Frontenac Sterling Flatware

antiquesilverFebruary 4, 2010

Since this concerns silver more than cooking, I'm posting photos here rather than continuing in the cooking forum, for anyone interested in the various pieces in a place setting of 100 years ago.

The 1903 pattern is Frontenac by Simpson, Hall, & Miller & these are the place pieces, minus 15-20 that I don't have.

FORKS

L-R oyster(cocktail), child's(breakfast), pastry(may not be an old piece), salad, fish, dessert(luncheon), dinner.

KNIVES

L-R dinner, luncheon, orange(serrated top edge), fruit, butter.

SPOONS

L-R chocolate, demitasse, 5 o'clock(pm), teaspoon, dessert(oval soup or place spoon), gumbo.

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sweeby

Gorgeous!
What a lovely pattern, and to have such a variety...

I'd frame them!

    Bookmark   February 4, 2010 at 4:32PM
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antiquesilver

But then I couldn't use them!

    Bookmark   February 4, 2010 at 4:50PM
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DLM2000

Just beautiful! It impresses me no end that not only do you know the purpose of each but that you USE them. I know, I know - there's no reason NOT to use them, but in my house it just doesn't happen - I reach for the stainless :-/

Now I want to pull out the pieces I haven't identified and get some input.

    Bookmark   February 4, 2010 at 5:05PM
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lindac

Beautiful pattern....and you have been very diligent to find so many pieces!
But no boullion spoons?

Thesea re the spoons I have bought in the pattern I am collecting for my grand daughter...it's Gorham Wreath. There are also smaller spoons...larger than demi tasse....but I haven't bought any.
Linda c

    Bookmark   February 4, 2010 at 5:12PM
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antiquesilver

I have bouillons in other patterns but, for whatever reason, I've never found any in Frontenac at a great price. All Frontenac place spoons tend to be on the light side -no idea why since forks were made in 2 or 3 weights - so they don't appeal to me that much.

dlm - pull out those pieces. We've shown you ours, now we want to see yours!

    Bookmark   February 4, 2010 at 6:42PM
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Marigene

OMG! You have a wonderful collection! I need to get busy looking in every antique shop I can find! I just love the pattern...I am happy with the few pieces I have...too bad it is so pricey compared to other sterling patterns!

    Bookmark   February 4, 2010 at 7:05PM
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bostonpat_gw

That is a beautiful pattern! I read your posting on The Cooking Forum and had to check the pattern on EBAY - I might just have to start a collection.....

    Bookmark   February 4, 2010 at 10:54PM
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Fori is not pleased

Competition, Marigene! Look out!! =)

I really like the Alvin "Orange Blossom" which is a similar style (and there is a special place in my heart for citrus flowers--the perfect plant for looks, produce, and SMELL). Maybe I should pick up a butter knife or some serving piece. Those old patterns are too expensive to not use, but they're also too darn nice to put in the dishwasher, so if I had a set I don't know if I could use it. Let my inlaws touch it? Nevah!!!

    Bookmark   February 4, 2010 at 11:51PM
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antiquesilver

I've done my job as an enabler - prior to this, my SIL was my only victim, LOL!

Most of this was bought on ebay over the last 10 years but beware - most of the sellers on ebay having multiple pieces of Frontenac & other old patterns are replacement services selling new pieces. The finishing is poor & they have no oxidation so they're ultra shiny & flat looking. Most of the newer serving pieces have knife handles with stainless findings (the business end) & there are a lot of spoons that have been sacrificed to become 'condiment' whatevers. If you look at Replacements, all items marked HC are these 'handcrafted' pieces. I try to buy monogrammed pieces because there's a better chance that they're old (& I like the engraving).

Marigene & Boston, if I get a chance this weekend, I'll photograph the serving pieces although by no means do I have everything. You'll be wiping drool off your keyboard!

Fori, Orange Blossom is another old pattern that's been manufactured recently & there's a lot of new stuff out there so the above warning applies just like Frontenac.

I'm still competition, too. I know there are all-silver fish knives out there somewhere, just waiting for my bid!

    Bookmark   February 5, 2010 at 1:06AM
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bostonpat_gw

Oh I wouldn't consider myself competition for antiquesilver ;) - I'm mainly interested compiling the basic place settings (famous last words!), I don't do a lot of entertaining, but I MUST have some of these pieces!

I'd love to see your other pieces antiquesilver - I'm drooling in anticipation!

    Bookmark   February 5, 2010 at 6:45AM
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antiquesilver

As promised, here are the serving pieces although there are quite a few more that I don't have.

