A little annoyed with Miele

grumpydaveJanuary 12, 2012

My new dishwasher was just installed this morning by Miele "Concierge" Service. There are a couple things about their service that annoyed me.

First, their installation fee is twice what anyone else would charge but if you don't pay it they cut your warranty in half. That's on top of the $95 "Concierge Delivery" fee. They're really hiding the true cost of their dishwashers in the add-on fees to appear more competitive.

When contacting Miele to arrange the install they asked a series of questions to make sure the space was ready. Is the opening big enough? Is there a working sink nearby? Is there power? etc. One question was...

"Is there a hole in the sink cabinet to pass the hoses and electrical cord?"

No, these are new cabinets.

"You'll need to cut the hole before we arrive."

Why do I need to cut the hole? You're installers will know exactly where the hole needs to be and how big. They should cut it.

"No, you'll have to cut it yourself."

What am I paying you for?

[she laughs it off and moves on]

Remember the question about whether the sink was working? Well it is but the plumber left the tee for the D/W off so that we could turn the water on. I even bought a tee and had it ready for them to install. This morning...

"There's no valve to connect the dishwasher to. We won't be able to connect to the water and complete the install.

[me hands them the tee I had bought just in case they didn't bring one]

"we can't touch the plumbing."

What am I paying you for? Any other appliance installer would install the tee and probably even supply it.

[me gets wrenches from garage, turns off valve, and installs tee]

Miele can call their service any fancy-pants name they want but the cost doesn't add up to the value. I've never had a Miele before. This new dishwasher better be all it's hyped up to be.

Maybe I'm just too grumpy!

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plllog

My relatives had a similar experience with a Miele oven and their "concierge" service. Total nimnuts that cost them a lot of money in repairs, which could have been prevented if the installers had proper experience and training. Oh, and that's not counting the big scratch they put in the cabinet.

    Bookmark   January 12, 2012 at 6:57PM
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MichelleDT

Thanks for posting this...I am considering two for my new build. Good to know now that the install will be more than other brands. What was the total for install? Of course, I realize it could vary by region - or maybe not.

    Bookmark   January 12, 2012 at 7:13PM
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antss

dave - a couple of points

Miele doesn't " cut " your warranty in half. You are offered an incentive to use their service. (1 years extension of the warranty) There is a difference, but it's pretty moot anyway as problems with a Miele generally happen outa the box or yeaaaars down the road after any warranty has expired.

The $95 is not hidden to make their DW's seem less costly. That's about what it costs to have an appliance delivered in U.S. these day. Delivery is not included when you buy a Bosch or KitchenAid. Now, the dealer you buy it from may choose to offer you "free" delivery or not - that's up to the dealer, but even if you are not charged it still costs the dealer $$$ and it has to come from your pocket or his.

The hole in the cabinet is kinda ridiculous, no reason they can't drill one. And I'd throw out anyone who wouldn't drill one.

The hookup is a different story, strictly speaking only a plumber with a license is able to cut into you home's plumbing and add a valve ,shutoff, tee, ect... Most "installers" won't have a plumber's license, so no shutoff, no hook up, is the party line.

The main goal of their service is not really to get your unit installed - they'd prefer that you or your plumber just get it done. However , these units are vastly different from typical DW's and Miele is really looking after their own interests with this.

If they can head off install mistakes at the start , they can eliminate/minimize manhours spent on the phone and warranty replacements/repairs.

I'm surprised they didn't ask you if there was a "receptacle" under the sink for them to plug in the unit to. The installer generally won't have an electrical license either.

So, the main focus of the "certified installer" is really to make sure the machine is leveled properly, the panel installed correctly , and the unit calibrated, and functions before he leaves.

Given that the new (current) generation has simpler hookups than the prior gens. - There is really little need to have a "certified" installer now. The only place that requires a bit of skill is making sure the panel aligns with the adjacent cabinetry properly AND in the planning so that your opening is sized correctly - 24" wide is not correct !

pllog - if that's the whole story, Miele should have covered the warranty repairs AND paid for the cabinet damage, and you relative should have INSISTED.

Are you guys in Canada by chance ?

