MIele dishwasher gurgling sound

rovermarkJanuary 31, 2014

Hello,

I am new to this forum - I am replacing most of the kitchen appliances with Miele ones.

I bought a Miele G5815 SCi Topaz dishwasher which was installed by a Miele installer. The machine will make quite loud gurgling sounds, when it first starts and at other times.

I understand MIele dishwashers are quite (this model is rated Q4), but the gurgling sounds defeat what should be a quite dishwasher.

Is there anything wrong with this?

Please see the picture for the manner in which the drain was installed.

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weedmeister

we need to see more to the right. And perhaps higher up.

    Bookmark   January 31, 2014 at 9:07PM
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fauguy

Mine makes a slight "gurgling" sound when it first starts to fill with water, most likely some air trapped in the water line, but it stops after about 10 seconds, and then I just hear the water filling. After that, I can hear some of the water spraying if I'm in the kitchen, but walking a few feet a away I can hardly hear it.
Does the gurgling happen only when it is filling with water, or while it is spraying?
When mine drains, I can hear a small "rattling" sound some times. The tech that came out a few years ago said that is the metal ball in the non-return valve. He opened it up and showed it to me. The metal ball is weighted so that drained water doesn't return back into the unit. But while it is draining, the force of the water has to lift the ball up, and causes it to rattle around some in the valve, but this is only while draining, 15 seconds.

    Bookmark   February 1, 2014 at 2:16AM
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rococogurl

Was the old dishwasher removed and the Miele installed in the same space or are the cabinets new?

    Bookmark   February 1, 2014 at 9:17AM
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kaseki

Guessing at what is on the right, I would worry that this installation violates code. There are two allowed methods: The most common is to plumb the drain to a garbage disposal. On the way there the hose should be raised to the top of the cabinet inside height. Some localities will require an air vent at the peak. The second method that I used for my kitchen reno and learned about here or on the Kitchen Forum, is to plumb to an open stand pipe (looks like a clothes washer drain) that has an appropriate trap. Standpipe configuration has to meet code. If the water enters the standpipe so that it flows down the interior side to the standpipe trap, it will be quite silent, even though the distance is a minimum of 18 inches.

kas

    Bookmark   February 1, 2014 at 11:48AM
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rovermark

Thanks for all the responses.

A picture of the complete set-up is attached. It drains into the 3/4 inch T-connector into the sink drain. There is no trap however. This is identical to the Kenmore dishwasher set-up that was there before, in the same cabinet under the counter in my kitchen. I had replaced the 1/8 inch T-shaped connector (professional plumber job) as per Miele recommendations.

There is no garbage disposer attached. There is no difference in the manner the Kenmore dishwasher was plumbed before, the the plumber did not comment on anything being amiss.

The noise only happens when it fills with water, sometimes it is very loud. I use my dishwasher once a week.

This gurgling noise however never happened with my Kenmore dishwasher. The noise can be so loud that it startles people who are sitting in the living room. I did use my Kenmore once every 2-3 days however.

The installation was done by Miele, but that does not mean anything, as they are only responsible for hooking it up and screwing it in, and placing the panel, nothing more.

Any comments or suggestions?

    Bookmark   February 1, 2014 at 6:05PM
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rococogurl

If the Miele replaced a Kenmore and the size of the opening was not reduced slightly, you will hear the dishwasher. That might well be the issue.

Reducing the size of the opening would not fall into the realm of Miele's installation. It would need to be done prior to the install. The dealer should have mentioned that the Miele requires a 23-5/8" opening -- not a standard 24" opening but may not have?

I've lived with a machine installed like that for long time and I'm accustomed to it now.

This post was edited by rococogurl on Sun, Feb 2, 14 at 8:39

    Bookmark   February 1, 2014 at 7:46PM
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kaseki

a) Yes, the Miele should be installed into a cabinet space that meets its requirements, and that includes using a thin piece of spacer material when the space is 24-inches. Besides avoiding dishwasher side distortion, the better fit will reduce noise.

b) Given that the Miele has a drain pump, I'm not worried about backflow, the reason for the various relevant code rules. However, I wonder where in that image (or near the image) the sink trap is.

c) My Optima starts by first doing a pump out in case there is much water in the unit. Are you hearing that, or are you hearing the water filling the unit?

kas

    Bookmark   February 2, 2014 at 10:25AM
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xedos

drain looks fine - assuming the p-trap is just below the the tee that the DW is hooked to.

The very first thing a miele does when a program is selected and started is to run the drain pump. Doesn't matter which program is selected or what model you have, the pump activating is the first thing that happens.

rover - do you hear that same sound towards the end of a cycle, after it has run for an hour + ???

agree with previous folks - the 3/8 gap can make a huge difference in what you hear from these units.

    Bookmark   February 2, 2014 at 12:56PM
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rovermark

Thanks for the comments.

The dishwasher space was reduced by adding the relevant wood spacer - it is installed correctly, with no gap, and in manner specified by MIele, by screwing it to the right and left side of the cabinet frame.

