Oops - I did something confusing - a few of the dimensions drawn are exterior, not interior. Thickness of the walls is 4.5 inches, so subtract 4.5'' or 9.0'' as appropriate and these dimensions should add up correctly. (I'm too woozy to check, seem to have caught a bug on the flight home last night, so going to bed.)

Just got an email from Ellen--she LOVES what you guys have come up with already, and is super grateful for your help. She can't believe a place like this exists. She and her mom are talking over the options, and she might be persuaded to go without an eat in, but she's considering all the possibilities.

johnliu, super cool. What program are you using?

OK, stupid question--I'm slow to catch the drift, and should've put this in my previous post.

johnliu's and buehl's plans are similar, the biggest differences being angled refridge and range vs. having them both in-line. I'm trying to work out the pros and cons of each.

I think John's drawing needs to be updated to reflect the correct measurements to determine feasibility. E.g., the long wall's dimensions are 43" segment where he has 49.5", 45" or 48" where he as 49", 51" where he has 47". On the short wall, things might change if the windows change size/location, but right now it's 22" + 40" + 23" + 38" + 13", etc....all the walls are off. I know he mentions some mistakes in his dimensions, but until it's redone, we won't know if it will really work.

To be honest, I'm too tired tonight to re-work the design to see if it would work. Unfortunately, I'm working the Snack Bar all day & evening at my son's school for a county event tomorrow, so I won't have time to work on it.. I can check back late tomorrow night, but no promises! I may find time Sunday evening (Church, basketball, and more basketball Sunday morning & afternoon!)

I re-drew the measurements, using only interior dimensions this time. Before, some of the measurements included the thickness of the wall. I think the dimensions check out.

The filler for the refrigerator might have to be larger depending on how much the door can open into the dining room doorway. This might be one time that you'd prefer a full-depth refrigerator.

If the window on the left (range) wall is narrowed a bit, it would allow a 36'' range, or permit a 30'' range to have more landing space on the right. But that small benefit may not justify the cost.

The window on the bottom (sink) wall is not ideally located. A bigger window, shifted towards the refrigerator a bit, would look better (I think). But, again, the benefit may not justify the cost. Currently, the window fits in the existing door opening.

A square or rectangular table, like marcolo showed, would be more useful, if it fits. Because it will be counter-height and actually useful work space, the cook might find herself using the table as much an island as a dine-and-dash spot. I might actually put the table on lockable casters, and pull it to the center of the room for dinner parties. People can stand at it and drink wine.

The hall door should go away or at least not swing into the kitchen. Give it a window if collisions are a concern.

That silly arched motif to the upper cab and range hood - ignore it. I was trying to match them to make the range's corner location look better. Which I still think should be tried, but what I drew is not the answer.

Since I'm suggesting keeping the period look and feel of the kitchen, the link below is to an apropos article about 1920's era kitchen remodels.

I haven't had time to look carefully at the other plans, but I think there are several alternatives in this thread that will all work fine.

Here is a link that might be useful: Sensitive To History

I use Sketchup on a Mac. Forgot to answer you, marcolo.

All of the ref at dining room corner plans seem to be moving the entrance to the dining room? I don't know if that's a mistake or not.

The thing I don't like about that ref position is that it blocks the dining room entrance when open. It's not a big deal but might be a consideration if the dining room is used for daily meals or entertaining.

It is fun to see how everyone's ideas are coming together for this "tiny" twenties kitchen. It is starting to feel not so tiny after all. I'm glad to hear that the owner is getting inspired.

To keep some of the existing 1920s cottage vibe, it might be a good idea to keep the sink in its existing location under the valance. (It doesn't make sense to keep the valance without a sink located under it; and it will save a little money on plumbing costs.) The window centered symmetrically on an exterior wall seems to be one of the most common features of 1920s kitchens that gives them a feeling distinctive from post-1945 kitchens. I love buehl's plans; but johnliu's plan without the sink and range on a diagonal seems like a more efficient use of space and more authentic to the 1920s feel of the kitchen. I agree with bmorepanic that having the fridge open in front of the dining room door could cause congestion.