    Bookmark   January 12, 2012 at 7:28PM
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grumpydave

The lady on the phone and two installers were all very pleasant. I have no personal issues with any of them or their levels of competency. It's just the silly little prep tasks that I had to do that I think they should have done. Especially for the price and even more so when they're trying to perpetuate this high-end image with the concierge name. If I hadn't anticipated them not having a $5 tee fitting I wouldn't have a working dishwasher right now.

The costs were:
$95 for delivery
$30 for removal of the old unit (which I needed back in September but not now)
$180 for installation

    Bookmark   January 12, 2012 at 7:33PM
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PRO
Sophie Wheeler

There isn't ANY appliance installer that would touch either your cabinets or your plumbing. It's a standard that only cabinet guys cut cabinets. Your installer should have cut the hole based on the DW specs. And, only a licensed plumber touches plumbing. Your plumbing should have been good to go with a two way valve under the sink. If you needed to use the sink, the secondary outlet could have been capped off until the DW install. Sure, you could have found a "handyman" to scratch up your cabinet with a hole saw and flood your sink cabinet and install your DW, but he wouldn't have the insurance to cover the damages.

The individual jobs are best left to the experts in their fields. Call them back to do the jobs that should have done in the first place.

    Bookmark   January 12, 2012 at 7:34PM
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plllog

Hollysprings, I'm sure that must vary by region. I've had store installers do the minor work that needed doing, and do it well.

Antss, not in Canada. USA. The store said that Miele was no longer allowing the store's Miele certified installers to do the installation (I assume to get the Miele approved installation warranty extension, but that's a guess). The concierge lady was an idiot who didn't know what she was talking about and didn't understand the explanations (coming from an elderly man, but one who has installed thousands of appliances in the course of his working life).

I wasn't there for installation, so I don't know which installer was which, but they required some modifications. Okay, this was a retrofit. Some trim had to be removed, the direct wiring changed to a socket, and things like that, so he went away. The next guy said the first guy didn't really know what he was doing. This one had other issues. Someone came back. Somewhere in there they took the oven in and out of the cavity and scratched the neighboring cabinet--more of a gouge, really. It was only after that that they decided it wouldn't work anyway. Something about the door opening. (I kick myself, thinking I should have guessed it, but I thought it would work, going by the measurements.)

I think the more experienced installers from the (high end, fancy-pants) store would have figured out that last part before making such a mess that requires a day or two from the carpenter to fix, and having to have the electrician out again to restore the direct wire. That part is a toss up. You don't always get the store's most experienced installer either. It's just massively frustrating after dealing with the "concierge" who was just a receptionist and didn't actually know what she was talking about, either.

If you're going to insist that only your people can do a good job, you'd better make sure that they really are better than the quality of installers and technicians that your clientele are accustomed to.

At least they issued the refund promptly. They refused responsibility for the rest.

Grumpydave, I don't blame you for being grumpy. I don't blame you at all.

    Bookmark   January 12, 2012 at 8:12PM
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livebetter

I'm in Canada and had Miele install a new dw a few months ago. They took out a KA and put in a Miele. The installer had to add receptacle as the KA was hardwired. He also had to cut a larger hole in the cabinet for the crazy big Miele thing (I think to prevent floods). One guy did it all no issues.

DW is great grumpydave!

    Bookmark   January 13, 2012 at 1:23AM
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sandy808

If you paid that much for installation then that is exactly what you should have gotten...an installation. Bringing a dishwasher into the house and shoving it into the spot is not an installation. It is a delivery.

I have always had my dishwasher hooked up by the delivery people if I asked for and paid for an installation. Even little ole Sears Roebuck does that, and certainly not for anywhere what you paid.

I'd also be grumpy, and it would leave a bad taste in my mouth for the company after paying what you did.

    Bookmark   January 13, 2012 at 6:13PM
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booger3914

$305 dollars to deliver and install a dishwasher is obscene. I just had a Kitchenaid installed by a local appliance store for $100.

    Bookmark   January 13, 2012 at 8:29PM
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grumpydave

Just to clarify a couple things...

