   February 5, 2011 at 1:41PM
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whirlpool_trainee

No, you're definitely not expecting too much from your dishwasher. We have a Bosch since 2006 and it's been nothing but perfect. We run the machine every three days - by then, the dishwasher is stuffed with dried-on stuff to the top. The only things I'll rinse off are smelly things like fish and the like, which would smell badly if left in the machine for days.

I can't comment on the performance of Cascade or Finish as it's not sold over here - or at least not the same formula, we still have phosphates. However, I tend to disagree with people saying they only use a tiny amount of detergent all the time. I did this for several years and we eventually had to toss the dishwasher because grit formed on the inner workings of the machine - among other issues - and everything washed in the machine smelled strange even after a 158 deg Intensive wash. Since we got our Bosch, I'm using about one teaspoon for the pre-wash and one to two tablespoons for the main wash. The detergent for the pre-wash just gets tossed inside the machine before running it. We have soft water, for what it's worth, because the DW has its own softener. I' not saying it's wrong to use little detergent but I learned the hard way when it was too late... just sayin'.

What I'd suggest is to look at the hose when the dishwasher drains. I could imagine that, since there is a lot of extra hose under your sink, water remaining in the hose backing-up into the dishwasher once the drain pump stops. This could explain why you have two inches of water in the filter area. Look at the clear hose and see if, once the drain pump stops, there's a lot of water rushing back down the hose and into the dishwasher.

Funny how the same manufacturer makes so different units: the true European units have a high loop right inside the dishwasher, thus our drain hose is like ten inches off the floor and we have no issues. The filter, however, is always greasy after completion of the cycle. This is the same on any dishwasher I have ever used, be it Bosch, Miele or AEG/Electrolux. Don't worry about this - it is normal. The smell is a different matter, however.

The normal water level might vary during the cycle. Our model from 2006, for example, uses a lower level for the final 158 deg rinse (less water to heat = less energy used). The normal wash level covers most of the tub's base.

Just like cruzmisl, I'll post some pictures and videos of what to expect from a Bosch.

Trying newly purchased Miele detergent.
Trying Somat Perfect Gel. This is a normal load in my book. You can see how some water remains on plastic items.

A recent load - click on the pictures to enlarge.




Alex

    Bookmark   February 5, 2011 at 2:29PM
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warmfridge

It sounds like the Bosch heater is not heating the water adequately. Wash and rinse temps in a regular cycle should be higher than ''bathing temperature.'' After you find that thermometer, compare your results to the temps listed in your owner's manual for each cycle.

    Bookmark   February 5, 2011 at 7:32PM
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enmnm

OP, do you have an update?

    Bookmark   February 8, 2011 at 7:29AM
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jakvis

Read through all this and looked at the photos. I can tell you that the install is "Almost" correct.

In the photo you have the drain hose running across the floor and then it rises to the air-gap. It also doesn't look like all the drain hose has been pulled through from behind the dishwasher. (it doesn't appear long enough)
Pull on the hose to make sure none is left behind the d/w then raise the hose up at least 20 inches and attach it to the right wall of the sink cabinet straight above the hole in the cabinet. This should vastly improve the performance.( I know it doesnt' seem to make since but it works, it has to with keeping a certain static pressure on the drain pump).

There is one other possibility that I see with some installs. If the installer attached the drain hose elbow to the dishwasher drain port in the wrong direction it can pinch the hose. E.g. in your case the elbow should be installed facing left towards your sink.

The Bosch's are exellent dishwashers, I own one my self and recommend them to my customers. The only thing that I would say is typical is poor installation. SOme installers just don't read directions.
I tell customers to not rinse their dishes, and use an enzyme based detergent (personally I use Quantum).
Try my suggestions and see if it doesn't take care of the issue.

    Bookmark   February 8, 2011 at 7:19PM
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davidro1

Try this:
High loop it first, before crossing the space to the disposer.
"Hoses on DW need to go high first before anything else."
I heard this from a national distributor of F&P, not a Bosch person.
But it makes sense.
So, forget about the hole drilled down low.
Drill a hole up top; then make the hose come down from there.
Disclaimer: I haven't read all this thread.

    Bookmark   February 8, 2011 at 8:26PM
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foodie3

re: * Posted by appliance_b_guide (My Page) on
Tue, Feb 8, 11 at 9:41

This story is a very typical one of these Bosch dishwashers. It's not just you and the install looks right. It is true that the dishwasher only works properly when a.) the dishes are squeaky clean before loading and b.) the dishwasher is cracked open after it is done. It is a horrible design and one that we wrote about on our website. Update the thread on what comes of Bosch customer service or if you decide to get a new dishwasher...

Anthony
Appliance Buyer's Guide

-Nicely unbiased opinion. i bought a scratch and dent 7 years ago and have used it to some large extremes with only 2 minor issues. 1- the rince aid lid developed a leak after 6 years. 2- cascade powder from costco coated everything with white after the phosphates were removed.

switched to Finish tablets, didn't fill the rinse aid since it is in the tabs, and everything works fine.

OP, this is not normal for a Bosch, as i have put in extremely sticky, dirty, cheesy pans and plates with very few instance of unclean. (ok, parm on the lasagna pan sometimes stays if it gets cooked on and then sits in the refer for a week.)