If the owner wants a little seating area in the kitchen it would be nice at least to find room for a little two-top table for the kids to sit at for breakfast or a snack.

Below is a link to the pull out types of table I mentioned just to give you an idea - some of what I saw was more functional, but at least you get the idea.

http://www.handcraftedtable.com/Hutches/Thumbs/Pullout-console-table-w-hut.jpg

http://www.ashecountyrealestate.com/images/properties/P138/P138 Kitchen.JPG

http://img2.timeinc.net/toh/i/a/kitchens/eat-in-kitchens-02.jpg

http://www.artfactory.com/images/Pull-Out-Table-Kit.jpg

I'm a little late coming in on this but after reading almost all of the posts I have to say that I love the original kitchen the best but realize that it needs updating. I would go with buehl's option 1 or 2 but remove the hallway door and switch the window and back door. The amount of counter space on either side of the sink is adequate for prepping. I understand why she does not want to give up the eat in kitchen with small kids. I know the table will be in the way of the back door but nothings perfect and I think it would look really cute and definitely appropriate for the period of the house. Having grown up in a 1920's house with an original kitchen with similar issues I wouldn't trade it.

GW is just full of strikingly intelligent people.
Wow, Wow, Wow!!!!!

buehl, you have been more than generous with your time! I'd love for you to revisit these plans when it works for your schedule. She's not demo'ing this week or anything, she just wants some ideas in hand to price out her options. As far as angled sinks and ranges (which was my idea in the first place), I've been in kitch*ens where they looked very convenient, esp. for a singled cook. However, my friend's mom has an angled sink, and finds it frustrating that no one can get to the trash/dishwasher if someone is at the sink. It may still prove to be the best option, though.

johnliu, thanks for updating. She'll have to close up or shorten windows almost no matter what she does. Moving them presents a problem because the house is a brick Tudor on the outside; more money for the mason. I had actually forgotten that side of the house is brick, for some reason I thought the sides were clapboard. Also, FWIW, the view out that window isn't very nice, though the view out to her back yard over the current sink is wooded and pretty.

bmorepanic, the idea of their noses colliding with the refridge door, even a French style, is a concern. I think buehl's layout puts more space between the refridge and the DR door

francoise, I agree, the centered sink looks most authentic. That position works best if she sacrifices an eat-in area.

debelli those are genius!!! I should also say she loved the cottage kitchen with the passthrough arch you posted earlier.

altagirl, I agree she's going to have to accept chairs in the way if she wants eat-in. If the kitchen were bigger, I think I'd counsel her to leave the entire sink wall entirely as is and add function elsewhere, just to keep the '20s vibe.

boxerpups--no kidding!!!

Oh, I have one more photo for your amusement I forgot to post--it's her vintage electric stove. If it were gas, I'd advise her to keep and restore it. Anybody know where to sell a cute old electric stove?

{{!gwi}}

"Anybody know where to sell a cute old electric stove?"

marcolo, you can buy and sell them over at StoveList, link below...

Here is a link that might be useful: StoveList electric stove classifieds

Just critiquing my layout here:

1. The refrigerator is a compromise. Putting it in the corner maximizes counter, but reduces clearance to fully open the door. In the lower-right corner, the dining room passageway helps the clearance, but how much is traffic blocked?

Well, when the refrigerator door is open, someone is standing or stooping in front of it. That person, not the door, will be the main traffic impediment. Regardless of whether the refrigerator is 12'' or 24'' from the dining room wall, due to the aisle formed by the eat-in table/stools.

Still, you'd want the optimal refrigerator. A French door model won't block traffic as much as a left-hinged model, given narrower doors. (I think maybe 8-10'' of the 40'' passage could potentially be blocked.) A side-by-side with left freezer will be even less obstructive, as the freezer door is less-used. A right-hinged model is too awkward. A narrower unit will fit better (I drew a 35'' wide).

2. The dishwasher next to the refrigerator could be a problem in a rambunctious household, where people throw the refrigerator door open and hit the open dishwasher. Moving the dishwasher to the left wall has questionable aesthetics and the wash and prep zones are muddled instead of being clearly on opposite sides of the sink.