There was no "cutting into my home's plumbing" or anything like that. They didn't need to install a valve, cut a pipe, or even turn off the water to the house. All they had to do was screw the tee onto an existing valve and then screw their hose onto the tee. They were perfectly willing to do the latter, but not the former. If they really can't touch the tee for professional licensing reasons then they shouldn't be screwing on the hose either as there's no functional difference IMO.

I do understand Miele's desire to make sure the install is done properly. I was willing to pay the premium for that too despite my KD's assurance that her own installer is Miele certified. I just think they could have done a more complete job for the price. I paid them to install a dishwasher. If the people they send can't finish the install for lack of skill or professional certification then they're sending the wrong people. Just by coincidence one of the installers did happen to be a licensed electrician by trade, though I'm sure he wouldn't have been allowed to do any actual electrical work if needed.

BTW, as for drilling the hole myself... My reaction was based on the last dishwasher that I installed. It was very particular about where the hole should be and how big. There was a very small area it had to be positioned in. Back in September when I ordered this dishwasher Miele hadn't yet posted any specification guides for the new models on the website and I had no idea where the hole should go. The rep walked me through the website to where the specification guides are now available.

Finally, the notion that any handyman would scratch up and flood my cabinets trying to drill a hole or fit a tee is ridiculously sensationalist.

    Bookmark   January 13, 2012 at 9:27PM
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asolo

Like several others, I would not expect "normal" installation to include electrical, plumbing, or cabinet-mod. I think the installers should find all that ready to go. For example, where I live if you don't have a 110v receptacle back there ready to plug into, they won't do the install. They will not do any hard-wire install of any appliance.

IMHO the only legitimate gripe is the price. Assuming all this other stuff is up to snuff and ready to receive the machine, $305.00 for the package is an outrage.

Willing to be corrected on this. Is there some unknown-to-me complexity with Meile DW's that can justify it? From postings here to date, I've not had that impression. Nor have I gotten the impression that the Miele installers themselves are any better than anybody else.

    Bookmark   January 13, 2012 at 11:26PM
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fauguy

When I purchased my Miele Diamante Plus in Summer 2010, it was delivered and installed by a local company called New York Minute that most high-end appliance dealers use in the South FL area. I believe the delivery and installation was around $120-140.

Since they are a "Miele Certified Installer", this doubled my manufactures warranty from 1 year to 2 years. But I still purchased the extended warranty from Miele, which is $250.

I would never pay $95 for delivery, $30 for removal, and $180 for installation.

I had the the new kitchen remolded in 2006, and had a GE and then Elextrolux dishwasher. The holes in the cabinets were drilled by the cabinet installer at at that time. Even though my cabinet width is 24" (since this was to accommodate a GE Profile that I had purchased), the New York Minuet guys had no issues installing the Miele in that space, even though technically it's slightly wider than it should be, but since it's stainless on the front, it looks fine. If it were panel-ready for wood facing, then there would be a slight gap between the wood panel on the Miele and the wood cabinet doors on either side.

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.newyorkminute.biz/

    Bookmark   January 13, 2012 at 11:29PM
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grumpydave

I wouldn't expect any electrical work either, unless the dishwasher is sold to be hard-wired.

I wouldn't expect any plumbing work that involved turning off the water or soldering anything. Screwing a tee onto an existing valve is a pretty simple task though. Literally no different than screwing their hose onto the tee.

I do expect them to drill the appropriate hole in the side of the cabinet when needed. It ain't that hard.

I didn't notice them doing anything particularly complex or unique to Miele except setting the water hardness level in the menus.

    Bookmark   January 13, 2012 at 11:39PM
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livebetter

I disagree with the comments about electrical work.

I renovated my kitchen 10 years ago. Several months ago I wanted to replace my 10 year old KA with a new Miele. My KA was noisy and I wanted a much quieter unit.

No one was doing any work here. Would I be expected to go out and hire an electrician to put in the plug for the Miele and a handyman to cut the larger hole in the cabinet?

That probably would have deterred me from buying the Miele.

The nice thing was, I didn't have to do any of that. They showed up and removed my KA and installed my Miele (as I would expect it to be done).