Definite note to Bosch owners, cascade is not the best for your dw.

    Bookmark   February 8, 2011 at 11:37PM
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tress21

Thanks everyone for your suggestions.

Alex--I still can't believe those loads got clean! I'm putting in half of what you did. I wonder--could that sensor thing that judiegal described be 'undersensing' my loads?

I've found that I really need to run the tap until it's fully hot, then run the Auto Plus cycle with the Sanitize function. This is the highest setting. The other cycles, including Regular, Auto and Rinse/Hold, just make a mess. With the Auto Plus/Sanitize, the water gets up to 150 degrees on my instant-read thermometer during the final rinse. According to the manual, Auto Plus/Sanitize uses nearly twice as much water. I wait until about an hour after the cycle finishes (so the steam doesn't wreck my cabinets) and then open the door, shake out the wet items and put them in a drying rack. I leave the machine wide open overnight. (If I forget, the smell returns.) There are still always a few items with soft foods attached. Rice is the biggest offender.

I pulled the hose through the service opening and yes, there was another 2 feet back there (thank you, jakvis). Then I propped the hose up about 16" (couldn't quite get 20") above the floor, above the service opening. This seems to have decreased the residual water to 1.25".

So--should I relocate my air gap closer to the dishwasher? There's a hole in the counter already--it's got my airswitch button. I believe they could be swapped. And if so, what happens to all that extra drain hose?

Bosch tech scheduled for Thursday.

    Bookmark   February 9, 2011 at 2:13AM
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lascatx

I just ran mine last night and went to check because I thought it was normal to have some water down in the filter opening. That is not a problem if it is just down inside -- I have to remove the filter to see it (you do have the filter, don't you?). Have you noticed that the machine pumps that water out first thing when a new load is started? If you didn't run the DW for several days, you might notice an odor from that tiny amount of water, but I've always suspected the dirty dishes. Anyway, there is a way to cancel and drain (on my machine there are 2 buttons marked that you hold down at the same time) or you can run a rinse cycle, which I have done on occasion. But I don't think this water has anything to do with the cleaning issue.

It does sound like the line might be blocked, your filter missing, the water jet holes clogged -- something is preventing that thing from working as it should. Hope you or the tech figure it out very soon.

    Bookmark   February 9, 2011 at 8:06AM
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cruzmisl

Here is my totally incorrect set up. No air gap, no loop, nothing. Works great on my Samsung and worked great for my 15yr old Frigidaire. Dishes are spotless and no weird smells. You must really love that Bosch cause I would have gotten rid of it by now. Its a dishwasher not a rocket ship. It shouldn't be that sensitive.

    Bookmark   February 9, 2011 at 9:08AM
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jakvis

The fact that you state the d/w is now draining more completely indicates you have located the main source of your problem. (it's almost always the install)
I think you'll start seeing improvement now.
I was pretty sure this was the issue because I have my customers check this before having me come to the home if the d/w was installed by someone other than my guys. Many times the customer calls me back saying fixing the drain hose took care of the problem.

    Bookmark   February 9, 2011 at 9:49AM
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davidro1

cruzmisl , just so you know, and everyone else too, that your photo is a good illustration of what not to do. The angle of the photo is good, because it shows the hose is always lower than the kitchen sink drain. If your P trap got blocked the rising gray water would enter your dishwasher. And it would do this before even being visible in the base of your sink. Diseases can occur. Some can and do kill. Some people, not everyone who gets sick. It has happened. These diseases sometimes bring a person down so fast that modern medicine is of little help. It can happen even before you notice the blocked drain. E.g. someone who comes back from vacation, empties their dishwasher because they did one last wash before going on vacation, and uses these dishes, and gets sick, and very sick. Worse stories can be told.

You can use a piece of string to hold the hose higher up. Make it loop upwards first before going down into the disposer.

Hth

    Bookmark   February 9, 2011 at 1:05PM
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asolo

Cruzml.....I absolutely agree with davidro1. I don't know why anyone would EVER do as you have done when creating a "high-loop"-- especially in such a wide-open area as your photograph showed -- is so fast and easy.

    Bookmark   February 9, 2011 at 1:15PM
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maninthefridge

have had a high end Bosch, Kitchenaid and a fisher paykel.
I recently purchased a G.E. PDWT580RSS and it kicks butt on the others. You can check it out at the following link.
http://products.geappliances.com/ApplProducts/Dispatcher?REQUEST=SpecPage&Sku=PDWT580RSS

Here is a link that might be useful: G.E. Appliances

    Bookmark   February 9, 2011 at 2:25PM
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cruzmisl

I know its wrong which is why I started the thread stating my set up was totally incorrect. 15 years later and no illnesses and never any drainage problems. I am NOT suggesting people follow my lead but merely making a point that even with an incorrect set up, a brand new dishwasher should work properly.

Having said that I'll loop the hose just for my own piece of mind.

    Bookmark   February 9, 2011 at 7:06PM
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asolo

cruzmisl.......you are certainly correct that the dishwasher should work properly with a clear drain-path regardless of high-loop or not. And, yes, you did fess up. No worries about that. Am happy to learn you're modifying to include high-loop, though. : )

    Bookmark   February 9, 2011 at 7:19PM
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asolo

Yo, Tress21....

You've got a whole posse awaiting your outcome tomorrow! Please do come back with diagnosis.