(The layout is meant to have the largest possible prep zone, plus a flow of ''get food -> prep -> cook -> serve -> wash up'' as you go clockwise, starting at the refrigerator and ending at the dishwasher.)

3. The range is in the corner and she's limited to a 30'' model. I'm not wild about this. But without moving or shrinking the window, there's only 43'' available for landing place + range + some gap between the overhead hood/cabinet and the window. If the bump-in that holds the ironing board were removed, that would add 12''.

(I realized that marcolo's friend may not do much frying or woking - guessing from the electric range - and has gotten by with no vent hood. If that doesn't bother her, perhaps the range could go under the left wall window, centered on the counter run, with no hood - or just a little one concealed behind the valance, which I would sure keep if it were my decision. This messes up the logic/flow of the zones, but could be prettier and keeps all the upper cabinets.)

4. Compared to the existing layout, half the upper cabinet storage is gone, and the base cabinet storage is only increased a little (approximately 30 linear inches?) which includes the dreaded inside corner.

5. When people are sitting at the table, or when the table is pulled out to be workspace, traffic flow through the kitchen will be obstructed. I can't find any way around that.

Anyway, I like your friend's kitchen, it is cute as heck and I hope she preserves that character.

The room is not that small, after all. I'm actually leaning in favor of the ''eat-in'' feature, because it is a nice-to-have, we've got multiple...

UPDATE II

Ok, she loves all the options she's seeing in this thread. Right now, she's talking to various cabinet companies and contractors to get ideas and preliminary estimates.

But now she wants to do something a little different with the layout:

1. Start with johnliu's layout
2. Keep the sink in its original position, if possible, but have the stove right next to it
3. Put in an island for prep and seating. It can be a moveable island; she has a vintage bench somewhere that could be modified to work if it fits
4. Open up most of the wall between the living room and dining room. She wants to keep some of the wall there on each side, and put in a little arch that mirrors the other '20s architecture in the house

What do you think? Is this crazy or possible?

right next to it where?

The range would be in the corner, as it is in johnliu's plan. The sink would remain in its original position. That arrangement only remotely works with an island for prep, naturally.

How much straight counter workspace b/w the range & sink....I had only 24" in my old kitchen and absolutely hated it...it was one of the #1 reasons for my remodel (tied w/the cabinets falling apart...the two #1 reasons). I was constantly juggling dishes, ingredients, tools/utensils, small appliances, etc. in that small space. I now have 41+ inches and feel like I'm in heaven! :-)

The space b/w the range and sink is prime prep space and is the last place where workspace should be skimped on.

I recommend at least 36". Here's what the NKBA says about it: 12: Preparation/Work Area

Include a section of continuous countertop at least 36" wide x 24" deep immediately next to a sink for a primary preparation/work area.

Here is a link that might be useful: NKBA: 12: Preparation/Work Area

You mean with only those 9" b/w the wall & range?

*Sigh*

Oh, and what about the extra room needed to allow the refrigerator door to open fully (probably around 12" needed)...I can't tell how much JohnLiu has there, but it doesn't look like 12". If there's no sink there, then could the refrigerator be moved over? However, if the the wall to the DR is going to be expanded "down" so that the refrigerator opens into the DR doorway...then you won't need that "filler"

I know. I think she will pay attention to refridge door clearances, because she has that problem now, and is sick of it. I wish the range and refridge could be swapped in johnliu's plan, but there isn't enough room.

In any case, she might be persuaded to put the sink further away from the range. The real question is, can she possibly fit an island with seating, even with the wall mostly gone?

I also understand her wanting a t*ble in the k^tchen.

she needs an old time k^tchen t*ble with the drop side on it.
with the side down it'd fit against the wall and wouldn't be in a traffic way.
it'd fit fine in the upper right corner - to the right of the hall doorway.

samples at link and

http://chicago.craigslist.org/wcl/clt/1654876629.html

Here is a link that might be useful: table

I don't think we know where the living room or dining room walls are, relative to the kitchen? Can you post a sketch?