I have run two Rinse & Hold cycles to identify when the noise happens. It is not related to water filling the machine, nor the operation of the machine while washing. Rather, it is at the beginning or the end when the water in pumped into the drain

I have not run a full cycle yet to identify if this occurs each time it pumps into the drain. It is not the sound of the pump. It is the sound of water entering the drain.

The machine operation is fine. No noises from the machine operation.

Assuming this is the pump draining, what can I do to prevent this? The Kenmore never did had this gurgling water sound. I am attaching two pictures (the full-set up) and the next post the P-trap.

This post was edited by rovermark on Sun, Feb 2, 14 at 15:05

    Bookmark   February 2, 2014 at 2:58PM
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rovermark

Please see the previous post - this is the P-trap - there is no problem here that I can tell.

    Bookmark   February 2, 2014 at 3:00PM
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whirlpool_trainee

If the sound happens at the end of the drain cycle then it is related to the plumbing. It could be that the Miele drains differently than the Kenmore. We had constant gurgling noises in our old kitchen when our Bosch drained. Never owned a Miele, so can't comment on that.

My grandma has a Miele and hers drains quietly. It does, however, make a noticeable sound when water first enters the plastic tank attached to the left side of the dishwasher. Must be air trapped inside the complex channeling.

Alex

    Bookmark   February 2, 2014 at 5:24PM
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weedmeister

My suggestion would be to post the last two pictures on the plumbing forum and see what they have to say about it.

    Bookmark   February 2, 2014 at 6:48PM
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dadoes

Closing the sink drain stoppers while the dishwasher is running should have an effect on muffling the gurgling of the draining water.

    Bookmark   February 2, 2014 at 9:02PM
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rovermark

Thanks for the suggestions. If there is nothing wrong with the dishwasher, and no problem has been identified in my setup, I will live with this as part of normal household sounds.

    Bookmark   February 2, 2014 at 10:29PM
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xedos

Last picture tells the whole story.

You are hearing the the water rush down the pipe before it hits the p-trap and the cushioning/damping the water there provides.

The miele pump is pretty powerful, way more than the kenmore.

Do post that pic over in the plumbing forum for their take. I would not set up my own plumbing that way - but that doesn't mean yours isn't proper or to code. I'd have the DW hose connected to a p-trap (strictly not required - but makes for the utmost in silence) and I would not have the main p-trap under the floor - too far away.

    Bookmark   February 2, 2014 at 10:44PM
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kaseki

I'm pretty sure, since I looked it up for my own hopeful use, that the trap weir is too far away from the sink drain. I don't have time now to dig into the code to find the correct paragraph, but it would have been a violation of the IPC to do exactly what you have in the photos. That code may not apply in your locale, but I concur that water running down that far could easily separate from the pipe sides and gurgle as it hits the trap reservoir.

If the pipe were slanted it probably would be hard to hear. Dampening the pipe with materials for that purpose may not do much because the noise is probably propagated up to the sink within the pipe.

kas

    Bookmark   February 3, 2014 at 10:50AM
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kaseki

As noted above, the IPC may not apply, but to complete my comment, here are some relevant IPC codes.

Per 1002.1 Fixture traps. The distance between a sink drain (bottom of sink) and the trap weir (height of water in trap) must be less than or equal to 2 feet.

Per 802.1.6 Domestic dishwashing machines.
Discharge through an air gap or an air break into one of the following:
o A standpipe
o A waste receptor
o One of the following connections with one of the configurations
- - Connections
x x x A wye-branch fitting on the tailpiece of the kitchen sink
x x x The dishwasher connection of a food waste grinder
- - Configurations
x x x Use a deck mounted air-gap
x x x Raise the waste line and fasten it to one of the following
.............Underside of sink rim
.............Underside of counter

This latter requirement seems to be missing from the configuration photographed. (And, obviously, a good way of tabbing in the message form is missing from my knowledge base.)

kas

    Bookmark   February 4, 2014 at 10:48AM
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rovermark

Thanks - that makes very much sense. A powerful pump with a wider diameter machine drain hose, with the water rushing down would cause this noise, given the trap is so low (actually below the floor and accessible from the basement only).

When my basement will be done, I will have the plumber look into this.

Thanks for the comments above.

    Bookmark   February 4, 2014 at 7:17PM
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kaseki

My guess is that the two-foot limitation is to minimize the possibility of a slug of water gaining so much momentum that it sweeps through the trap and leaves it too low to perform its sealing function. However, in that case, the distance limitation with a garbage disposal should be from the disposal drain point, not the sink bottom, but this doesn't appear to be in the code.

Anyway, using a fairly quiet disposal such as the Evolution, and tying the dishwasher drain to it might end yield an overall quieter configuration, and even if the trap still violates the two foot rule the risk of trap sweep out would seem to be minimal.

kas

    Bookmark   February 5, 2014 at 1:49PM
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weedmeister

The other thing is that Y-fitting where the dw drain hose is connected is to be vertical and the first thing on the sink (either one) tail piece.

    Bookmark   February 5, 2014 at 9:08PM
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