    Bookmark   February 9, 2011 at 7:54PM
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dodge59

Who's the Boschie of the Posse?

    Bookmark   February 9, 2011 at 8:43PM
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asolo

You volunteering?

    Bookmark   February 9, 2011 at 8:52PM
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dodge59

Not me thanks, I tend to be "miele mouthed" about DW's

    Bookmark   February 9, 2011 at 10:12PM
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weedmeister

and I've been KO'd by KA.

as a foot note, I know there are some DW models that take care of the 'high-loop' thing by doing it at the washer. That is, the drain hose is routed up to the top of the washer and clamped there before the rest of the length of hose goes back to the floor and where ever.

Hence, cruz's Frigidaire hookup may be just fine if the machine incorporates the same thing.

    Bookmark   February 10, 2011 at 5:47AM
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mindstorm

High loops or low, notwithstanding, the OP's DW seems to me to be missing its heater. Or at least one of them. If they need to run the hot water and that at its hottest it gets to "bathing temperature", that seems like it is the home hot water heater doing the heating and not the DWs own.

The Bosch DWs have a heater. Depending on cycle, they will heat the water to 150 or 170degF. I had had my DW hooked up to cold water. In the winter, the feed water to the DW then was v. cold and always v. cold. DW still got the water up to those temps - took a longer wash time to be sure obviously, but it absolutely got there.

When the heater is hooked up, there is no need whatsoever to run the sink water to hot etc. Not with the Euro-DWs. American models may be different. BTW, some of the service techs don't know this - I've seen it espoused here that people were told by their techs that to get the DW to clean, it needs to be watered with hot water so waste all that water down the sink why don't you before you run your super-water-conserving energy optimising DW. Nonsense.
Tress21, If your tech spouts things along those lines, call him on it, send him packing, and then tell the service company to send somebody who has passed Bosch DW driving school.

Finally, tress, I run my DW every few days and no I don't run rinse and hold. I think the only time I may have done so was when we mistimed our dinner, had fish right after a wash day and couldn't bring myself to run the DW with 2 fishy dishes and 2 forks in it, but couldn't bring self to wash the dishes either (don't recall why) so decided to wait for one more meal before running DW. That was about the only time I did the R&H. Otherwise, I don't do so. My dishes are always clean - and some of them can be quite messy especially the serving or doughy-preparation bowls.

Good luck with the tech. I really hope he can identify and fix the problem but my money is on a non-functioning heater. BTW, the DW works for you - not you for the DW. If this DW can't get its own water hot and can't wash your dishes, you really should not love it and you really should not keep it. My (Bosch) DW works very very well, very reliably and with no tending whatsoever : *that* is why I love it. It does this with half a tab per full load (I use the Miele tabs). Otherwise, I'd have no use for it whatsoever. Let the DW earn its praise and don't accept a DW that won't wash. End of story.

    Bookmark   February 10, 2011 at 10:33AM
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enmnm

OK, OP, update? You've got us all on tenderhooks.

    Bookmark   February 11, 2011 at 8:43AM
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tress21

OK, here's what the Bosch tech advised:

First, although it's perfectly fine to have the air gap on the other side of the sink, the hose must indeed be propped up earlier. Here's what he did:

Second, I had accidentally turned off my Extra-Dry boost. Feeling rather foolish about that. But for those of you who may be unfamiliar with Bosch, the Extra-Dry function is not simply a button that you push. There is one small paragraph buried in the 40 page manual that instructs you to turn the machine off, hold down the cancel button, then turn it back on. The light display says 00, which is factory default setting. You toggle the Cancel button until the display read 01. Then you turn the machine off. There is absolutely NO indication that you have turned the Extra-Dry boost on or off, except that the cycle times are slightly different. While I had initially programmed the Extra-Dry on, I then must have accidentally turned it off when I later programmed the annoying end-of-cycle beeper to stop beeping all night long (which required a very similar turn off/hold cancel-reset/toggle to 01/turn off). I'm usually pretty detail oriented that but it was 3 am when the DW was beeping and I decided I HAD to turn that beeper off, NOW!!

With the Extra-dry back on, cycle times are now about 10 minutes longer than what is listed in the manual. And...on the highest cycle, Auto Plus with Sanitize AND the Extra Dry....my dishes are now mostly dry. Bosch tech suggested opening the door about 15 minutes after the cycle, to allow plastics to air dry overnight.

He recommended a full Finish Powerball tablet and keeping the Jet Dry dispenser at its highest setting. Also recommended using Lemi-Shine every 6 months. He did not recommend Cascade.

I would recommend that anyone with a Bosch having drying problems that you carefully read the manual to see if you have this 'secret' Extra-Dry option. It's not in the cheat-sheet one page owner's how-to-get-started card. If you ever lose power or flip the breaker switch, the DW will reset to its default which is Extra-Dry OFF.

Finally, I asked about the food problem. I showed the tech that while the DW actually did a respectable job scrubbing my rice-encrusted saucepan clean, there was rice redeposited on other dishes. He nodded and said, yes, with this dishwasher you will need to scrape very, very well. Rice, tiny pasta, sesame seeds, small particles of food need to be carefully scraped off of each dish or they may re-appear on other dishes. With my old Maytag, I had gotten used to a quick dump/scrape in the trash and then straight into the DW. So this one may require a more careful rubdown with a spoon or paper towel.