I don't think there is enough room for the sink in it's current location and the range next to it, not with comfortable landing places and prep zones and a dishwasher.

The DR is the wall with the door, the one that's not labeled hall door. The LR isn't an issue--it's on the other side of the house. This is a center-entrance colonial, at least on the inside.

I think she'll be forced to deal with sink position when she goes to buy cabinets, but the real question is whether an island with 4 seats will fit. My instant gut reaction was "no," but I'm not really positive.

Something like this? Narrow clearances around the seating...

Still... DW is in the way of both Prep & Cooking Zones
A lot of zone-crossing....Refrigerator to Range, cross in through the Cleanup Zone, Island to Range, cross in through the Cleanup Zone
Island verging on becoming a "barrier island" b/w the range and refrigerator
With no water in the island, it will unlikely be the main Prep Zone....that 24" over the DW is the "ideal" location for a Prep Zone right now...BUT, that DW is in the wan & there's only 24" there. Moving the sink down a few inches isn't going to help.
All the great workspace b/w the sink & refrigerator...and no range in "range"

*****

*****

If there's water in the island, it helps... Now, the island can be used as the main Prep Zone...
BUT, that pesky DW is still in the way!
Zone crossing still an issue as well

...Open up most of the wall between the living room and dining room. She wants to keep some of the wall there on each side, and put in a little arch that mirrors the other '20s architecture in the house ...

OK, I'm confused...if the LR wall isn't adjacent to the Kitchen, how will taking the wall b/w the LR & DR help the Kitchen??

I was going to suggest this for 4 seats....but now I think I have it all wrong!

I don't have Sketchup available right now.

But, maybe a peninsula coming from the wall to the right of the hall door. Bar style seating on the dining room side. Workspace on the kitchen side, maybe including a prep sink.

Or, if there is space and an adequate hood, put a cooktop there with drawers below . . . That leaves her sink where it currently is, prep space on either side, the cooktop isn't pushed into the corner. Wall ovens can go between refrigerator and DR wall, making better use of that filler space and assuring door swing clearance.

Some problems I see but maybe they can be ironed out:
- we're taking some room from the dining room. I'm not even sure the kitchen-dining common wall extends all the way to the wall where the hall door is?
- room for someone at the sink, someone at the range, and traffic from the hall?
- the island vent hood will block sight lines. I think this only works if she doesn't do a lot of smoky cooking, and can live with a too-high hood or (shudder) downdraft venting.
- I haven't checked dimensions, but there's probably only
bar seating for 3.

Need more info b/f I continue....location of LR/DR wall to be taken down

Is that wall on the right to come down at all?

TYPO! D'oh! I'm sorry! It was late when I posted my message.

buehl, you have it right--I meant to say the wall between the kitchen and the dining room. I was wondering why people kept bringing up the living room. LOL.

Also--I can see why she wants an island, in terms of the way it looks. But I look at these plans and wonder: Where do pots and pans go? Cooking utensils? Dishes? However, it's not my kitchen.

johnliu--I really do have to find some way to sketch before I buy a house (soon, I hope) and tackle my kitchen. On a Mac, it's tough--I don't know why, but there are very few programs, and none of the vendor software from Lowe's or Ikea works. Very irritating.

Anyway, yes, I was also wondering whether a peninsula jutting out from the hallway wall might be another approach for her to weigh. Although in that layout, the peninsula would jam up against the DR arch in the upper right corner of buehl's drawings.

OK, stop with the island. You convinced her when I couldn't--now she can see how disruptive of flow an island would be.

New wrinkle, though: A KD just told her that you can't have a ga s stove within 13" of a window opening in MA.

Is that 13" a restriction for a window that opens? Could she get a fixed/non-opening window instead?

That 13" restriction pretty much rules out the range on the left wall...assuming you don't want to put the range against the bottom wall & remove the left door completely....something I strongly discourage!

So, how about something like this...

If you make the window 36", then you have approx 19" b/w the range & window. But, I was trying to give you as big a window as I could in close to the same "space" as the current door.

marcolo, just download Sketchup and play. It is easy.