SERVING FORKS

L-R Beef, Cold Meat, Vegetable?(may not be old production), Asparagus

SERVING SPOONS

Berry, Preserve, Jelly, Sugar, & a Tablespoon in front

FLAT SERVERS

Cucumber, Jellycake, Master Butter Knife, Cake Knife w/plated blade

LADLES - sorry, no soup or punch ladles!

Cream-old style, Cream, Gravy

FISH FORK & SLICE

SHORT HANDLED OLIVE SET

PICKLE & BUTTER FORKS

SUGAR & BONBON (tete-a-tete) TONGS

    Bookmark   February 6, 2010 at 2:39AM
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justlinda

    Bookmark   February 6, 2010 at 11:44AM
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bostonpat_gw

OMG - those are lovely pieces!

    Bookmark   February 6, 2010 at 1:25PM
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jaybird

WOWOWOWOWOW...those are gorgeous!! Thank you so much for posting!

    Bookmark   February 8, 2010 at 1:16PM
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antiquesilver

Glad y'all enjoyed the show. Old catalogs in the pattern are almost non-exsistent so if you don't see a private collection, you may never see some of the really rare pieces, or even know they're out there.

Slightly off topic, but apparently this thread somehow offended one GW member because I received an email - with the subject 'Frontenac'- containing nothing but a link to a long, boring video about a female dog. I replied that the link had nothing to do with silver or did I miss something; the response was "Nope - that's it". Soooooo, I guess I'm a b*tch unless there's another way of construing this! Certainly not the first time I've been referred to as such, but on an antiques forum?????? End of Vent.

    Bookmark   February 13, 2010 at 3:56AM
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DLM2000

That's odd - I just re-read the whole thread. Can't see what would get anyone's undies in a bunch but I guess ya never know! Was it someone who had contributed to the thread or just a lurker? Well, I enjoyed the show, thats for sure. And you got me to dig out a few things and get them polished up so your good deed was done!!! Which will lead me into my next 'can you help' post after I get some pictures. You know what they say about good deeds ..... ;-)

    Bookmark   February 13, 2010 at 7:57AM
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pris

I just re-read all of antiques posts and didn't see anything that could remotely be construed as offensive. What a shame there are people who have to rain on everyone's parade.

Just want to say thank you for all the pictures and info. This has been one of the most informative threads and I'm not even a silver buff. (I let the ex have all the silver in the divorce. I knew I wasn't going to polish it.) Thankfully, there was nothing anywhere near the beauty or value of those shown here.

    Bookmark   February 13, 2010 at 9:34AM
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lindac

Yeah....email snarking is definitly not nice...
She impressed me so much with all that lovely shiny stuff...I went and bought 2 yards of silver cloth!!
AND a storage box for some of the seldom used stuff!
Linda C

    Bookmark   February 13, 2010 at 10:27AM
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antiquesilver

Thanks for the support & dlm, I look forward to your thread!

    Bookmark   February 13, 2010 at 2:25PM
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justlinda

This is a fascinating and informative thread indeed. Surprising what one can learn from these posts. To the person that sent you the nasty email...."why don't you go sit in a corner all by yourself and have a pity party to celebrate your unhappiness".

    Bookmark   February 13, 2010 at 3:18PM
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sweeby

All I can think is that someone's jealous...
Of course, looking at that gorgeous silverware, that's not hard to imagine! ;-)

    Bookmark   February 13, 2010 at 6:56PM
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sheilajoyce_gw

I wonder if the fruit knife is a place setting's bread and butter knife for use with the bread plate.

    Bookmark   February 14, 2010 at 7:57PM
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antiquesilver

I guess the fruit knives were for the fruit & cheese course for paring anything other than citrus. The individual butter spreader is normally used with the bread plate & I've seen photos of a hollow handle version with a plated blade (a very blunt, rounded end) that was also made in this pattern.

    Bookmark   February 15, 2010 at 12:34AM
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Marigene

Wow, what a fantastic collection! I just "won" a berry spoon on eBay for a fairly good price. How many place setting do you have? I also have 4 of the bouillon spoons, but am thinking they may be the chocolate spoons, instead. Whatever, they are going to be good with the cream soup bowls I have that go with my china!

    Bookmark   February 20, 2010 at 9:41PM
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antiquesilver

Marigene, congratulations on the berry spoon; it's a handy size for a lot of things! Your bouillon spoons are probably just that - chocolate spoons are very small (really just a round-bowl version of a demitasse & only slightly larger than a salt spoon) & would be noticeably too small for soup. Lengthwise, a bouillon is a little shorter than the pm spoon.