Pre-cleaning is not really acceptable to me, so the trade-off is accepting maybe 2 dishes in each load that have a stray food particle left. Now that the drying issue has been mostly addressed, I'm not finding wet food being left on dishes anymore. So I don't feel that it's a health/safety/smell issue like it was before. An annoyance, certainly, since I expected this $1150 machine to beat my cheapo Maytag by a mile. I did get it at a great deal--and I figure it would cost me somewhere around $750 to swap it for that KA KUDE60 that I had originally ordered.

Thanks to all who took time to read and post answers. The support here is just incredible and I am very grateful.

    Bookmark   February 11, 2011 at 12:25PM
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mindstorm

He nodded and said, yes, with this dishwasher you will need to scrape very, very well. Rice, tiny pasta, sesame seeds, small particles of food need to be carefully scraped off of each dish or they may re-appear on other dishes.

With all due respect to the Bosch techie, that's utter rot.

I'm afraid you got one of those technicians.
Sorry about that. Can you get rid of the DW? (IMO this is a malfunctioning unit).

    Bookmark   February 11, 2011 at 12:41PM
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asolo

Thanks for coming back. Couple of opinions....

1) That drain-hose modification is silly. Accomplishes nothing. He's just giving you a pat on the head.

2) He said: "...with this dishwasher you will need to scrape very, very well. Rice, tiny pasta, sesame seeds, small particles of food need to be carefully scraped off of each dish or they may re-appear on other dishes." I regard as 1) silly and 2) unacceptable in any event.

If that's how it really is with this machine, I'd cut your losses and get rid of it. Living with such poor performance for maybe 10 years would be out of the question for me. Except for the drying system, my new Whirlpool is very similar -- filter and all -- to your machine. My dirty loads regularly contain ..."rice, tiny pasta, sesame seeds, small particles of food..." (doesn't everyone's?) I have zero re-depostion issues and no filter problems. It cleans wonderfully and has none of these problems. Either you're getting the run-around or this particular machine is so incredibly poorly conceived as to be unworthy of a place in its quite-competitive market.

Personally, I find it hard to believe Bosch would design/market any DW that provides what you've described as "normal" performance. I continue to think something is being missed.

Sad to learn this news from you. Thanks for coming back with the story.

    Bookmark   February 11, 2011 at 12:48PM
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boschboy

It sounds to me like the tech is trying to placate you by stating that the dishes need to be pre-rinsed. I have never had any food redistributed on other dishes in my Bosch DW. Yes, this includes pasta, rice and various whole grains.

IMO, it sounds like your machine may be bad.

Here is a link on youtube produced by Bosch that discusses whether dishes should be pre-rinsed.

http://www.youtube.com/user/BoschHome#p/a/91E07E915177682F/1/5si55pHkDIk

Best of luck!

    Bookmark   February 11, 2011 at 1:03PM
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eandhl

I agree what he did with hose is stupid. I would want it immediately to go high after coming in to the sink cab. You have a lot more hose than I have had on my 2 Bosch DW. I did say I scrape but I certainly wouldn't say "very, very well". I agree something is still wrong and you should not settle.

    Bookmark   February 11, 2011 at 1:31PM
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weissman

You got hosed :-). Did he say anything about the water not heating properly? Did you bring it up to him?

Get another tech out or get rid of the machine!

    Bookmark   February 11, 2011 at 1:39PM
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davidro1

This is serious.

Call Bosch directly and ask for service over the phone. Ask for a manager. Tell him you have posted an image on the internet of the drain hose not looped high enough and therefore a risk to public health. He'll give you an email address or he'll email you so you can reply (with a link). Something like that.

Whoever came to your house may have been an independent who they hired. Perhaps he was relying on his previous experience in the DW repair field to get hired. Perhaps he's not a good learner. Some people, once they've learned something once, can't learn something new that changes what they previously learned, unless they get "hit over the head with it." He needs a ding or two.

There are a few web sites of appliance technicians ("gurus"). I'm sure they would love to get their hands on that image too.

Also worth getting their hands on is What You Quoted the tech guy as saying.

Hth

    Bookmark   February 11, 2011 at 1:40PM
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cruzmisl

In the name of all things holy please take the machine back and exchange it for a real dishwasher. It soundes like you paid $1K for a dish rinser. Whats the point of having an appliance that requires you to do most of the work yourself? Having techs come out that have no idea wastes your valuable time and energy.

    Bookmark   February 11, 2011 at 2:07PM
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warmfridge

Tress,

I had a similar problem last year with a brand new Miele. It redeposited food all over other dishes. Mine, however, was at least hooked up correctly. After several service visits, which resulted in etched dishes as well as food deposits, I returned the blasted thing and bought a KUDE60. Best decision I ever made.

IMHO, you need to have the hose routed properly and the DW water heater checked, and if your dishes still aren't clean, you need to return the DW.

    Bookmark   February 11, 2011 at 2:40PM
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jakvis

I talked to My Bosch field service manager and he would like the name of the service company so he can get them straightend out.
What he did with the hose is not correctand accomplishes nothing. The high loop must be at the right wall in your photo, straight up, attached at around 20 inches high, then it can go over to the air gap or drain.