I think Miele Canada is doing it better - customer service. Why make it harder for the customer than is necessary.

Am I missing something?

    Bookmark   January 14, 2012 at 10:19AM
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Brent

My experience is the same as livebetter, and I also live in Canada.
One installer showed up and did the whole installation; not much in the way of plumbing, a hose to the garberator and water supply (mind you the hole he made in the cabinet was huge); and he changed from a KA to the Miele electrical hookup.

The only problem that I had with the install, it looked like the toe kick from Miele was cut with a chain saw. I took a blade and some files and smoothed out the rough cut edge.

    Bookmark   January 14, 2012 at 10:23AM
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dadoes

Seems procedures and policies have changed in the years since I worked for an appliance dealer. I don't think we did any cabinet cutting, but we surely did electrical, water, and drain connections.

I would *never* pay $180 for a dishwasher install under the circumstances that have been described. I wouldn't pay for a dishwasher install at all when the cavity exists and electrical and plumbing connections are present ... that is, it's either replacement of an existing unit or a new install that's already cut and plumbed. Some years ago I swapped out a 1980s Frigidaire for a 1990s KitchenAid at my first house. Then I swapped the KA for a DishDrawer. Then I put the KA back when I sold the house, pulled a new GE out of my new house and put the DD in, then pulled the KA and put the GE in at the old/sold house. Several years later the KA was swapped for an old Whirlpool at my sister's house. Also installed a new Whirlpool about 10 years ago for my neighbor. There were no payments made to anybody for any of these installs, LOL.

    Bookmark   January 14, 2012 at 11:45AM
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live_wire_oak

As a KD, I would be hopping mad if my installer did not do what he get's paid to do and cut the access hole in the cabinet. I do not want anyone else attempting to modify any kitchen cabinetry! I have seen way too many hacks cut holes in cabinets and the veneer on the backside tears out and you have a gaping ragged unsightly hole that is larger than needed and ugly to boot.

For liability reasons, which may be less of an issue in Canada, I would also not allow anyone but a licensed GC, or plumber or electrician to perform plumbing or electrical components. If the outlet exists, then an appliance installer can install. But, if it needs to be hardwired, or a new outlet needs to be run, then you are not ready for a DW install. You need an electrician. And if the correct plumbing under the sink, including both supply and drain, does not readily exist for hookup, then you need a plumber to create that readiness for the appliance installer. Any appliance installer that performs work that ought to be done by a licensed trade is risking a pretty big lawsuit if any of that work goes wrong.

Yes, I've known of instances where installers didn't do the job correctly and the entire home was flooded. The homeowner's insurance had to cover it, because the installer was not covered for doing work that should have been performed by a licensed plumber. Yes, the installer was sued by the homeowner's insurance. I don't have any idea what the outcome of that suit was, as the company went out of business. But, that is why most appliance installers in the lawsuit happy USA will need the site ready to go rather than modifying it in any way.

    Bookmark   January 14, 2012 at 12:46PM
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dimitrig

I had a Miele dishwasher installed in November of 2011. I was very unhappy with their installation as well.

Like grumpydave, I was asked a lot of questions I did not know the answers to: hot or cold hookup, hardwired or plug, and so on. I didn't know the answers because my old dishwasher was still hooked up.

When the installer came out he was useless. All he wanted to do, basically, was level the dishwasher, plug it in, and leave. I don't need him for that.

Turns out I did need a hole cut in the cabinet (I had one but the Miele needed it located differently) and I did need some electrical. He also could not install the kickplate because it didn't quite fit. He didn't do any of that. I had to call out someone else to do it.

Let's be frank and say that Miele's "installation and delivery" is really just delivery in many cases. I had to pay $100 to someone else to do the actual installation later on (after the Miele guy had left).

The installer my appliance dealer uses for every other brand does minor electrical and plumbing (to an extent). In fact, that installer said they used to contract for Miele before Miele brought it all back in-house.

I love my dishwasher, but I hate Miele's rip-off concierge service. All I got for my money was the dishwasher delivered, my old one hauled away, some free salt and rinse aid, a quick tutorial, and a lot of frustration.