How many place settings do you have?
I collect 12-15 various patterns & try to make up a full place setting of each of them but Frontenac is my husband's favorite (he's not so keen on the mixed idea) so he's amassed more place settings (for 'formal' occasions, his definition-not mine) than I ever would! Offhand, I know there are at least 8 dinner forks & 6-7 luncheon forks, 16-18 tsp or pm sized spoons, 6 oval soups/desserts, 8 salad forks, 3-4 gumbos, spreaders, citrus knives, & cocktail forks, 6 luncheon knives, 4-6 dinner knives, 6 fruit knives, & 1 fish fork. Oh, & 6 demis & 2 chocolate spoons. So I guess it's averages out to about 6.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2010 at 10:43PM
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Marigene

12-15 patterns, wow! I am impressed! What are some of the patterns? Tell your husband I think he has wonderful taste! He/you have such a wonderful collection of Frontenac! I checked and they are definitely bouillon spoons. I am having a hard time locating affordable salad forks, most of them are enough to break the bank!...I know they will show up sooner or later.

    Bookmark   February 22, 2010 at 5:26PM
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antiquesilver

Salad forks in any of the Art Nouveau patterns are scarce & expensive but part of the thrill of collecting is getting a good price. I try to keep SF to about $45-50 each; I think I may have paid about $75 for one in Durgin's Iris but that was the exception - & that was a bargain in that pattern.

If it has a floral design, there's an excellent chance that I have at least one piece of it! I like the aesthetic pattern as well but they tend to be way out of my bank book's reach.
Wallace - Carnation, Peony, Eton, Violet
Durgin - Bouquet (a whopping 2 pieces!), Iris
Gorham - Poppy
Simpson, Hall & Miller - Frontenac, Edgewood, Stratford
Sheibler - Fiorito
Alvin - Morning Glory
Reed & Barton - Intaglio, Les Cinq Fleur, La Parisienne
Wendt - Florentine (not a floral)
Wilkens & Sohne (German) - Crocus
JJ Hudson - Yetive
I'm sure I'm forgetting some, but that's a good sampling.

    Bookmark   February 22, 2010 at 7:06PM
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nanny2a

Antiquesilver, your pieces are just exquisite!!!!!!

    Bookmark   February 23, 2010 at 6:58PM
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antiquesilver

Replacements has an ebay buy-it-now auction for the elusive, individual, all-silver fish knife. At that price - or anything close to it - it won't be coming to my house. But they're rarely seen so it's nice to look at, LOL!

Here is a link that might be useful: Fish Knife

    Bookmark   February 28, 2010 at 2:59AM
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Fori is not pleased

Gee. You'd think they could throw in free shipping!

    Bookmark   March 2, 2010 at 11:22PM
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bostonpat_gw

Well Antiquesilver - you have gone and done it - I don't know whether to curse you or thank you! I am now the proud owner of a sugar spoon, a pickle fork, and 5 teaspoons in the Frontenac pattern and they are the prettiest pieces I have ever seen! I just love the detail of the pattern and the fact that the back is decorated as well! I am on the lookout for some dinner forks and gumbo spoons. The pieces are just gorgeous in your photos but in person,they are knockouts!
Thank you !
Pat

    Bookmark   March 7, 2010 at 6:01PM
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antiquesilver

Congratulations, Pat, now you have a Frontenac monkey on your back! My job is done - I only wish I got a dealers' cut from all of my junkies!

Did you get the pieces on ebay or at a show? I'm sure it won't be long before you have enough to set a beautfiful table. And the larger serving pieces are even more spectacular than the small ones. BTW, someone told me that they use the sugar spoons for ice cream spoons so if you see others at a good price, it may be a wise investment. Of course, I had 2 & had already sold the extra before I heard this, LOL!

    Bookmark   March 7, 2010 at 6:49PM
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bostonpat_gw

I bought one spoon on EBAY, the others I purchased online from different sellers at prices lower than what I saw on EBAY. I am really drawn to the serving pieces - they are so ornate. I had ice cream last night and it tasted so good with the silver spoon! LOL
I have to tell myself that it will be a hunt to get the pieces I want at a reasonable price, or else I'll be totaly impoverished!

    Bookmark   March 8, 2010 at 7:49PM
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zaadek_yahoo_com

I have this set as well. I am just short of a servie for 12 with 20 pieces per setting. I am short 3 iced tea spoons at this time. I did not bother to buy the pastry forks because they are new and not older pieces. I too, prefer monogrammed pieces because I feel they are older and appear to be better detailed. In regards to serving pieces,a t this time I have a total of 59. Thank god for ebay as I could not have done this otherwise.

    Bookmark   March 6, 2011 at 5:31PM
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antiquesilver

Hi Phillip - that's a lot of place & serving pieces! You've piqued our interest so now it's time to show & tell all.