Regarding scraping... All I do is shake the big stuff off into the garbage pale and load directly in the d/w. Like I said the FSM needs to talk to this company.

    Bookmark   February 11, 2011 at 3:19PM
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tress21

So here's what we hooked up ourselves. The drain hose goes immediately up, down again and then back up to the airgap, which empties into the disposer.

Dishes came out with oatmeal on one dish. Of course I'll be continuing to see if performance suddenly improves, but for now I'm

...shopping around for a new DW.

One last question and then I promise I'll quit whining.

KA KUDE60 has an awfully similar looking filter setup. And I'd be amiss if it winds up like my current one:

I haven't found any reports of greasy/stinky filters, but wondering if I shouldn't just go with a grinder instead (KUDS50). Anyone aware of odor/greasy filter issues with KA KUDE60/70? We have an open floorplan, so quiet is nice, but not at the expense of clean.

Thanks again for everyone's help.

    Bookmark   February 13, 2011 at 3:24AM
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asolo

Absolutely unacceptable.

IMHO, Bosch and/or dealer should make this right for you or replace it. Continue to believe machine not operating as it should be and can be made right but if all they send you is know-niothing techs like Thursday, perhaps a different machine is the way to go.

Very disappointing.

    Bookmark   February 13, 2011 at 9:28AM
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warmfridge

I have the KUDE60. I sort of scrape and almost never rinse except for tomato sauce. My filter will trap large chunks of stuff, but amazingly, there's always less stuff there than I would have thought. I clean the filter when I happen to think of it, which is probably once a month. The mesh part of the filter will sometimes have a slight sheen of grease but no significant buildup. I don't have any odor issues (except from unwashed dishes which is to be expected), and my dishes come out CLEAN.

I also have an open-concept home, and to me, cleaning the filter is an acceptable trade-off for a DW with a grinder which would be noisier. YMMV.

    Bookmark   February 13, 2011 at 9:43AM
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cruzmisl

My Samsung has no filter to clean and as depicted in my photos above cleans wonderfully. It doesn't have the fancy name brand recognition of Bosch, Miele or KA but it looks good, is quiet and very affordable. Its also built very well.

This filter cleaning is nonsense IMHO.

    Bookmark   February 13, 2011 at 10:00AM
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nutherokie_gw

Hi again Tress21,

I'm no technician, and the only advice I can offer comes from having had what seems to be the same problem you're experiencing. Once I replaced my first Bosch with another, even though the replacement was a much less expensive model, the problem went away. The new Bosch machine was plumbed just like the first. It has the exact same filter arrangement. But now I put in plates with rice still clinging, sheet pans with the bottoms of biscuits stuck on, pots with spaghetti sauce inside. It all comes out clean. There are no odors and no greasy grunge coating the filter.

I'm sure Asolo is right and that your machine COULD be fixed. The problem is that it is nigh on impossible to find someone to take the time to isolate the problem and fix it. Instead, the techs try to convince you that you're doing something wrong - like operating a dishwasher is rocket science! Your machine is just too new for you to have to deal with the headache. I'd insist on a new machine. I'd be tempted to go with the Kitchenaid you originally wanted, but odds are that even a different Bosch of the same model would work fine. I personally have lost faith in Bosch quality control and plan to go with a Miele for our new house.

    Bookmark   February 13, 2011 at 10:25AM
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grapeleaves

Are your DW's cleaning things like Oatmeal and mashed potatoes?
I don't run mine every day.

My Bosch will not clean those things on a regular wash.
On a scrub wash it does better, although I still might have one or two bowels or glasses with baked on flecks .
Right now I'm using cascade complete tabs and I have some finish quantum tabs I'm going to try next.

My DW was not hooked up right. I've pulled the loop up and attached it near the top of the cupboard and I've not noticed any difference.
I don't have an air gap.

    Bookmark   February 13, 2011 at 10:28AM
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asolo

My new whirlpool has a filter very similar to OP's Bosch. And my typical load is plenty dirty -- all kinds of stuff left on the surfaces. My filter NEVER looks like the pictures OP posted. Never seen one that does. Like warmfridge, I pay little attention to it. Just take it out when I think of it, maybe once a month or so, but there's hardly anything there. Certainly nothing approaching what OP has shown us.

According to my manual, for installations running about one scraped-only load per day, filter cleaning should be done about every three months. No-rinse/no-scrape about once per month. Scraped and rinsed once or twice per year. I just look at it when I feel like it and have never found anything worth dealing with. Very quick and easy. .......which is why I have little doubt OP's machine is not operating as it should. Bosch designs and builds good dishwashers. Something's wrong with this one. It should be made right or replaced.

    Bookmark   February 13, 2011 at 10:35AM
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sparky823

Have you tried opening the door after it fills and adding a quart or two of water? This might help with the cleaning, may not be filling as full as it should.

I notice in the pics that you have the stainless fill line for the dishwasher. Personally, I hate those. Mine was installed with one of those when new and I had cleaning problems. Changed it back to copper line as I had previously and machine washed better. The inside diameter seems smaller on the stainless lines resulting in less fill,plus some machine makers are adding flow reducers so the fill period will be quieter.

Just something to try by adding the water your next load and see how well the cleaning goes. It can't hurt anything.