My iMac crashed. I had to replace the hard drive, and am currently reinstalling OS X and will have to restore from backup. So I won't be able to play w/ layouts for awhile.

Is it possible to open the kitchen-dining room doorway as much as buehl's latest layouts show? And is the dining room large enough to steal a couple of feet for the bar seating at a peninsula?

If yes, I will (eventually) try to sketch out the peninsula option. Devil's in the dimensions but it might be worth checking out, especially if local code won't let her place a range/cooktop within 13'' of a window and there's no way around it.

Also, if she's up for moving interior walls, can you find out if the hallway has to open into the kitchen? If the kitchen didn't have to accomodate the hall door and associated traffic, then more options are available. Same principle as closing off the deck door, which helped a lot.

Alternatively, can the hall door be shifted to the left (toward the current sink run) a foot or two?

I'm totally blown away by the amazing advice here! I couldn't even hope to add anything to that, but I just wanted to say that her kitchen looks pretty authentic and anything taken out you might want to donate to an architectural salvage place. Even if it's not in great shape, there are people out there who would treasure that ironing board built-in and those cabinets.

buehl, your layout #12 is pretty close to what I would do, personally, but she's really committed to an eat-in. I think she may end up with something like johnliu's with the window on the fridge wall, but either have to scootch the window a bit, or maybe use an induction range, which doesn't have location restrictions like a gas range does.

autumngal, that ironing board is staying!

Re. the gas stove in Massachusetts, I'd speak to her city inspector about that. We spoke with our city inspector (fairly large city in MA) about a similar situation. We spoke to the plumbing inspector because he's responsible for the plumbing and gas installations. In our city, a gas range counts as a gas installation. He said there is no rule regulating how close a gas range can be to a window.

Wow, this is what Garden Web is all about. What amazing ideas. I didn't have to time to read everything, but I found it fun to scroll down....it started with no walls or anything being moved, by the time I got almost to the end, the wall to the dining room was down, the door and windows are different. See? We shouldn't be so set on what we want when we start these things--open minds bring really great ideas.

You guys are great. I almost can't wait until we have to move and I get to start over!

What about Layout #4?

I'm afraid she's going to trade one problem for another...no room for refrigerator door to open to not enough workspace or emergency landing space to the right of the range. Bumping elbows on the wall. Little or no room for pan handles on the right. If pans w/handles on the right, no work room at all (and 9" isn't that much anyway.)

If I had to choose one, I would pick the refrigerator issue b/c it's not an every day issue. She may think the 9" is OIK, but she hasn't worked with it yet...and it will be a daily issue...or at least every time she uses the range.

I suggest she measure out 9" to see how small it really is to work at or be emergency landing space.

BTW...Remember what the NKBA says: Include a minimum of 12" of landing area on one side of a cooking surface and 15" on the other side.

If the cooking surface is at a different countertop height than the rest of the kitchen then the 12" and 15" landing areas must be at the same height as the cooking surface.

For an enclosed configuration, a reduction of clearances shall be in accordance with the appliance manufacturerÂs instructions or per local codes. (This may not provide adequate landing area.)

These are all wonderful ideas and very inspirational....but exactly what kind of tight budget are we talking about here? In my area, moving around doors and windows, and adding in masonry work, isn't cheap, unless you're using unlicensed/uninsured handymen.

Good question, jkom51. I think my friend is in that phase everyone goes through--finding out exactly what her money will buy, before setting a final budget. It's like a cycle: get a price, adjust the budget, re-price, and start again. This isn't a 5K budget, but on the other hand, it's much smaller than many budgets posted here. The final figure is TBD.

In the pictures, the present table seating looks like it barely works. Is she happy with how that functions now? If not, I would suggest that she needs to consider moving the two interior doors. Can you draw the layout showing the rooms that are on the other side of the two interior walls? If she could move the 2 doors in those 2 walls to the right or left along most of the length of the 2 walls, that would open up the possibility of a MUCH nicer eating area. And the L-shaped cabinet runs could be worked out easily.

Anne

Is there such a thing as a refrigerator with sliding glass doors that could work in this situation?