    Bookmark   March 6, 2011 at 6:14PM
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sheilajoyce_gw

All of you have me drooling. I fell in love with old china and sterling as a girl when I helped unpack a maiden great aunt's things that had moved from her father's house to her sister's when her father died. Then the barrels moved from parsonage to parsonage over the years and had finally settled in the house in Evanston where my grandparents last lived. We unpacked this great aunt's Haviland china and other things, and I fell in love. I even recall some Remember the Maine memorabilia. What a wonderful hobby you have. My grandmother was married to a poor parson, but her father had been an architect. She had some lovely pieces of old sterling silver, but no complete sets at all. Just various pieces. One of my favorite had a buttercup encrusted handle; another, mother of pearl handled fruit knives.

    Bookmark   March 6, 2011 at 9:03PM
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jennifer_in_kansas

Gorgeous! Thanks for sharing - I had no idea silver patterns could be so ornate and beautiful.

    Bookmark   March 6, 2011 at 11:06PM
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zaadek_yahoo_com

So in my set I don't have the orange knives, fruit knives, and the pastry forks. Nor do I have the fish fork at this time. However, I would love to get just a set of 6 of these. I think they are some of the most beautiful items in solid silver I have ever seen. Just wanted to add that I do have 6 ice cream spoons (yes, the real ones) and 14 ice cream forks. (not bragging!)

Your photos of the service pieces are awesome.

There are: BonBon Scoops both with floral and w/o on bowls, 1 tine butter pick, carving sets, chop, roast, steak. Ham knife. I believe that the small ladle was also known as the mayonnaise ladle that you showed. Mustard spoon, Poultry shearsrelish fork. The large fork next to the asparagus fork should be a salad fork. Note: Replacements suggested there was a vegetable serving fork when in fact, Simpson never listed one. Master Salt, Salad Spoon, there is also a lettuce serving spoon which should be paired with the lettuce fork. Many people believe that the 8 7/8 large spoon is a berry. It is a vegetable serving spoon and Simpsn does show that item. There is an all silver pie knive. There are both oyster ladle and soup which I have and a punch ladle which I have seen which is 14 inches in lenghth and not the 12 1/2 which Replacement suggested. That is the larger soup ladle. I don't have it but would like to. Pieces I don't have are ice tongs, ice spoon, nut spoon and pea spoon. I don't have the lemon fork yet either. Most amazing serving pieces in the world!

PS Note that Replacement has a lot of "no monogrammed" items. Have you ever wondered how. Before shipping, they remove the monogram and polish the patina off of the old pieces they sell for hundreds of dollars. They ruin the item just before they ship it! So ebay allows better buys than Replacements. I always had a list of their inventory as I bidded on items on ebay to make sure I never paid more that what Replacement listed the same item for.

    Bookmark   March 7, 2011 at 7:54PM
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antiquesilver

Wow - that's an amazing number of ice cream spoons & forks! I want pictures as most of the time, I only see new production & cut up spoons. Most of my stuff is from ebay with some from antique shows; I stay away from the replacement services.

The mayo ladle is smaller than the old style cream ladle but larger than the mustard - I've only seen one of these years ago on ebay & I didn't win the auction, lots of cursing about that! My SIL has a bouillon ladle which is slightly longer than the gravy but more delicate in size. She also has an ice cream slice with a plated blade that's striking.

Do you have any of the old catalogs? I have a copy of a bad xerox that's undated & partly missing - but it's better than nothing! It shows several of the large serving spoons that are all about the same size & shape so it's nearly impossible to differentiate between berry & salad (& another one, I think but I'm not at home to check). The large fork that I call a veg. fork is probably newer production & is slightly different in proportion from the salad shown in my catalog.

Poultry shears - I'm envious but if you had a pea server or ice tongs, I'd been drooling! I used to have the all silver pie knife but sold it because the tip seemed too vulnerable to be used without damaging.

Have you seen the fruit or citrus knives in person? The handles are almost diamond shaped in profile & the detail is exquisite. The regular hollow handle knives are stunning but the small knives go a step beyond & are definately worth adding to your collection.

Please share photos - it's so great to see things that aren't shown that often.

    Bookmark   March 8, 2011 at 9:41AM
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zaadek_yahoo_com

The mayo/cream ladle that I have is unusual in that where there are normally the waves of water in the serving end, in this piece there is a smooth bowl apart from the lily flowers on the shoulders. I suspect people thought this was an error and so no one bidded against me. I got the piece for 5.00 dollars. It is the only ladle, apart from the mustard spoon where the bowl is smooth. I believe the piece is about 5 inches in length.