    Bookmark   February 13, 2011 at 3:02PM
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workingondreamhouse

Oh my - I forgot about the horrible stench of this dishwasher! (we moved and happily left it at our old house in August!). In eight years, and several visits from repairmen who looked at me like I was crazy - we never got it fixed.

As you say, the steam as present, it ruined two integrated panels in 8 years, but it never got things clean. Basically, we washed the dishes and used it as a sterilizer.

Good luck - call Sears and tell them you aren't happy and want a different DW.

    Bookmark   February 28, 2011 at 2:56PM
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ecranny

tress21, did you get a resolution for the problem? I am trying to decide between a Bosch and a KA, and I am trying to find out which will have fewer issues.

I had a similar problem with a DW not draining properly a couple of years ago. It turned out that the waste disposal unit was the culprit. There is a tab inside the unit where the DW drain feeds in, and that tab has to be broken out, maybe yours is not completely removed and that might explain what is happening.

    Bookmark   March 30, 2011 at 11:35AM
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boschwillnotdrain

I have the same problem. Smelly, but now won't drain the water after a cycle is finished. We have paid to have the control board replaced, then again with the aqua sensor and it now pumps some of the water out. If I start a quick wash and then push the cancel and drain buttons it will then pump the water out. However none of the cycles pump the water out at the end and a 0 appears, open the door and at least 1 to 2 inches of water is still in the bottom. They have checked the drain hose and it is at the proper elevation. Because this machine is three years told, we only have used it 1 1/2 years as we are winter visitors for 6 months of the year, they don't appear to now what's wrong and are not prepared to pay the labour for the unsucessful attempts by their technical staff and appointed appliance dealer. We now have invested $350.00 in parts and labour. I can tell you I would never purchase another Bosch when I replace the 10 year old one I have in Canada. This fixet has been going on for 1 whole month, and they are now telling my not to use any soap in the machine!!! Has anyone any suggestions besides buying a new Kitchen Aide?

    Bookmark   March 31, 2011 at 12:28PM
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gr8daygw

I have a nearly 14 year old Kitchen Aid that still seems brand new. I have never ever cleaned any filter or anything else in it or had to run a tang cycle. It doesn't stink no matter if I'm out of town for a week with wet dishes in it. No standing water ever. It's disgraceful how I load it, not carefully at all but it forgives me and washes perfectly anyway. I don't pre-rinse most of the time unless it's just gross, it just goes in. It has a disposal so why should I? I just toss in a Cascade pillow and let er rip. I wash at night open in the morning and perfect every time. I'm so glad I saw all of this about Bosch, I thought I was going with a Bosch in the future when this one dies but so far it's still going strong. Wonderful machine, I only hope the new ones are still as good as the old ones and that every part in it is still made in the USA but I would not bet on that. sigh...

    Bookmark   September 23, 2011 at 11:04PM
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tinan

Just had a Bosche installed a few days ago and have used it 3 times. So far so great - no smell other than a faint "new appliance" smell (adhesives I think) and very very clean and dry dishes! Only thing I don't like are the racks - the tines are very closely spaces and with this base model no moveable bits so it seems less versatile to load. On the other hand dishes are held very tight when in the correct loading racks so no tip-overs to catch water.

I am using 1 tsp Lemishine granules plus 1 Cascade Complete (non-Dawn version) in the detergent dispenser and 7th Generation rinse aid in the RA dispenser.

    Bookmark   January 1, 2012 at 6:34PM
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janiner

FWIW, I've had two Bosch dishwashers and have never had anything like these problems. Yes, the plastics come out a little wet, but I'm more than happy to accept that trade-off as the lack of heating element means I don't have to worry about them getting melted, and I can put them on the lower rack. And sometimes if something like oatmeal sits in there for several days, there may be a few bits left. But I consider that my own fault.

However, I did have some issues with a Bosch washing machine and found their customer service to be extremely lacking. It makes me a bit sad, because I think they have a great product when it's working but if something goes wrong it's very hard to get help.

I'm sure the OP has moved on and bought something else by now but I just wanted to say this for posterity.

    Bookmark   February 3, 2012 at 2:14PM
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twgg

I purchased a Bosch 800 series: SHV58E13UC last year. Moved into my house this March, and have hated this dishwasher ever since. Here are my reasons:

1. Anything stainless steel doesn't clean well, ie. cutlery and SS pots and pans, I have to clean these manually, even running them through 2-3 times doesn't clean it.

2. DW smells... I've checked the filter, it's relatively clean, but the smell is coming from the water left standing at bottom of DW.

3. While I like the cutlery rack, the middle rack tine spacing and angle isn't best use of space. Lots of weird space that's left empty. And the bottom rack has such huge spacing that I can't put smaller items without it falling through.

4. No heater!!! While I didn't think this would be much of an issue (ie. I never used the heater option on my old dishwasher) dishes seems to be more wet than my old dishwasher. I rare ever got wet dishes in my old dishwaser and this one I have to wipe everything down! I'm also not sure if the lack of a heater inside the unit is responsible for the poor cleaning performance (see #1)

The only thing I like about the dishwasher is that its quiet, not a huge amount quieter than my old one, but noticeably. I had a top of the line GE from about 7 years ago (not SS interior).