I think part of the problem is that Miele mostly sells to new construction and not renovations or remodels. At least my appliance dealer said most of their sales are to architects, contractors, and designers rather than direct to homeowners as replacements. With new construction it's easy to make sure everything is in place and to spec in advance and if it is not what does a few days delay matter?

    Bookmark   March 13, 2012 at 4:07AM
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lannie59

I have to agree with live_wire_oak as to who prepares for installation of DW or appliances. Today everyone is researching appliances online trying to purchase the best for their budget. Usually online for each appliance is a download for installation requirements. If your situation doesn't fit these requirements the proper trade should be hired to prep for new appliance. Appliance stores will usually deliver the appliance for free or a nominal fee and unbox it for your inspection and that is it. If they recommend an installer he or she is usually a plumber or electrician who is qualified, insured, and charges for his expertise. In the Miele case most hookups must be modified
and that takes time. Some owners can prep for new appliances , but the vast majority can't. If you make a deal for install ask who is doing the work and find out exactly what they will do for the fee. The new appliances are causing a lot of customers some real angst because of utility requirements. I see a lot of duel fuel stoves being sought and the specs on those may require gas to be moved and 220v electrical lines to be run. The range may be pricey ($5000-$10,000) , but the hookups could run into real $$$$.

    Bookmark   March 13, 2012 at 7:56AM
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meangoose

It sounds like what you really paid $180 for was a one year extended warranty. Maybe that's a good value and maybe it's not, but I wish that's what they'd call it if that's what it is.

The whole "concierge" thing makes me think of the Princess Bride. "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

    Bookmark   March 14, 2012 at 12:54AM
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aliris19

grumpydave: I, too, think you're justified in grumpiness! Meangoose does a mean summary: just so!

I'm guessing there have been and will be a lot of grumpy Miele customers over this. I suggest a quick phone call to complain about this disingenuous, overpriced "installation" service. I'm sure nearly 100% of their customers are miffed by it, so: if everyone complained they'd have some hard thinking to do about what they call this "service".

    Bookmark   March 15, 2012 at 2:13AM
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sjerin

I had a Meile installed (replaced a maytag,) a couple of years ago by a very competent installer, who works for the appliance store, not Miele. A month ago I noticed the dw was kind of cockeyed in its spot and soon after found a screw on the floor. I called the same guy and he came right out to fix it. It turns out the screws Miele uses are quite short and didn't do the job; he replaced with his own longer screws. He told me about the new "concierge service" that is required by the manufacturer, which will be taking some of his jobs away. What you all have described is disgusting to me. What a scam. (Where are you, antts? :) )

    Bookmark   March 15, 2012 at 8:30PM
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JJPrescott

I bought the Miele G5775 SCSF and paid the overpriced fee to have Miele do the install directly. This was for a new house. Just moved in and tried to use the dishwasher for the very first time. It immediately went to a lockout state with an error message, and will not even run the very first load. Called Miele and was told it would be 10 days before they could get a tech to even look at it (and I'm hoping he won't have to wait to order parts). Needless to say I'm not at all pleased moving into a new house with a new top-line (supposedly "reliable") dishwasher, then having to hand-wash dishes. In contrast, last year I bought a Whirlpool washer from Lowes; it also had a problem right away, but in that case Lowes had a tech at my house the very next day. IMHO Miele's so-called "Concierge Service" is a joke.

    Bookmark   June 23, 2013 at 1:13PM
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koles

I agree, the price for installation and delivery is ridiculous. But sometimes they run a promo which gives you a free 5 years warranty if you use their installation. Usually this warranty cost around 250.

    Bookmark   April 16, 2014 at 7:57PM
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clothespin

My experience with the concierge service was TOTALLY different. In fact, I couldn't be more pleased. But, you all had me very worried so I wanted to share my experience so that others would know that there is good service with this.

I have a new house (though it's been 2 1/2 years since it was built) and while there was the plumbing and electrical ready for a dishwasher, we still had not put one in. There were no holes in the cabinet to get into the dishwasher space. Based on what I'd read above, I was very concerned that the guys would not make the needed hole and I would be left without my machine.