When I approached this set, I had first read a couple of books on old silver, each one stating that the older patterns were really difficult to find. So I decided I would buy what I saw when I saw it. DId not expect to find much and planned on being happy with the basic 4 or 6 piece place setting. I was surprised to see how much actually showed up on ebay. I just figured I would buy what I saw and hoped I could finish the piece. I did buy a few things from dealers, but I mainly used their list to judge whether things on ebay were getting too expensive. On one occasion, I wanted the sardine fork. This person "bamanurs" scooped in and took it on ebay. I went to he dealer and bought it for 65.00 less.

I understand someone had been making pieces from molds of the major floral patterns, Frontenac being one of them. Lily-Whiting was the other and others. I understood that these items were always larger and more weightier than the original. So in regards to the catalogue pages I have, I used them as a resource. Like the fork you have, the salad fork is suppose to be 8 7/8 in lenghth. They have been also measured at 8 5/8. In fact, some dealer told me that the smaller size was a beef fork. I bought it but I then later saw other dealers had had this with a spoon calling it a salad set. I have the salad fork and spoon which re 8 7/8 each.

The pie knife is an odd piece as I would never use it to cut into a pie plate with it. It is a pretty serving piece though and heavy. SHM did make a cake cutting knife which I have paired with the cake server (this is what everone calls a jelly cake knife) I do prefer listing items the way SHM listed them. I don't have it, but seen it, there is a jelly knife about 8 inches in legnth. You can tell the differnce between the berry spoon and the salad spoon because the salad spoon is about 2 3/8 inches wide. The berry and vegetable spoons are 2 7/8 inches wide. There is a salad spoon currently on ebay.

Replacements hads ice tongs in their inventory. I have seen one pea spoon on ebay but lost it in auction. There is also a sandwich/pastry tong which Replacement has for about 1100.00?

I am aware of the bouillon ladle and would like to add it at some point. I decided with Frontenac I needed to get basic items to pull together a set. But as I contnued on this journey, I was able to get items, I never expected to have. I have a wish list which I keep to myself but I can say right now that I have a fully viable service of Frontenac.

I have passed over the fruit knives and orange knives because I have never seen an orange knife until you showed yours and the fruit knives always come in single count. I imagine the handles are quite lovely in person. The carving pieces handles are amazing. They are thick and heavily detailed.

I will try to arrange for photos asap.

I guess you can tell, I love Frontenac!

    Bookmark   March 8, 2011 at 12:48PM
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antiquesilver

It's a lovable pattern, to be sure! I bought three orange knives because they were about $5 each (plated blades aren't great) & the fruit knives were advertised on ebay as butter knives. I'm sure people thought they were new & ignored them & I doubt if I paid more than $50 for the set. I'm not sure they were ever used & the blades were so good I actually tested them with a magnet to be sure they weren't sterling, too.

    Bookmark   March 8, 2011 at 1:08PM
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zaadek_yahoo_com

OOPS, I see R L is on this site. It does not change the ewxperiences I have had with their inventory or customer service issues.

    Bookmark   March 16, 2011 at 1:57PM
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antiquesilver

They advertise everywhere - so what?

    Bookmark   March 16, 2011 at 4:20PM
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Fori is not pleased

What? There's ads? Y'all need to upgrade your browsers if you're seeing advertisements here!

    Bookmark   March 16, 2011 at 4:59PM
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zaadek_yahoo_com

Hi,

Just reviewing the serving pieces you have in this. I am wondering how long the Vegetable Serving Fork is. It does look larger than the Asparagus Fork. Is that correct?

Thanks

    Bookmark   March 21, 2011 at 11:26AM
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antiquesilver

Hi Phillip,
I'm at work so I can't confirm the length of the Asparagus but notes I have on the Veg say that it's 9-1/8" x 2-1/2" with longer, tighter tines than the salad fk.
HTH,
Hester

    Bookmark   March 21, 2011 at 12:01PM
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zaadek_yahoo_com

I have been trying to locate additional information about Frontenac. I checked a listing of ads for International Silver and although they do range from 1914 through 1977, none had any listing of Frontenac. Does any know if Frontenac fell out of favor before the 50's when all Art Nouveau patterns were on the decline. Cleary, in these examples, the patterns are much more simple and linear. i.e Royal Danish, Prelude, Joan of Arc.

    Bookmark   April 27, 2011 at 1:49PM
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richard1959

Hi, just found this forum. Am also a Frontenac collector. Started when I found a basic set in about 1981. My focus has been on serving pieces. In place pieces I have the basics and am trying for one example each of the very unusual forms. Must admit that we almost never use the stuff but I love it. One of the great nouveau silver patterns made in America. My question for you all is has anyone ever seen the lettuce spoon in person? I have looked for one since I got a copy of the catalog about 25 years ago. Am also missing the ice and pea spoons and some parts of some of the carving sets. Have one piece that I have only seen one example of and not illustrated. It is a cucumber server? smaller than the tomatoe illustrated in the catalog and with curved tines comming off the side of the bowl rather than the front, with typical Frontenac piercing.