I'm using Cascade 2-in-1 w Dawn packets... also tried Cascade Gel and Electrosol packets... nothing seems to work. I also have JetDry rinse agent. Also already enabled Bosch's extended dry option referenced above and also use Extra Scub/Auto almost exclusively to maximize water temp.

    Bookmark   June 6, 2012 at 3:38PM
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mojavean

twgg, your dishwasher has a heater, but it is a water heater, built inline with the interior plumbing of the machine. And there is without a doubt something wrong with it if it isn't getting your dishes clean.

You should wait until the machine is in the middle of the wash cycle, say 30 minutes in, and very carefully pop open the door just the slightest bit to stop the pump so you don't get sprayed. Then open the door. You should see steam coming out of that thing like nobody's business. If it isn't really hot and steamy, then you are not getting proper heating of the water.

Other things to look for would be clogs in the spray arms, a disconnected feed pipe (runs from the bottom of the machine up the back wall to the middle and/or upper spray arm. You should also ensure that there is nothing blocking the wash arms from turning. If all of these are okay, you should place a service call on the unit to have them check the pump, outlet hose, heater, etc. Also, I have had better luck using Finish Powerball or Quantuum tabs over the Cascade, so you might try a small pack of one of those. Best of luck!

    Bookmark   June 6, 2012 at 4:14PM
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markhuss

So Glad I found this forum. I bought my 800 series Bosch from Lowes and got a horrible "Wet Dog" smell the first night. It happens after I run a load and 1 minute after I open the door, it's bad - And it gets on the dishes. -- Have a water softener, had the Hot Water Tank Drained to make sure it wasn't a problem in the house. Replaced the Disposal 1 day before having the DW installed. The First tech was sent by Lowes said he did smell it and checked everything as "Okay". (we don't have an air gap btw). Then Lowes customer care said Bosch was told by the tech that there was no smell. Luckily, I had the Tech write that there was a smell on my receipt and they asked if they could send their own tech out before talking replacement. That guy was like the one Tress21 had -- he patted me on head and suggested that i (get this) add oil or grease to the dishes before washing since the phosphates have been removed. So thanks to this forum, I'm on hold with Lowes NOW telling them that it must leave my home no matter what it takes. I've never had to work for an appliance before that was to make my life easier. So THANK YOU. I needed your backup (or is that backbone?). Happy to say goodbye to this quiet but useless machine.

    Bookmark   September 10, 2012 at 10:49AM
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monicakm_gw

I'm sure Kitchen Aid no longer makes the KUDE60. I think mine is like 4 years old?? Anyway, a search on this forum will probably pull up the many posts about how thrilled beyond words I am with this dishwasher! After 4 years, it's still my favorite appliance I have EVER purchased and I've been purchasing appliances since 1979. Wow that year looks old! LOL I'm still amazed at how much I can get in it, how well it cleans, how quiet it is and the third rack is awesome :) The tines are well placed with several options to rearrange them. I removed the silverware basket and put my silverware on the third rack, opening up a huge slot for larger items. Paid just under $1000 (I think). I hope the current equivalent is just as good. I took my pots and pans and a large glass to the store to buy a Bosch. They didn't fit and the inside was surprisingly small.
Oh, I don't use the heated dry cycle. Opening the door at the end of the cycle (it doesn't have to be all the way open) will dry out the interior.
Monica
Monica

    Bookmark   September 11, 2012 at 11:02AM
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markhuss

OMG Monica, THANK YOU~~ You aren't going to believe that I went down to buy the kude50 YESTERDAY from Lowes after doing hours of research. I got them just before closing. When I read your post JUST NOW, I called and upgraded to the 60 and it cost about 1400 with everything (install etc). It's a chunk of change but the refund on my stinky Bosch makes it about $200 out of pocket. I am grateful for your post!!

    Bookmark   September 11, 2012 at 11:15AM
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monicakm_gw

markhuss, YAY!!! I know you'll love it :) That's what I've loved about GW forums for 10 years...so much to learn even if the thread is year and half old (and older).
I am surprised they still make the KUDE60. You'll love how adjustable the racks and tines are. They can move, be removed and adjust up and down. I changed over to Corelle dishes a few years ago since they're so much lighter and don't chip. Another plus is how well they fit in the dishwasher. Hope to read that you're in love with your new dishwasher :)

    Bookmark   September 11, 2012 at 9:05PM
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markhuss

I hope it's the same one...It may be the updated model. I posted a link below. Thank you again. I'm definitely going to follow up.

Here is a link that might be useful: Kitchen Aid Kude60xxxx

    Bookmark   September 11, 2012 at 9:14PM
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Cozysmom

Oh my, I just read most of this forum and am glad to know I am not alone. My Bosch dishwasher is brand new and smells so bad. We end up hand washing just to avoid having to open the dishwasher! I called Bosch to ask why and got an attitude from their representative. She said to use ammonia to get rid of a build up in my machine but my machine is brand new! I asked about returning it and Bosch does not do anything for individual customers and that I need to go back to the store that sold it to me. What a problem this is and I paid a lot of money for what I thought was a premium machine. It is quiet and STINKY. The smell from the dishwasher makes us all sort of sick to our stomachs. I was told by Bosch that I needed to do this and to do that with dishes sitting in the machine for a day. I was told it was our habits of when to wash or run the machine. Interestingly enough, we had a wonderful old dishwasher for 16 years without a single odor and we didn't rinse and hold or run the machine everyday. My daughter wants to find our old machine and get it back. We are all very upset. Do NOT get a Bosch!