So, they arrived and upon getting to my front door, put on booties over their shoes so as to not track in dirt into the house. I've never ever had a service team do that. I quickly dispelled with the need for that but it was nice none the less.

They put down a mat in front of the dishwasher hole and then brought in their own Miele vacuum and drill and made the needed hole in the lower back corner of the cabinet under the sink and then vacuumed up the mess. My husband doesn't even do that! (I'm still working on training him.)

The other guy was outside in the truck getting my machine ready... when he got it on the dolly up to the front door, the other guy took 3 moving blankets and put them on my floor in front of the dolly... moving the blankets as needed so that the dolly and the machine never once touched my floor but always rolled on blankets.

They took forever installing it, making sure it was exactly centered in the space (European units are a tad smaller than American) and perfectly leveled. They tested the drain and water connections repeatedly to make sure there were no leaks. They cleaned the front of the machine after taking the yellow sticker off and then showed me how to use the machine. Running two rinse cycles to test for leaks too.

They left a bottle of rinse aide (after filling the container in the machine first) and a box of washer tabs... Since it's Christmas week, I had some cookies bagged up waiting for them to take home with them... and after that, they gave me another box of tabs! Not what I expected but it was very nice.

All told, they spent 1 1/2 hours at my house installing my machine. I did not get the top of the line - I got the basic black with a silverware basket, so this was just their basic service and not catering to some hoity toity person - I'm a normal stay at home mom.

I couldn't be happier with their service or the local appliance store that I bought it from. The local store called this morning making sure things went well. There's a reason I buy from small local businesses - the service is so much better than the big box stores! The local guys will still service my machine if needed but with the 5 year warranty that came with it...

My only suggestion is that you install a light switch above your cabinet that will turn the power on and off to the dishwasher. So much easier to do before the unit is installed... This is an easy way to keep toddlers from pushing buttons on the machine! (And is what most European kitchens do to all of their appliances.)

So, maybe it's the local crew or maybe you all had crummy luck, but I am very happy with my service so far. I had a GE kitchen in the last house, all new, and the service to fix the new fridge was horrifying. It never was completely fixed... I'll go German made any day and with a local store who actually cares what I think and will do what it takes to make things right.

    Bookmark   December 23, 2014 at 11:56AM
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practigal

Grumpydave,
Are you still following this thread? It has been two years, how has the dishwasher been in this time period?

    Bookmark   December 23, 2014 at 12:24PM
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laundryvet

Big box seller was up front with me on what they could and could not do, and the Miele dishwasher does have unique installation requirements not common in the US including a narrower install width, an electrical outlet requirement (as opposed to a hard wire), and an odd-sized discharge hose that does not play well with most through-the-counter siphon breaks, often solved by a high loop approach.

In another thread I noted it was an all day job for a mechanical engineer to install a Miele dishwasher by the time you remove the old unit (cut old hard plumbing out) and disconnect wiring, read the directions, buy the electrical outlet parts and new wiring at local home improvement store, install electrical outlet (was not easy and contracted an electrician for 30 minutes to get it in right and of course where the outlet had to be required new wiring and splitter box in the basement wiring), install the top trim, adjust the side jams, tie in the drain, and level it, and cut and install the plumbing adjustments in the basement with a couple of compression fittings.

So, if you are not technically inclined or unwilling to throw a day away doing the job yourself, you have to be receptive to the fees that come with doing jobs like this and an understanding that local licensing requirements require multiple guys to be involved doing an install that impacts cabinetry, plumbing, and electrical. By the way, most plumbers are more than willing to cut a hole in a cabinet, and they have excellent tools in the box of equipment for doing this quickly and efficiently.

$200-$250 to get the job done can be a bargain, I had $20 of electrical parts, $20 of plumbing fittings, and about $40 for an electrical contractor to pull it off, and I did the leg work up front to have all the parts on hand so it could be done in 30 minutes when I was paying the professional for his services.

It's unfortunate that it is so costly, but you are basically paying to insure your house does not flood or burn down due to the installation.

Laundryvet

    Bookmark   December 23, 2014 at 4:44PM
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