    Bookmark   April 29, 2011 at 1:54AM
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richard1959

Sorry for the mixup in my last post. The cucumber is illustrated in the catalog. It has tines on the front of the bowl and is not all that rare based on Ebay listings. The piece that I described which has tines on the side of the bowl and is smaller than the cucumber may be a tomato. Any firm info?

    Bookmark   April 29, 2011 at 2:18AM
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antiquesilver

Tomato servers are usually larger than cucumber & I've not seen one in Frontenac. I vaguely remember seeing one like you describe - probably on ebay - but I don't remember the purpose; I'll check my records when I get home today & hopefully I kept info on it. Was the center area only about the size of a quarter?

    Bookmark   April 29, 2011 at 1:39PM
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richard1959

I agree that generally the cucumber is the smaller piece. I cant find my copy of the frontenac catalog at the moment but I am fairly sure that the piece with tines on the front is listed as a cucumber. Several are on Ebay now. It is 6 1/2 inches long and about 2 1/2 inches wide. The piece I mentioned with tines on the side is 5 1/2 inches long with a round flat bowl 2 1/4 inches wide the tines are only about 1/4 inches long, curved down slightly toward the handle and there are 8 of them. The handle on the mystery piece is also smaller than that on the larger piece (kind of like a teaspoon vs a 5 o clock) The piercing in the center of the two pieces is very different so the smaller could not have been made from the larger. You might have seen the mystery piece on Ebay as that is where I bought it.

    Bookmark   April 30, 2011 at 12:04AM
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antiquesilver

The description of the one like yours that I copied from ebay (in 2008)says it's for sardines & I think that's a possibility. Maybe it was used as a lifter in conjunction with the sardine fork. Why don't you post a photo so everyone can see what this rarity looks like!

Concerning the difference between a tomato & a cuke server, perhaps I wasn't clear. I've never seen a tomato server in Frontenac & the top-toothed server is listed as Cucumber in my catalog although it's certainly sized more appropriatedly for tomatoes. I need to go through some of my other pattern catalogs because I vaguely remember seeing both pieces in whatever pattern & the tomato was the smaller of the two. Maybe they served a lot of cherry tomatoes!

    Bookmark   May 2, 2011 at 9:46AM
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antiquesilver

Richard,
I went through my turn-of-the-century catalogs & didn't find any particular emerging pattern for these servers, except ALL mfgrs seemed to make at least 2 sizes & many were used for both purposes.

Virginiana-Sliced Tomato or Cucumber-lg w/side teeth & small w/o teeth.

Buttercup (no photo)-Sliced Tomato-Lg & Small

Durgin Chrysanthemum-Small Cucumber, Lg Cucumber, & a much larger Tomator Server w/side comb-type teeth (looks more like a macaroni server)

Iris-2 small Cucumber styles, 1 large Cucumber (matching one of the smaller ones), 1 Large tomato-none have teeth

New Art-Lg comb-type Tomato Server & 2 Lg Cucumbers

Intaglio, Les Cinq, LeParisienne - no photos but described as Small Tomato Server, hand pierced

Gorham Poppy-Sliced Tomato or Cucumber, round, no teeth & looks to be relatively small

Watson Orchid-Tomato Server, Lg & Small, no teeth.

I wish someone would chime in who has a Simpson, Hall & Miller catalog - maybe Stratford or a more complete Frontenac.

In Orchid, there is a piece listed as a CHEESE SERVER that's very similar to the Frontenac mystery piece. It appears to be smaller than their small tomato server & has teeth on the side.

HTH

    Bookmark   May 3, 2011 at 1:07PM
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richard1959

Thanks for the info. I may try to get a photo but I will have to learn how first. The mystery piece is different from the sardine which is a wide, shallow fork with tines facing forward. It seems reasonable that both a large and a small server for sliced cold veggies were made in Frontenac, one with tines on front and the smaller with tines to the side. While it seems reasonable to us today, given the relative sizes of modern veggies, to call the larger a tomato and the smaller a cucumber maybe they just switched the names or maybe the two pieces were produced at very different times and both were originally named the same. Till a more complete catalog turns up the mystery remains. Question remains, has anyone ever actually seen a lettuce spoon? Richard

    Bookmark   May 6, 2011 at 10:46PM
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paige16

What would the best way be to identify a sterling Reed & Barton pattern from the 1940's? Its very ornate with what look like to possibly be apples on it.