There are commercial coolers and freezers with sliding glass doors.

They are usually called ''merchandisers'' - you've bought soda, ice cream, etc from them. However, they are separate units (not ''dual-temp'' i.e. combined cooler/freezer) and each is at least 24'' wide so put two together and you're taking up a lot of space. They are also not particularly energy efficient, being glass-fronted. They are also on the noisy side, and lack residential conveniences (the interiors are simply shelves, with no crispers, bins, ice maker, chilled water, etc).

There are dual-temp swing-door commercial refrigerators that are potentially small enough for this kitchen, with doors that open to 90 degrees without needing extra side clearance. Google True T23DT for an example. Same issues of noise and conveniences.

I'm planning to use commercial refrigerators, but I think most people would prefer a residential refrigerator.

What about a side-by-side fridge with an alternate hinge pattern? Northlake makes 'em:

Here is a link that might be useful: Northlake fridge

NorthLAND. *ahem* Not Eastlake either, although that would be a fridge I'd love to see.

Wow, that is a cool refrigerator.

Finally got my iMac up and running again, so here is a quick sketch of the peninsula idea. If it's even feasible, that is.

Cooktop and raised bar seating in peninsula, encroaching on the dining room. Ventilation not figured out. The landing space by the cooktop can be larger, if the aisle can be smaller or the refrigerator shallower. Wall ovens by the refrigerator, this requires the refrigerator to be shifted over, which needs the kitchen/dining door enlarged in order to work. Sink in the existing spot. Dishwasher probably on the right of the sink.

Some challenges to this layout, but thought it was worth throwing out there.

Look at Bmorepanic's layout on Fri, Mar 12, 10 at 12:09; it has a similar layout for a range on that wall...only with more work room. You really need more than 12" next to a doorway for safety's sake. While 12" may be Code, that doesn't mean it's best, especially if you have/are planning to have gas. There also isn't much workspace room overall next to it...I know it's better than what she currently has, but that doesn't mean it's enough or that it can't be even better.

Another consideration...be sure to have at least a 24" overhang if you have the range (or cooktop) in that location. I do not recommend seating behind a range or cooktop, but if you insist on doing it, at least make it safe!

Venting will also be an issue...for truly adequate venting, you need an overhead range hood...in this case, you'll need an "island range hood". [The majority of downdrafts are ineffective. Telescoping downdrafts are better, but then you have a vent in front of anyone sitting there and it's only effective for items right next to it and shorter than it by several inches.]

About island range hoods...

First, island range hood's are more expensive than wall hoods.

Second, an island hood will hang down in front of anyone working or sitting there, will block the view to/from the DR & Kitchen, and will put the noise of a hood in your visitor's ears...and if you put in a raised bar, it's even worse b/c your visitors will be sitting another 6" higher and closer to the hood.

Third, island range hoods need to be larger and/or stronger than wall hoods b/c of the increased air currents...meaning more $$ and more noise. Noise can be cut down by getting an even stronger hood and running it on low, but that adds yet more $$$

Fourth, that hood hanging down will most likely be a "commanding presence"...unless you get a low profile hood (meaning a thin hood) and/or glass (which means cleaning it often)...but those hoods have even less capture capability b/c there's no place to trap smoke/steam/grease/odors/etc. for venting out...so that means an even larger hood and more power and probably mounting even lower. IMHO, it's made even worse b/c the area is so small...a large hood will overwhelm that small peninsula.

There are three main differences b/w BmorePanic's layout & JohnLiu's: Seating on the DR side of the kitchen. Is there room to take 24" of counter + seating space out of it? I can't tell from the pictures.
Refrigerator location...I like John's location better b/c it puts it on the periphery and allows outsiders to get to it w/o interfering with those working in the kitchen
DW location....I like Bmorepanic's better...it keeps the DW out of the Cooking Zone and out of the best Prep Zone...also across from the range.

Why is that the best Prep Zone? Two reasons:

(1) Because it's directly across from the range so going back & forth is easier and

(2) It's out of traffic coming in/out of the kitchen. ...