    Bookmark   October 22, 2012 at 3:08PM
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monicakm_gw

It must have been a great dw at one time but I know that the last few years there's been more and more complaints.
If you get a new one, I highly recommend that Kitchenaid KUDE60. You'll find plenty of information on this forum.
Good luck.

    Bookmark   October 22, 2012 at 3:52PM
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markhuss

So- Here's where I'm at: They ordered the KUDE60 and it still isn't here. It's been since my last post sept 11. It's such a long drawn out story it's not worth the "ink" but it should be here in about 7 more days! In the meantime, I've learned some things about the bosch to help keep the stink down:

1. run in normal mode only and open the door as soon as it's done
2. after you run a load, if you start smelling "That Smell" run the entire cycle again without soap (you can peek in and see that there is still soap in there (eww).
So far, we've managed to keep the smell at bay but I seriously can't wait for this machine to be out of here. I think the only reason I got to trade mine in was I put the pressure on Lowes to honor their 90 days return. Ill keep you posted on the KUDE60

    Bookmark   October 22, 2012 at 4:10PM
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markhuss

My Kude60 Kitchen Aid arrived today! OMG... I know I could just be doing a self fulfilling prophecy thing here but let me tell you - The drawers are totally gliding, like they're on Ice, no side to side shuffle to get them out! And they do the up and down thing like an elevator with the push of a button. Am I too happy to see my Bosch leaving? I can't remember, I didn't even wave as the technician strapped it like Hannibal Lector to the dolly and wheeled it out! Me and the KUDE60 are going to be best friends...I can just feel it. But then, if this is the excitment of my day, what kind of review can you really trust me with? LOL I will let you know. Thanks again for the tip, Monicakm!!!

Here is a link that might be useful: Here it is the KUDE60

    Bookmark   October 25, 2012 at 2:53PM
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monicakm_gw

YAY! So glad to read of your initial thoughts! Yes, those racks do glide reallly nice :) Wait till you start figuring out all the different ways you can arrange the racks. I've never used the silverware basket. Took it out the first day. All my silverware goes on top. If I have any overflow, it goes in the corner caddy on the bottom rack. Favorite appliance EVER :) Favorite detergent is Finish Quantum. Keep us up to date on what you think of it's washing abilities. Lot bigger on the inside than your Bosch too I bet :)
Monica

    Bookmark   October 25, 2012 at 3:18PM
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markhuss

I know this isn't helping you to love your Bosch, but I just wanted to follow up. The Kitchen Aid is amazing and absolutely ZERO smell. Thank you Monicakm and Garden Web. I mention you in my blog.

Here is a link that might be useful: the picture of the New Dishwasher

    Bookmark   October 27, 2012 at 12:54PM
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nerdyshopper

Markhuss: What flavor of KUDE 60did you purchase. I googled that model and got a few price comparison forums. On one I found a version of KUDE 60 (SXSS) for only $899.98 plus about $48 shipping. Te site was pcrichard if you are interested. I was going to order a Bosch 800 when my old Maytag gave up the ghost. I am so glad you posted your experiences at the forum and got the advice from Monicakm. Thank you both.

    Bookmark   October 28, 2012 at 7:47PM
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monicakm_gw

Ohhhhhh, that's wonderful news! You sound very happy with your choice :) Congrats!

    Bookmark   October 29, 2012 at 6:24PM
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new_2_nj

Markhuss - how's the noise level of the KA compared to the Bosch? I'm nearly sold on the KA, but I know how utterly quiet the Bosch's are and it's tempting.

    Bookmark   December 8, 2012 at 5:12PM
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Rebecca8000

I had this problem AND FIXED IT, thanks in part to this posting. First, I fixed the hose coming out of the dishwasher and into the food disposal to make it elevated (see posting from February 9, 2011) but secondly - and best of all - I realized you have to seal down the tray and filter at the bottom of the dishwasher by aligning the two blue arrows. THIS IS WHAT KEEPS THE DIRTY WATER FROM COMING BACK UP. I am a new woman. Whew!

    Bookmark   April 29, 2013 at 9:30AM
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AmyInNH

Bought a new Bosch in 2012, also finding it to be junk. The smell eventually goes away. The unclean dishes is still a problem 8 months later. Don't like the fine mesh filter that needs to be cleaned often. Detest the poor tine layout, not accommodating for bowls, pots, pans, large serving dishes.
Also, for the first time ever, glass is coming out with white haze on them - same detergent, same water source.
Shame on them for such low quality - Germans used to be the best at engineering products.

    Bookmark   May 1, 2013 at 6:25PM
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monicakm_gw

I get these updates via email. Rebecca, that's GREAT if you figured out the Bosch stink! A lot of people are going to be so thankful.

Amy, I'm sorry your Bosch is such a disappointment. It's what I went after but my larger glasses wouldn't fit, some pots and pans wouldn't fit and it looked so tiny inside. Like you I didn't like the tine layout either. I can honestly say, 110% that my KitchenAid KUDE60 is the best appliance I've ever bought! And I tell it that at least twice a week! LOL If you're looking to replace the Bosch, take look at KUDE.
Monica

    Bookmark   May 1, 2013 at 7:23PM
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