    Bookmark   May 9, 2011 at 8:19AM
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lindac

If you post a picture here, someone may know.
Lacking that you can search Replacements.com.
Linda C

    Bookmark   May 9, 2011 at 1:22PM
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paige16

To lindac,
Thank you for responding. I will try to post a picture when my computer literate daughter is here this weekend. I went on to the replacements site but I don't see how to identify a pattern shows there. I am trying to sell this silver for a friend and trying to figure out the best way possible. I am near NYC so there are options there but I don't know if I should do it that way or at auction but I don't think Ebay.

    Bookmark   May 11, 2011 at 8:29AM
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antiquesilver

I'm betting it's Francis I.

Here is a link that might be useful: replacements

    Bookmark   May 11, 2011 at 10:39AM
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paige16

To antiquesilver,
Does Francis I have what look like little(possibly) apples on it? I tried replacements but found it difficult to see small detail.

    Bookmark   May 12, 2011 at 8:55AM
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antiquesilver

Paige, I'm not sure - I'm guessing. It's a multi-motif pattern & I believe it has fruit on it but I don't have any of it to inspect. Did you click on the Replacements photo to enlarge it? And does the overall pattern look similar to yours?

    Bookmark   May 12, 2011 at 10:54AM
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antiquesilver

This is a link to the SilverQueen matching service showing a better photo of some of the different fruit motifs. The notation below the photo says there are 15 different motifs.

Here is a link that might be useful: Francis I

    Bookmark   May 12, 2011 at 11:07AM
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zaadek_yahoo_com

I don't believe a tomato server was designed and produced in Frontenac. I have been looking and recently came across some listings of items being sold in 1910 and 1914. There was a line for Tomato Servers but only one pattern was indicated to have one made. Frontenac, on the same page was blank. Not sure why it would not have been produced in this as well as the other patterns on the page.

    Bookmark   May 12, 2011 at 1:57PM
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antiquesilver

Richard, sorry but I've never seen a lettuce spoon in person but I'm sure I've seen them on ebay. If I can find my photo of the mystery server, I'll try to post it next week. It looks like a beautiful piece - no matter what its use - & one any collector would be proud to own; I'm envious!

    Bookmark   May 12, 2011 at 2:34PM
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paige16

To antique silver,
I have determined it is Francis I. Thank you so much for that but now I'm confused. If one collects this pattern do they pick a certain fruit for it. I'm also wondering if replacements is the best way to sell it. I sold them china years ago but silver seems to still be popular so there may be other routes.

    Bookmark   May 13, 2011 at 7:34AM
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lindac

Each pattern piece has a different fruit....I think there are 15 in all.
Replacements won't give you top dollar...only about 2/3 of what you might sell it for elsewhere.Silver Queen also buys silver.....check what they will give you.
Why do you want to sell it?
Linda C

    Bookmark   May 13, 2011 at 9:05AM
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zaadek_yahoo_com

Richard,

I think you have what is considered an individual cheese/tomato server--the small piece. I believe early on Replacements had one of these and listed it as a bon bon scoop at 5 1/2 inches. As I stated earlier, I have not found that SHM produced tomato servers in Frontenac. By the time the first world war was over, silver companies had started to cut their inventories in what would be offered to the public. I noted also that there was no punch ladle made in Frontenac either.
As a matter of fact there were only 3 patterns on the page of nine that even offered this piece. There was a "punch ladle" on ebay over a year ago that sold for about 1100.00. I bidded and then backed away. The weight of the pieces as well as the shape and size of the bowl concerned me. As I recall, the handle was completely straight. I suspect someone forced the handle and stem straight to make up the 14 inch length. The soup ladle that I have is very heavy and the bowl measures 4 inches across. This pieces is 12 1/4 inches long. I believe this is why SHM chose not to issue one in this pattern.

In regards to the Lettuce Fork, there is one currently on ebay. In regards to the lettuce set, Replacement had one, so far the only one I've seen, and I purchased it when it was on sell there. The fork is 8 3/4 inches long and the spoon is 9 1/4 in length. You can go to the site and find a picture of it under no monogram items.

    Bookmark   May 13, 2011 at 1:00PM
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paige16

To lindac,
It belongs to a friend who inherited it from her parents,doesn't like it and is also quite sick and will most likely never have a need for it and could use the money. That is amazing to know that each piece is a different fruit. I would never have figured that out and would have driven myself crazy trying to think if I had the right pattern. Thank you again.

    Bookmark   May 14, 2011 at 8:04AM
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zaadek_yahoo_com

To paige 16.

The overall design concept is that there are a total of 15 variations of the fruit clusters found in a complete set of Francis First. Forks would have one group, spoons, another, serving pieces another. So if you purchased every place piece and every serving piece offered, you would have all 15 fruit groupings.

    Bookmark   May 16, 2011 at 1:24PM
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paige16

To PWebb,
Its a great concept in marketing. Thank you for further enlightening me. Some of the pieces I have seem impractical for today's lifestyles but judging from this post there are clearly silver lovers out there. I just have to search around to figure out how to get the best price for my friend.

    Bookmark   May 17, 2011 at 6:49AM
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zaadek_yahoo_com

To paige 16

Yes it is true that most of those items really have no place on current tables for most of us. I think that collecting is so important rather than just melting the stuff down. I have bought items in my set because they were available for purchase. I did not expect to have the number of place pieces or serving pieces that I have. That is why I am thankful that Ebay does exist. I am sure that it it did not, I would not have had the set that I was abel to put together. The writes of the silver books said it was a hard pattern to collect. It really would have been had it not been for Ebay.

This is our history and heritage. It is beautiful art as well. Just remember that some companies have given up trying to reproduce some of the "vintage patterns". Its because those men that created those early pieces were craftsmen. Just think, the silver companies as we knew them vitrually don't exist any more. They have been sucked up into holes and are no more than another part of a holding company. The people that own them at this point really don't understand or appreciate good American Silver. The younger people are there just because it is a job.

Replacements does think it is doing the customer a favor by buying their silver. They are not all that honest either. I have tried selling there and found that they do try to take advantage of the original owner but make pretty good profits off of what you have sold to them. Be careful when you negotiate value with some of the folks out there.

    Bookmark   May 17, 2011 at 1:56PM
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antiquesilver

Paige,
IMO, ebay is a great venue for selling flatware, probably as individual pieces or x number of forks, spoons, etc rather than a full set. Francis I is widely collected & older pieces in good condition are far more desirable than the newer, poorly finished silver.

Take good photos (front, back, & detail) & list accurate descriptions complete with sizes (to measure, lay the piece upside down on a ruler), monograms, & any flaws. If you have any serving pieces that need identification, we can probably help.

    Bookmark   May 17, 2011 at 3:53PM
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antiquesilver

This is a photo of a listing I saved from ebay in 2008 that may be the same as the mystery tomato/cheese server.


The ebay description shows it as being 5-1/2" long & 2-1/4" wide.

    Bookmark   May 19, 2011 at 11:28AM
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zaadek_yahoo_com

It is definitely an individual tomato/cheese server.

    Bookmark   May 19, 2011 at 2:14PM
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antiquesilver

I would agree that it's most likely for tomato/cuke or cheese but not to be used as an individual place piece. The serving piece would deposit the food on the diner's plate but there's no way or use (that I know of) a piece like this could be used to consume, spread, or cut food into bit size morsels. With a few exceptions, most of the food-specific Victorian pieces were extremely well suited for the intended purpose but this piece won't fly as a place piece.

Many times, smaller serving pieces were used with the luncheon service (primarily for the ladies, I suspect) because they were better scaled than for the larger sized dinner service. Smaller hands, smaller portions & daintier foods, smaller plates, smaller forks & knives - smaller serving pieces.

    Bookmark   May 19, 2011 at 3:16PM
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theresastephanie

oh my gosh how beautiful! This is the pattern I collect too. Can you tell me any tips on where to buy more pieces?

    Bookmark   September 4, 2011 at 2:26PM
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antiquesilver

Most of mine came from ebay during the late 1990's although antique shows & malls are usually good sources, too.

    Bookmark   September 6, 2011 at 3:29PM
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antiquesilver

A heads up to those of you checking ebay for Frontenac. This seller has 12 spoons, 12 heavy dinner forks, butter spreaders, & 3 old knives that are NOT advertised as Frontenac. At least one of the forks has a repair on the back & you need to be diligent in finding out if others are damaged as he's selling them in groups of 4 but apparently used the same photos for all 3 listings. I called the repair to his attention but he doesn't seem to understand that he needs to clarify the situation. I have no connection with this seller or auction.

Good luck to those bidding & let us know if you win!

Here is a link that might be useful: ronmar22's frontenac listings

    Bookmark   September 14, 2011 at 9:10AM
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antiquesilver

Did any of the Frontenac addicts on this forum win the auction(s)?????????

    Bookmark   September 19, 2011 at 4:26PM
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lindac

I thought the silver went for a real bargain....Iw as sorely tempted....but thought "Linda, not ANOTHER pattern"....hope iot went to a good home....beautiful stuff!
Linda C

    Bookmark   September 19, 2011 at 6:44PM
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